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So this seems like an idea for which support is growing: (Original Post) applegrove Dec 2019 OP
I have been listening to this. I like the sound of this. Lexee Dec 2019 #1
Yes. It is an interesting idea. applegrove Dec 2019 #2
Constitution flat out says that after impeachment by Congress,articles "shall be" sent to the Senate wishstar Dec 2019 #3
It does not define *when* it shall be sent and Moscow Mitch has no room to talk after SC withheld uponit7771 Dec 2019 #4
Yep Cosmocat Dec 2019 #8
Not so fast. Why give up a bargaining chip without getting something for it? brush Dec 2019 #59
As lawyer, I note, 'shall' in the legal lexicon can be very complicated. empedocles Dec 2019 #29
Hmm. Really? Shall means 'will'. louis-t Dec 2019 #52
Shall may mean will. Also, in Constitutional law a given word or phrase is not set in empedocles Dec 2019 #53
So, why not keep investigating? Re-writing? Taking procedural votes? TruckFump Dec 2019 #30
The easy delay is just holding up the vote FBaggins Dec 2019 #34
If it's withheld from the Senate there's no need for the Dem senate candidates... brush Dec 2019 #60
no, it does not Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #36
True - but the effect is the same FBaggins Dec 2019 #43
the Senate cannot try an impeachment that has not happened Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #44
Who will stop them? It becomes a political dispute at that point. tritsofme Dec 2019 #45
who will stop them from nuking the House? Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #46
Well, McConnell doesn't have the codes. tritsofme Dec 2019 #47
There's no question that delaying a vote would delay any trial FBaggins Dec 2019 #49
the House has the sole power of impeachment Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #56
Your first and third sentences are correct... the second is flat wrong. FBaggins Dec 2019 #57
Just as the WH "shall" hand over documents lame54 Dec 2019 #42
Constitution ALSO says the Senate "shall" advise and consent on Supreme Court nominees... TygrBright Dec 2019 #51
No it doesn't n/t FBaggins Dec 2019 #54
You mean like MFM008 Dec 2019 #58
The ONLY support that matters is among the house leadership. Hortensis Dec 2019 #5
Really? (Your last paragraph). That would be very Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #14
Far, far too many to name or know, and they don't Hortensis Dec 2019 #22
Interesting. But actually quite scary. That if there Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #25
Terrible idea Kentonio Dec 2019 #6
Yep Cosmocat Dec 2019 #9
I wonder............ MyOwnPeace Dec 2019 #10
Agree. This is a bad idea. I understand why it wnylib Dec 2019 #12
I think we need to stop all this political posturing... worrying Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #16
Yes, we need to stop giving armchair advice on tactics wnylib Dec 2019 #19
It's not like they listen to our advise. Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #26
They do solicit feedback on issues, in polls wnylib Dec 2019 #39
80% of Democrats wanted trump impeached in Dec 2018. Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #40
Were you among that 80%? wnylib Dec 2019 #41
Of course...but not the point. Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #50
They should now keep it duforsure Dec 2019 #7
Trump want's a Show Trial through the year if he can get it... MartyTheGreek Dec 2019 #11
NO. Do it and hang it on every R senators neck .... Mustellus Dec 2019 #13
One "pro" to this is that supposedly McConnell wants Laura PourMeADrink Dec 2019 #15
Somebody (L. Tribe?) had an interesting idea: lastlib Dec 2019 #17
It may be growing among some people. But not among those that actually make this decision onenote Dec 2019 #18
Totally agree, 100%. You said it so much better wnylib Dec 2019 #20
Exactly...Dumpster's crew would Love this..the ads write themselves AncientGeezer Dec 2019 #35
Isn't that caving to them? treestar Dec 2019 #21
I'm thinking this might be the right thing to do and, in the meantime, pursue those Vinca Dec 2019 #23
Run a National Campaign to take back the Senate promising to hold a fair trial randr Dec 2019 #24
I wonder just how long they could hold it.... Historic NY Dec 2019 #27
Nope. We are set to vote for impeachment. MineralMan Dec 2019 #28
each Article calls for "removal from office, and disqualification" Hermit-The-Prog Dec 2019 #37
The public assessment of this impeachment will go on, and it's the most MineralMan Dec 2019 #38
I like this idea CanonRay Dec 2019 #31
Amen, Rob. spanone Dec 2019 #32
This is the result of McConnell's Merrick Garland strategy, and it's brilliant. Arthur_Frain Dec 2019 #33
Absent that, just keep impeaching him, over and over. coti Dec 2019 #48
I suspect that our Presidential candidates in the Senate would find that unappealing. FBaggins Dec 2019 #55
 

