This time the right guy had a gun, and stopped more carnage.

[Archae]

The nutcase had an ILLEGAL gun, (sawed-off shotgun,) and was a felon to boot.

He had no damn business having his gun.

And a guy with training and skills took the asshole out, for good.
And everything he did was BY THE BOOK.

So if anyone (like they have to me in the past) says "All gunz gotta be BANNED!" they can shove it.

(BTW, a number of years ago I sold both guns I owned, just didn't need or want the shotgun or pistol.)

Firearms instructor took out gunman at Texas church service

WHITE SETTLEMENT, Texas (AP) - A man who trained others in his Texas church to use firearms to protect the congregation fatally shot a gunman seconds after he opened fire during a service.

Jack Wilson, a volunteer security member and former deputy reserve sheriff, helped stop a shooter at a Texas church. (Credit: CNN)

Jack Wilson fired a single shot, quickly ending the attack that killed two people at the West Freeway Church of Christ in the Fort Worth-area town of White Settlement.

https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Firearms-instructor-took-out-gunman-at-Texas-church-service-566572261.html

[Skittles]

1. that's how the NRA thrives

arm every paranoid gun humping asshole, now EVERYONE needs a guy to protect themselves from paranoid gun humping assholes

this leads to more mass shootings, more accidental shootings, more suicides

it's an endless circle

gun humpers won

[Archae]

2. I, and the guy who took down the kook are not "gun humpers."

A gun is a tool.

The same hammer that builds houses can maim or kill.

The same knife that I use for cutting open packages can kill.

Like another poster has shown, there are some REASONABLE rules and laws that should be put into effect.

Not the "We gots ta ban all dem gunz!" hysterics.

[Skittles]

6. I sent the clip to a friend in Australia

he said he found it highly disturbing, how many people feel they need to be armed TO GO TO CHURCH

I absolutely agree.

IT IS SICK.


edited to add: by the way, I DID separate gun humpers from gun owners in my original post

[CatWoman]

51. i'm with you

who needs a gun to go to church? a bar? the fucking playground?

and it's all legal here in Georgia, thanks to the last governor.

[Skittles]

102. thanks to the NRA, guns are everywhere

the problem is now, gun humpers will use this video as a reason WHY we need to be armed, instead of questioning the sickness that is the gun culture in America

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

132. That's completely accurate.

No only can the NRA use the incident to support their "The only thing to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a guy" argument, now they have video to prove it.

[JonLP24]

12. Hysterics?

I'm just tired of people getting killed by guns.






https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how-do-u-s-gun-laws-compare-to-other-countries

You already have the gun laws you want.

[VOX]

14. Yes, a gun is a very efficient tool. It gives its owner the power to take many lives in mere moments

Take any mass shooting, from the University of Texas in 1966 to Las Vegas in 2017 to Christchurch NZ this year. I defy anyone to match those appalling body counts with a knife or hammer.

Guns are impersonal— killing someone with a firearm takes little effort, but killing with a knife or blunt instrument involves getting in close to one’s victim, feeling their breath, hearing their screams, getting soaked with their blood, and possibly struggling to “finish the job.”

I’m fine with people owning a handgun or shotgun for home defense. But should EVERY American carry on their person a tool that grants them the power to deal swift death in large numbers? Common sense informs the answer: a resounding NO.

It’s way past time for some sensible gun safety laws. Of course no law will stop mass shootings, but if improved background checks (which should be mandatory if one wishes to own a tool designed specifically to take lives), and closing the loopholes in gun-show sales, maybe, just maybe, some lives would be spared. It’s worth a try, at the very least.

[CTyankee]

76. my niece was killed with a handgun by her stepgrandfather. His gun was kept loaded in a drawer

to "protect" his home and family. Here's what I learned from this tragedy:

The guns was used to kill due to 3 factors: Access to the gun, Alcohol ingested copiously by the shooter, and Anger felt by the shooter when he learned he was cut out of his dying wife's will.

I have used these three A's to argue for strong gun laws.

This happened in MY family!

[VOX]

147. So very sorry. If I had my way, I'd melt every firearm down and use the steel for something positive

I’m genuinely sorry for what happened to your niece. There should NEVER have been a firearm of any kind in that household.

My wish of “no guns whatsoever” is not going to happen any time soon. But some strong gun-control and safety laws should nevertheless be enacted. In my post above, I mentioned that a home-defense weapon is okay. What I didn’t add to that statement was: if there were mandatory background checks AND an operator’s license that required continuous renewal. There should also be a proper safe in which the firearm is stored.

While I don’t own a gun, I do feel vulnerable due to a recent event. My house was broken into and burgled while my wife and I were home, watching TV on the other side of the house. If that burglar had any desire to harm us, he could have done so with ease. But to prevent such a potentially deadly scenario, I’d have to strap a gun to my hip every evening, and sit silently through the night. Which is why I haven’t bought a gun.

It’s obviously clear that even with severe restrictions and precautions (which Republicans will NEVER go for), people will still have the age-old issues you mention: Access— would the owner actually use trigger locks and a locked safe? Alcohol or substance abuse— deadly consequences with a gun that’s readily available. Anger— it’s reached an epidemic scale.

More people are experiencing emotional meltdowns over events real or imagined. So doing nothing isn’t an option, either. The stronger the gun laws, the better. Hopefully, guns will eventually go the way of tobacco, where something that was just a part of life (or death) was eventually marginalized due to its deadly effects.

[CTyankee]

149. tobacco was never sacralized the way guns were. It was nasty and made you smell bad and

eventually made you sick and even killed some.

But here is something i want to tell you about having gun violence resulting in a death in your family: it changes everyone closely involved. My brother never recovered from the murder of his daughter and died after a stroke a couple of years later. Her sister felt so much guilt she actually changed her name and eventually went to divinity school and became a Methodist minister.

I hope people who airily talk here about guns and Second Amendment would talk to more people like me who can tell them what happens in the lives of survivors of gun violence in their families. They really don't get it because they never experienced it in their own lives.

[VOX]

150. While it hasn't occurred in my family, I do think about the "ripple effect" each gun death brings.

Yours is a wrenching scenario and case in point about the sudden trauma and lingering despair that gun violence visits upon the extended family and beyond. There are clearly more victims in every shooting death than the deceased alone. And the fallout spreads beyond immediate family to friends, fellow students or work colleagues, teachers, clergy, anyone who knew the original victim.

When I read about the horrific mass killings— such as occurred in Las Vegas in 2016, where one 64-year-old man killed 58 people, wounded 413, and through the ensuing panic, brought the total-injured count to 869 people— I am overwhelmed at how much unspeakable misery has been brought down upon the victims, their families, and to the aforementioned network of associated people. The total number of profoundly affected individuals would number in the thousands.

Thank you for sharing some of your own grief. By your terrible experience, and that of others close to you, you present a somber, cogent and effective argument for strict gun legislation.

[CTyankee]

151. Thanks for "listening." You summed it up well: we have whole town traumatized by gun

violence. This has got to affect us profoundly. Some day historians will look back and talk about this phenomenon. And yet we can't get gun control. Nope.

[rockfordfile]

37. Comparing a hammer to a gun is way the hell out there

[maxsolomon]

80. It's a standard Gunner metaphor.

A bathtub is a tool to clean your body, but also can kill you (if you pass out drunk in it). Odd they don't use that one much.

A gun is a tool for killing things.

[USALiberal]

61. Comparing a hammer to a gun proves you are clueless. nt

[Brainstormy]

226. a gun is a tool?

wow. that's some warped logic right there.

[HAB911]

63. +++++++++++

[snowybirdie]

3. The good guy

with the gun had a regular type of weapon. He didn't have any type of automatic. Those are the ones that cause carnage. Thank God the shooter only had a shotgun.
He also had extensive training. The perfect example for gun lovers. Hate to think of what would have happened if five or six poorly trained churchgoers had all started firing wildly in a room full of people. But this was a good shoot and saved lives. But it proves nothing for either side of the argument.

[Chemisse]

66. It reinforces the need for a ban on high capacity weapons, imo.

If the shooter had an AK-47, the "good guys with a gun" would have been wiped out before they could get in a shot. Nobody stands a chance with those.