Lexee

(377 posts)
1. I have been listening to this. I like the sound of this.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:08 AM
Dec 2019

Also, I trust Pelosi. So, I think if it is doable then she will be on top of it. But, I do like what they are saying.

wishstar

(5,267 posts)
3. Constitution flat out says that after impeachment by Congress,articles "shall be" sent to the Senate
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:11 AM
Dec 2019

so Mitch McConnell would claim Congress must send case to Senate without delay and Dems would be accused of playing politics.

uponit7771

(90,301 posts)
4. It does not define *when* it shall be sent and Moscow Mitch has no room to talk after SC withheld
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:17 AM
Dec 2019

... from POTUS.

Cosmocat

(14,557 posts)
8. Yep
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:00 AM
Dec 2019

Democrats have played this absolutely buy the book, and straight down the fairway, and barely have 50% support. Wow I get what people think and this, mcconnell is never going to be anything other than a scumbag, holding it up will not result in him miraculously agreeing it to do it properly. And it will look like a strategic move, in dems pay for doing things the right way much less for strategic reasons.

It's gonna be a sham in the senate either way, the only route here is to pass it off hope it gets dealt with quickly and move on.

brush

(53,721 posts)
59. Not so fast. Why give up a bargaining chip without getting something for it?
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:25 PM
Dec 2019

trump and Moscow Mitch want this to move fast, call Ghouliani to spew whatever phony info the Russians ginned up for him on his recent re-visiting of Ukraine so they can exonerated trump.

Schumer in the meantime has called for Mulvaney, Bolton and a couple of other top repugs to testify. Why not hold it over trump's head as the campaign heats up and the election nears. Either they give us our witnesses too or maybe something else will be worked out. Who knows what that will be?

An impeached but yet to be tried and exonerated candidate is at a disadvantage. Holding it over the repugs head and blasting in ads 24/7 that he is impeached is a strong hand.

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
29. As lawyer, I note, 'shall' in the legal lexicon can be very complicated.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:30 AM
Dec 2019

"Shall' often lawyer recommended n to be not used

louis-t

(23,262 posts)
52. Hmm. Really? Shall means 'will'.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:37 PM
Dec 2019

I deal in contract law every day. Not really complicated if you have a date, time and other language necessary to enforce.

empedocles

(15,751 posts)
53. Shall may mean will. Also, in Constitutional law a given word or phrase is not set in
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:41 PM
Dec 2019

concrete, but interpreted according to the particular Constitutional context.

TruckFump

(5,812 posts)
30. So, why not keep investigating? Re-writing? Taking procedural votes?
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:31 AM
Dec 2019

The Intel and Judic committees are full of good Dem lawyers. Every lawyer can bring up procedural issues which legitimately delay turning over the articles to Moscow Mitch.

FBaggins

(26,714 posts)
34. The easy delay is just holding up the vote
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 12:24 PM
Dec 2019

What people pushing this ridiculous “strategy” are missing (apart from the obvious constitutional concerns) is that House leadership is actively trying to avoid delaying things (largely due to the primary calendar).

brush

(53,721 posts)
60. If it's withheld from the Senate there's no need for the Dem senate candidates...
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:31 PM
Dec 2019

to stay in the Senate for the trial. They can continue campaigning while Speaker Pelosi and Schumer play what could be a strong hand—withholding a trial over an impeached trump's head during the campaign until McTurtle agrees to our witnesses or some other compromise that will weaken the repug position.

FBaggins

(26,714 posts)
43. True - but the effect is the same
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 03:57 PM
Dec 2019

It does say that the Senate has the power to try all impeachments.

There really isn't anything that the House can do to delay things substantially. All of the rules between the vote and the start of the trial (selecting managers, etc.) are essentially an agreement between the two chambers, they aren't enshrined in the Constitution.

If the House changes its rules to significantly delay sending over the articles, the Senate can change its rules and just start the trial. The articles are public and they can just declare that the House can send managers if they want to or the Senate may consider it a failure to prosecute if they don't.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,228 posts)
46. who will stop them from nuking the House?
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:10 PM
Dec 2019

Who will stop the Senate from putting grease on all of our highways?

tritsofme

(17,363 posts)
47. Well, McConnell doesn't have the codes.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:15 PM
Dec 2019

And the House would have to agree to appropriate the money for the grease, and the bill be signed by the president.

With those questions answered, what would stop the Senate from recognizing that the House adopted articles of impeachment and starting their “trial”?

FBaggins

(26,714 posts)
49. There's no question that delaying a vote would delay any trial
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:23 PM
Dec 2019

But that isn't what the OP is talking about. The proposal is to impeach now, but not send it over to the Senate.

That's the option that they don't really have.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,228 posts)
56. the House has the sole power of impeachment
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:00 PM
Dec 2019

The Senate cannot try an impeachment until submitted to them by the House.

Let's wait and see what the House decides to do.

FBaggins

(26,714 posts)
57. Your first and third sentences are correct... the second is flat wrong.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:14 PM
Dec 2019

The Constitution does not create two classes of impeachments (those sent on to the Senate and those not) - with the Senate only able to act on one category. It says that the Senate has the power to try all impeachments.

An impeachment exists when the House majority votes it so. It does not pop into existence when the House submits it to the Senate. Even if that were the case, it would just mean that he isn't impeached if the House doesn't send it on. Which defeats the purpose of the theory in this thread (which is to be able to say that Trump has been impeached, but keep the Senate from acquiting him).


It's a simple binary question. Has the House impeached? If yes... then the Senate has the power to hold a trial.

TygrBright

(20,749 posts)
51. Constitution ALSO says the Senate "shall" advise and consent on Supreme Court nominees...
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:30 PM
Dec 2019

....can you say "Merrick Garland"?

Timelines are obviously subject to circumstance.

interestedly,
Bright

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
5. The ONLY support that matters is among the house leadership.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:33 AM
Dec 2019

This isn't a voting issue. It's a leadership issue.

This is basic stuff, guys. It's in their hands, and this decision is far too important to be affected by people too foolish to comprehend their own ignorance.

All possible strategies will have been considered in great depth with the assistance of teams of top experts for years now, and no doubt all viable ones are continually evaluated as this situation develops.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
22. Far, far too many to name or know, and they don't
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 08:49 AM
Dec 2019

put themselves in front of the media so you have to know something about congress. I've looked up bios that are little but lists of previous positions, impressive perhaps but give little indication of stature within their fields. But government draws a lot of very impressive people who believe in it and want to be at the center of power making things happen. "No one" heard of Lawrence O'Donnell over his 25-years as a top-level senate staffer, only after he left for a media career.

People need to realize that the typical senator has both personal and legislative staffs of several dozen professionals, who include many high-level aides and top experts who specialize in various parts of the legislative process, from research to negotiations with business and the other party, including constitutional issues, healthcare policy, etc. Legislation happens at this level. Congressmen typically have fewer but still in the dozens.

In addition, the house and senate committees have committee staffs similarly filled with many career professionals.

Then you have your caucus and important committee leaders, who of course are able to draw the most and the best available experts to help them do their jobs. When Elijah Cummings, who chaired the powerful house oversight committee, died, O'Donnell said he left a fantastic staff, the staff those of other legislators went to for answers.

And they, of course, also work with top outside experts who prefer the work and kind of money they make outside government but are happy to advise and/or consult.

Which brings us back to these people on TV who keep making pronouncements, always with at least a secondary motive of burnishing their public images of being the best of the best, that they never have to make good on.

Almost by definition the very few experts who've become talking heads for a living, or who otherwise seek attention to keep their brand fresh, are not being consulted and not in the know. Knowledge is power, after all, and insiders have to be very careful about what information they let out to people for whom public attention equals success. Some of the more honest members of the chattering class, like O'Donnell and Chuck Rosenberg, admit that those on the inside don't talk to them and they're no longer in the loop.

Especially in this situation. Notice that no one's reported even a single leak from Pelosi's office.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
25. Interesting. But actually quite scary. That if there
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:19 AM
Dec 2019

are all these expert consultants..why are we so dangerously close to him winning another term? The worst possible lying, disrespectful, unknowledgeable president in history.