[AncientGeezer]

148. Autos aren't used in "the carnage"..Automatic weapons are very highly regulated.

Mr. Wilson had a semi auto handgun...
An AR or AK isn't an automatic... they shoot like Mr. Wilson's hand gun, 1 trigger pull.. 1 shot.
There aren't many people on this website that could afford the license fee and cost of buying an "automatic"....or either

[snowybirdie]

165. Thanks for clarifying

the various types of weapons. Terminology aside, my point remains. PS. Gun folks use this argument all the time. Doesn't make a bit of difference.

[AncientGeezer]

220. It makes a huge difference....100 rds/minute compared to 600-900 rds/min

Those numbers reflect no magazine change, continuous shooting...that's not a thing though.

[stopdiggin]

176. but somehow, the Las Vegas shooter got off over 1000 rounds

and at least some of that recorded at a rate of 9-10 shots per second. That's a hell of a lot of "trigger pulling" when you put it in those terms. And it's something damned close to an automatic, no matter how you slice it.

(and to be 100 percent honest here .. enthusiasts are teaching each other how to easily "modify" these weapons to something very like a full automatic on an every day basis.)

[AncientGeezer]

216. That freak in Vegas was using a bump stock..it's why they are illegal now.

Mechanically "modify"ing these rifles by "enthusiasts" is a myth(you would have to know how to build major components to exacting specs)....a federal offense, and haven't been used in any of these mass murders.

[Jake Stern]

4. Defensive gun uses like this help dispel the idea that concealed carriers are all wannabe Zimmermans

Unfortunately two lost their lives at the hands of this monster before he was taken out but, because of the actions of armed citizens like Jack Wilson, dozens are still alive.

[ExciteBike66]

56. Bad guys with a gun...

always start off as a "good guy with a gun"...

One can never tell ahead of time when the change will take place.

[snort]

5. What it means is that

the insanity of walking into a church and randomly slaughtering parishioners has finally caught up to the odds. It doesn't change what happens in the future. Mass murderers will still find success when the weapon of choice is a firearm.

[Pompoy]

105. He was not there to slaughter people

No way was he there to shoot up the place with a few shotgun shells, he was there to rob the church. That's why he had the fake beard and wig.
He had visited the church several times before, always asking for cash and getting angry that they only gave him food.
Enough with this crap about saving 250 lives. When will they tell us how many rounds he had?
That would blow up the narrative being pushed in Texas and by the right wingers.

[Hoyt]

7. In this case, the shooter was under observation because he was acting so weird.

If they weren’t watching him, the armed “guards” likely would not have acted so quickly.

More gunz aren’t the answer.

[AncientGeezer]

117. That's silly...what if the dirtbag had been observed by unarmed observers...

There would have been many more dead church goers.

The armed observers, observed and acted.
You just made the best case for armed, observant citizens....stopped a slaughter.

[Hoyt]

119. He was also known to the church as an issue. Rather than waiting for him to shoot,

they should have removed him earlier.

Gunners — like the guy that killed him — resort to gunz. That’s the problem. Did you see the interview of the “guard” who shot him? Not very smart, and likely a trumpster and George Zimmerman fan.

[AncientGeezer]

120. What would you do...."bean" him(the bad guy) in the head?

The "guard" was well trained, observant, reacted, and saved many lives. That shows me an intelligent man unlike your claim of.."Not very smart, and likely a trumpster and George Zimmerman fan.".....Zero of which you can prove.

You have posted in the past you guard against being open to defensive gun owners...as well as LEO's, in your past profession.

I don't care what he sounds like in an interview so close to a traumatic incident.. as he went through. I care about what he did.....he saved many.

[Hoyt]

123. The guard was watching a known problem, but didn't have guts/smarts

to do something before the known issue pulled a shotgun.

Should have escorted him out and held him until police arrived. But, then, the church patrol would have missed opportunity to shoot someone.

Are the gunners on the Discussionist raising a toast and waving their guns to the church patrolman?

[AncientGeezer]

130. The freak had a shotgun....hidden under a trenchcoat.

Came back from the bathroom and started shooting....you aren't good at this.
Mr. Wilson is a hero....saved countless lives.
Everyone gets it. You've posted about it. In your self admitted past profession you took steps so you couldn't be escorted out to the cops.