Have often thought that it needs to be a unique (not business as usual) group effort. Pollsters, admen, deep pockets donors, psychiatrists, Dem strategists, constitutional lawyers and house/senate vote counters. It will take a team to get rid of the monster.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
6. Terrible idea
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 05:58 AM
Dec 2019

The pukes will twist the narrative to be 'its all a sham, which is why they wouldn't even follow the constitution and send it to the senate!'.

We really need to not fall into this obvious pitfall. They will vote down in the senate obviously, but by being so brazen about coordinating with Trump, McTurtle has handed us a huge potential win with voters. Everyone understands the concept of a rigged trial.

MyOwnPeace

(16,909 posts)
10. I wonder............
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:10 AM
Dec 2019
Everyone understands the concept of a rigged trial.

There were 63 million people who didn't seem to mind that McTurtle denied PRESIDENT OBAMA the right to select a Supreme Court nominee. I'm suspecting that many, if not all, of those same people really have no idea of what justice really is...........

wnylib

(21,287 posts)
12. Agree. This is a bad idea. I understand why it
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:41 AM
Dec 2019

appeals to some people, but the act of withholding the articles and the spin Republicans will give to that would undermine the integrity of the House. It would give credence to complaints by Trump and his enablers that the whole thing is a political sham

We know that the Senate will do as it pleases no matter what. So this suggested tactic will not work anyway.

Better to proceed to the trial. Expose the Republican bias and widely publicize Moscow Mitch's open admission of bias in letting the defendent conduct the trial. The reaction of rhe publuc will be in our favor.

Republican spin on wthholding will be that

1. the impeachment hearings were a political sham.
2. withholding the articles proves that the charges are fake and Dems know it
3. Pelosi is overstepping her authority and imposing herself on the senate
4. No charges sent to the Senate means no trial. OK. Done and over. End of whole process. Trump wins by default.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
16. I think we need to stop all this political posturing... worrying
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:50 AM
Dec 2019

and guessing what they will say and just do the right thing. It has become very apparent that trump can spin either side of any issue. Trump could murder someone and tweet it was a great thing to do.

wnylib

(21,287 posts)
19. Yes, we need to stop giving armchair advice on tactics
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 08:05 AM
Dec 2019

to the House. I trust that Pelosi knows the law on this as well as what tactics are legal and advisable.

Trump and his allies will spin everything anyway no matter what tactics we use. Better to just play it straight and do the right thing.

wnylib

(21,287 posts)
39. They do solicit feedback on issues, in polls
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 03:07 PM
Dec 2019

And their staff does note opinions in phone calls, letters, and emails.

But on the legal and tactical decisions about impeachment? Nah, not likely.

duforsure

(11,884 posts)
7. They should now keep it
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 06:15 AM
Dec 2019

In the House refusing to allow them to quickly as possible ram it thru the Senate for them to refuse to convict him. and the Dems need to slow it down now since they know Moscow Mitch won't give him a fair trial.

MartyTheGreek

(562 posts)
11. Trump want's a Show Trial through the year if he can get it...
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:13 AM
Dec 2019

Moscow Mitch knows that this is hurting his Senators and his party. Currently, they are taking the news cycle by saying they are going to create a controversy over the process, process, process, not the facts, facts, facts, that the Dems should be talking about. Any question by a reporter about the process, should be replied with the facts of this historic looming impeachment. They want to avoid the words impeachment. Stay on target!

In reality, impeachment started in 2018. They know that too!

Mustellus

(328 posts)
13. NO. Do it and hang it on every R senators neck ....
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:42 AM
Dec 2019

... in the fall.

Let everyone see that the "Red States" are still doing KKK show trials where the fix is in. Same people, same tactics.

Then run against them all as Accessories After The Fact .... because they are.

Unless they've already taken Russian money, in which case they are just as guilty as Trump

Besides....

There's lots of Trump crimes. The man won't live long enough to serve out the sentences he deserves. So we can
always DO IT AGAIN.

 

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,770 posts)
15. One "pro" to this is that supposedly McConnell wants
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:45 AM
Dec 2019

A speedy trial and quick resolution so his senators can hope people forget about it by November.

lastlib

(23,118 posts)
17. Somebody (L. Tribe?) had an interesting idea:
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 07:52 AM
Dec 2019

Send ONE article--obstruction-- to the Senate immediately. Hold the abuse of power article until the Senate/WH agree to let Mulvaney et al. testify. That can be justified as testimony needed for the case. McTurdle can try the obstruction article at his pleasure, but the abuse of power article will be hanging over their heads for awhile.