Thankfully Mr. Wilson was trained, observant, and prepared. He's a hero...it could have been so much worse.

[Hoyt]

131. They were observing him before, because he had been a problem before.

Poor security resulted in unnecessary deaths. This could have been stopped before anyone was shot, not to even get into discussing the broader issue of gunz in society.

[AncientGeezer]

133. Keep tryin'....you'll lock a door and bean someone....Mr. Wilson is a hero.

He had a problem, yep...they feed him but they wouldn't give him money(back when you operated... that wouldn't have been a thing..you posted about it)

Mr. Wilson saved many lives, a Hero. It's too bad the dead freak had an illegally possessed shot gun....and got croaked in about 6 seconds......right?

[Hoyt]

134. Read these articles. Your boy Wilson and other "guards" knew he was up to

something.

Wilson even said he positioned himself behind the mentally ill man before the incident and had cameras on him.

Your hero, Wilson, should have acted earlier, but fucked up. Typical gunner.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/white-settlement-gunman-grew-angry-over-refused-requests-for-money-minister/2284425/%3fakmobile=y&akdevice=androidphone&sslEnabled=true&

Best article:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/12/31/us/texas-church-shooting-white-settlement.amp.html

[AncientGeezer]

135. Exactly as I said above...so? Also as I said above...you aren't good at this.

You aren't going to hide bait me bean can...

Mr. Wilson is a Hero....the dead guy....isn't.

[Hoyt]

136. Wilson screwed up because he only had guts to position

himself behind a known suspect, ready to shoot him. If Wilson were smart, and doing his duty, he would have escorted they guy out before he had a chance to shoot someone.

[AncientGeezer]

137. That's hystarically funny crap right there....

Mr. Wilson is a life saving Hero....thank the Lord he didn't have a bean can.
The whole congregation could have died....and the dirtbag could have stolen all the money.

Hoyt....I love when you try.....this is what happens. You make the case for MORE Mr. Wilson's

[Hoyt]

138. If he'd had guts, he'd have asked they guy to come outside and

“beaned” him upside the head if he tried to pull his shotgun out, from under a trench coat, which wouldn be difficult, run or whatever.

Your hero and the other “guards” knew something was going down, and they failed to act until it was too late. Typical gunner.

[AncientGeezer]

139. Keep running with that....Mr.Wilson is a National Hero...he's gaining Sully status

His actions are being used all over the web to diminish yours and ...and let's say Beto's vision of confiscation...and it's working.

Mr. Wilson has done more for gun ownership than you'll ever do for confiscation.
Mr. Wilson is a Hero...on 2 fronts.
You post on a forum....website...Mr. Wilson acted and saved many lives.

You're loads of fun though....you aren't MR. Wilson..a National Hero

[Hoyt]

140. Discussionist and gun websites maybe, not most places now that the truth is

coming out. Gunners will always back other gunners, Zman is a good example.

This could/should have been handled with no shots fired. “Officer” Wilson missed a real opportunity. Barney Fife would have handled this properly.

[AncientGeezer]

143. Hang on that thin thead dude...that and beans will get you...

Mr. Wilson is a National Hero.....saved many lives. It's gone worldwide.

I see big things in his near future..., proclamations, awards, ...memes on FB.
The thug dead guy...still croaked...known dirtbag...Mr. Wilson...Hero.

[dware]

153. Wow!!!!

I can only shake my head at the stupidity of what I'm reading from your posts.

Just to clarify, I'm in no way calling you stupid, just calling your assertions here stupid.

[Hoyt]

157. You must be a gunner. Figures.

[dware]

158. That's your answer to my post?

No, I'm not a "gunner", I'm a long haul truck driver and as such, federal law prohibits me from having a firearm in my truck.

Your ridiculousness knows no bounds.

[Hoyt]

160. Actually, there is no federal law prohibiting carrying a gun in CVs. Some states might not

recognize another state’s carry permit though. But, don’t believe any federal law prohibits it. Maybe you have a citation. In any event, glad you’ve found you can travel all over this country and never need a gun for protection (or to bolster courage). Wish you’d communicate that to gunners.