The constitution says nothing about when a trial is conducted when an officer is impeached, only that the Senate is the only place you can hold a trial for it.

I'm liking the idea, but defer to the wisdom of Madame Speaker and her leadership.

onenote

(42,501 posts)
18. It may be growing among some people. But not among those that actually make this decision
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 08:00 AM
Dec 2019

Last edited Mon Dec 16, 2019, 09:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Schumer already (and almost certainly in consultation with Pelosi) has sent a letter to McConnell suggesting that the trial be scheduled for early January.

The folks that think sitting on the articles would be a good idea are naive. It would be an unprecedented move that would blow up in House members' faces. The Republicans and media would have a field day talking about how the Democrats lack the courage of their convictions and are denying Trump his day in court. The counterargument that this is being done because the Senate trial would be a sham won't matter. What would be the endgame? To never hold a trial? What would that accomplish other than to put House members on the defensive next November?

Vinca

(50,233 posts)
23. I'm thinking this might be the right thing to do and, in the meantime, pursue those
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 08:52 AM
Dec 2019

subpoenas in court and make a big deal of it. More beans could start to spill as rats go overboard. They should also find out what Lev has. Audio would be a nice touch when it comes to evidence. Maybe there's a recording of the Ghoul and the Orange King laying out the plan.

randr

(12,409 posts)
24. Run a National Campaign to take back the Senate promising to hold a fair trial
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 09:25 AM
Dec 2019

Put the impeachment in the lap of the voters. We take the Senate at all costs and try him in absentia.

MineralMan

(146,242 posts)
28. Nope. We are set to vote for impeachment.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:27 AM
Dec 2019

When we do, it must go to the Senate. Everyone will see what happens, including the self-dealing, partisan posturing, and all the rest. If we didn't intend for them to go to the Senate, Articles of Impeachment should not have been created.

It's a process. Once started, it has to proceed to its conclusion. Watch. Listen. Talk. Share. The process must be carried out to the end of that process.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,228 posts)
37. each Article calls for "removal from office, and disqualification"
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 02:54 PM
Dec 2019

Each of the Articles of Impeachment approved by the Judiciary Committee calls for the "removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States." That can only happen by conviction in the Senate, therefore, if these Articles are approved in the House, they must be submitted to the Senate.

https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20191216/CRPT-116hrpt346.pdf

These discussions are interesting, at least, because they keep a nice chunk of the population engaged in thinking about this impeachment. There is also the possibility that such public brainstorming may come up with something that overworked staffers overlooked. A sort of open source impeachment.

MineralMan

(146,242 posts)
38. The public assessment of this impeachment will go on, and it's the most
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 02:58 PM
Dec 2019

important part of the whole process in this particular case. We know the Senate won't remove Trump, but the proceedings in the Senate will be informative for the voters. That's why it needs to happen.

Trump will skate in the Senate, but not with the public, I think. This is all about next year's election, really, and always has been, as long as the Senate has an actual majority of Republicans. They were never going to toss Trump out of the White House, regardless of what the House said.

We need the process to continue so we can see as much of it as possible.

CanonRay

(14,077 posts)
31. I like this idea
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:36 AM
Dec 2019

Impeachment will be like the Sword of Damocles hanging over Trump's head, driving him batshit crazy.

Arthur_Frain

(1,836 posts)
33. This is the result of McConnell's Merrick Garland strategy, and it's brilliant.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 11:50 AM
Dec 2019

“We have to wait for the American people to speak in November”. Then the ball truly is in our court. We would have to flip, flip, flip as many seats as possible to put the remaining rethugs on notice that the next election cycle will be exactly the same.

Then send the articles.

coti

(4,612 posts)
48. Absent that, just keep impeaching him, over and over.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:17 PM
Dec 2019

The rest of his time in the White House should be one big impeachment, no matter how long it is.

FBaggins

(26,714 posts)
55. I suspect that our Presidential candidates in the Senate would find that unappealing.
Mon Dec 16, 2019, 04:51 PM
Dec 2019

If Warren decides that she needs to give up her seat so that she can run full time... we get a Republican replacement for five months or so.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»So this seems like an ide...