So you don’t own any guns, yet applaud someone who uses one when other options were available. Interesting.

[dware]

161. I never once applauded this shooting,

that's just a figment of your imagination.

And you are correct, there is no federal law prohibiting me from carrying a firearm in my truck, but most companies I contract to prohibit it.

[spin]

202. No matter how you look at it a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy ...

this time. If the good guy had not been armed and proficient it is quite likely the bad guy would have killed many more innocent victims.

The armed individuals were watching the bad guy because they were practicing something called “situational awareness.” Often concealed carry classes point out the value of using situational awareness as a means of avoiding trouble or being ready to react to an attack. In simple terms it means being aware of your surroundings, not distracted by things like your cell phone. If you learn to practice this tactic it may be almost as effective as carrying a weapon. If you notice something that looks wrong or for some reason the hair stands up on the back of your neck — just leave the area. The best way to avoid a fight is to not get into one.

[Hoyt]

204. Nope. Should have grabbed him before he opened fire. Guy had caused problems before, wearing trench

coat, had a fake mustache, was acting weird, etc. "Guards" should have acted sooner. Why didn't they do more than position themselves to shoot him if necessary? Simple answer -- they are trained to shoot, not stop a threat. That's a shame.

[spin]

210. So it is illegal to wear a wig and a fake mustache? ...

The church security team had no way of knowing if he was armed or not. If the guy had been unarmed he would have sued the church for assault. It is not wise to jump on someone just because they look suspicious.

Also the bad guy might have been carrying a knife. If they grabbed him they might have ended up stabbed.

[Hoyt]

211. Sorry, I disagree. If you are going to play "guard/security," be prepared to act when there

is an obvious problem.

Yeah, people who have gotten angry with church officials before, wear a trench coat, have on a disguise, caused concern so that "guards" trained cameras on him and positioned themselves around him, etc., should be left alone.

Gunners need to realize there are better ways to take someone down than waiting for them to open fire. Of course, police need to learn that too.

[spin]

212. Go ahead. Jump on someone wearing a wig and a fake mustache. ...

Beat the crap out of them. You best hope you are right and the person is a bad guy with a gun. Attorneys are expensive and if you were wrong you will need one.

Police have learned over the years it is not wise to beat up people who look suspicious. Such people often end up rich after they sue the city.

[Hoyt]

213. Didn't have to beat the crap out of him; but, if they had a few lives would have been saved.

Grab him, escort him out. They already had cameras on him, and surrounded. So, it's not like he wasn't suspected of bad intentions.

You gunners will twist yourself into a pretzel trying to rationalize shooting someone, even though other options were available here, with Trayvon Martin, etc.

[spin]

214. I will definitely agree there were different options with the Travon Martin case. ...

I might report some suspicious individual in my neighborhood to the police but then I would go on my way. (Note: I don’t consider a kid in a hoodie suspicious.)

***********

The aim of neighborhood watch includes educating residents of a community on security and safety and achieving safe and secure neighborhoods. However, when a criminal activity is suspected, members are encouraged to report to authorities, and not to intervene.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_watch

************

Zimmerman made the mistake of Looking for trouble and it found him.

[AncientGeezer]

219. Source link....this should be interesting.

"They already had cameras on him, and surrounded."......Please source it.

[Hoyt]

221. Gave you a link earlier. Guess you forgot it already. You NRA gunner hero should have acted sooner.

The "security" guards knew Kinnunen was up to something. But the "guards" sat on their asses, ready to shoot, but not ready to do anything else.


"Though he had been to the church before, Mr. Kinnunen aroused suspicion among members of the security team on Sunday when he walked in wearing a trench coat and what looked like a fake beard. He tailed a family as they entered the church, which immediately brought attention his way. “He walked across the parking lot to get into the building, and normally we don’t have a lot of people walk from down the road,” Mr. Robertson, the church elder, said. . . . . .

"Mr. Kinnunen asked where the restroom was and then returned a few minutes later, Mr. Wilson said. “We were concerned,” he said. One of the church’s security cameras was soon trained directly on him, and Mr. White, who was part of the security team, also stationed himself behind him. Mr. Wilson stood near a back wall several feet away.


"Mr. Kinnunen approached Mr. Wallace, who was administering communion, and the two men spoke briefly. “No one knows what that conversation was,” Mr. Wilson said. The gunman sat down and then went up to Mr. Wallace again, this time pulling out a shotgun he had hidden under his coat. . . . . . .

"Mr. Wilson said that both he and Mr. White drew their guns from their holsters. Mr. Kinnunen fired at Mr. Wallace and Mr. White from close range. Mr. Wilson said he had a clear shot at the gunman’s head. “The thing I teach in our classes, in our training, is you don’t do head shots unless that’s all you have,” he said. “And that’s all I had at that point.”"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/31/us/texas-church-shooting-white-settlement.html

[AncientGeezer]

222. Keep trying....this in no way backs your claim...

" “No one knows what that conversation was,” Mr. Wilson said. The gunman sat down and then went up to Mr. Wallace again, this time pulling out a shotgun he had hidden under his coat. . . " Is "hidden" a word you aren't sure of, know the definition of....or just ignore?

Mr. Wilson is a hero....I get it..you don't like that.....but he is.

[Hoyt]

223. A hero to gun-toters. The other 90+% of population, not so much.

To me, he’s just another ignorant white wing NRA instructor who thinks George Zimmerman and trump are good for America.

He failed in his “guard” duties because he can’t see beyond the little blade at the front of his pistol’s barrel.

[AncientGeezer]

224. He's a hero to many of the church goers that might have been killed

..had he not been there. Mr Wilson is a hero...as I said, you don't like that..but he is.

Keep trying...it's getting amusing.

[dware]

231. Give it up.

I've read his posts here and he seems to hate gun owners, I will not respond to him anymore.

[AncientGeezer]

233. It's not "seems".....he absolutly hates us..infringes on his admitted past profession.

[dware]

234. Admitted past profession?

Can you elaborate?

[AncientGeezer]

235. Sure can...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/117245202#post43

[dware]

238. Wow!!!!

Well, that explains his hatred towards gun owners.

It's kind of funny that on other subjects, he's pretty level headed, but when it comes to guns, he goes off on the deep end.

I'll just decline to engage him on the subject of guns and stick to other subjects.

Have a great Sunday, we're one day closer to getting the Mango Menace out of office.

[Liberalhammer]

8. Its good that they were white

If the man who stopped the shooter was black i have no doubt he would have been killed.

[cwydro]

19. One of the victims was a black man.

I have read that he was also one of the volunteer security.

It’s good that you know exactly what would have happened though.

[AncientGeezer]

118. That hurt my heart to read....the post you replied to. I guess agenda trumps facts.

[Thomas Hurt]

9. Still doesn't address the desperation of the right in trying to minimize the fact

that churches have to have security guards at all.

Lets just over look that......move along now.

[VOX]

10. Mass shootings will be further normalized by a metric of "bystanders killed until GGWG kills BGWG."

In this case, two bystanders were killed, and the shooter was killed by that rara avis, the “good guy with a gun.” And that, by NRA standards, is a smashing success.

Still, the “bad guy with a gun” was one dead bystander ahead. But, you know, that’s a big victory, so everyone in America should gear up.

The thing is, until some SANITY is applied with gun safety laws, the BGWGs will always come out ahead in the aggregate body counts.

[braddy]

11. The first guy killed was a good guy with gun that was in the process of drawing his pistol which

drew the shooter's attention to him, the second man shot was the usher who should have been armed, then the shooter was killed by another good guy with gun as a half dozen or more other good guys moved in with guns and to render aid.

[angrychair]

13. That you dont see the issue

Is what is disturbing...

as a half dozen or more other good guys moved in with guns and to render aid.

That you think its legitimate for a dozen or more people to put innocent bystanders in the middle of a shooting gallery, should give one pause but apparently not.

This was a series of events that fostered an outcome that was not a complete bloodbath. It was not training or skill or people being armed but unique twists of fate.

There have been MANY mass shootings that had armed people present when it happened and there is no noted cases where it helped.

Even in this case, two were killed. Hardly stopped the shooter from killing them. That so many were armed is of little meaning to the dead.

A bunch of trigger happy "gun enthusiasts" are one mistake from turning a kid with a pellet gun into a bloody mess.

[braddy]

16. Guns always end or force the end of the mass murder, and this reaction looked just like my church

where almost every man in it is armed and a veteran.

Without armed resistance the bad guys do what they want for as long as they want.

[cwydro]

20. Only the men are armed?

No women are armed?

Or maybe they just don’t brag about it...

[braddy]

24. I have never heared anyone in the church brag about being armed, and I haven't noticed any women

having guns, although I hope some do.

[cwydro]

30. Oh, so you know because everyone is wearing one on their hip?

Wow, what a church.

How about the minister? Open carrying also?

[braddy]

31. Your conclusions are weird and appear hostile, I did try to answer you about my church but now you

are telling me about us.

[panader0]

52. Why would you want to go to a church where everyone is armed?

Wasn't Jesus called the "Prince of Peace'?
Is it perhaps the church of the 9 millimeter?
So weird. Glad I'm an atheist.

[braddy]

75. I have never been to or heard of a church where "everyone is armed", that sounds mandatory.

Jesus didn't require his men be armed, but he didn't forbid them to be either, Peter was well armed for instance.

[cwydro]

69. You said no one bragged about it, so I wondered how you knew that "every man is armed."

Either they’re talking about it, or they’re open carrying.

And did you say the minister is armed as well? Curious.

[braddy]

74. You said "brag", I said "almost" every man is armed, so far the minister doesn't carry although

he thinks us starting a gun club is a good idea and his wife has recently become a gun enthusiast. We know who has a gun because we rotate being security.

[CTyankee]

152. And this will repeat itself over and over again where whole communities are forever

traumatized by gun violence. And we wonder why our country is so fucked up...

[braddy]

155. I like America.

[CTyankee]

156. Well, alrighty then. I guess that's settled.

[LaurenOlimina]

15. "The nutcase had an ILLEGAL gun, (sawed-off shotgun,) and was a felon to boot."

Yep, that's about as good as the GGWG scenario gets. And had that gun never been out there for him to buy? Well, three people would probably be alive.

I don't see that "2-1, advantage bad guy" as a win.

[Archae]

38. It was a shotgun.

No doubt formerly used for deer or duck hunting, and the shooter made it into a sawed-off ILLEGAL shotgun, or he bought (or stole) the gun.

But what the heck. "No more hunting! We gots to confiscate EVERY gun!"

[LaurenOlimina]

40. So a legally purchased weapon?

[AncientGeezer]

121. No.

[onecaliberal]

17. Why do so many take guns to church?

[Dagstead Bumwood]

21. Because WWJD?

Put a cap in your ass. Texas Jesus, anyway.

[onecaliberal]

23. Maybe republican Jesus would but not the Jesus in the Bible. The one who said, "thou shall not kill"

[Dagstead Bumwood]

25. Yep, that's him.

[braddy]

26. The actual commandment is Thou shall not murder (unlawful killing) Peter carried a sword with Jesus.

[Red Mountain]

18. Seems like they had a lot of security

Wonder what would have happened if they were unarmed and acted that way. Instead of shadowing the shooter so just in case they could shoot him they had asked him to step outside and questioned him.

There's another church shooter out there. That person is learning from this video.

Good luck keeping up with the arms race.

[cwydro]

46. Wow, victim blaming much?

Sure, step up to a man wielding a shotgun and ask him to “step outside.”

[LAS14]

22. Does anyone know the origin of the name "White Settlement?" nt

[Whiskeytide]

33. Someone earlier posted some history...

... that said the name came from Native American’s in surrounding settlements back when this town was first founded. They called it the “white settlement” and apparently it stuck.

I can’t find the post but it’s here somewhere.

[LAS14]

36. Thanks. nt

[sarisataka]

27. It doesn't fit the narrative

Which really seems to bother some people.

Of course there are those who will put forth that a gun ban would have prevented any shooting at all. I guess the assumption being a gun ban would be more effective than bans on illegal drugs.


Nor, however, does this incident support any idea put forth that guns should be unregulated and everyone carry. Choosing to exercise the right to bear arms comes with heavy responsibilities. Fortunately every carrier present took those responsibilities seriously.

Even though there were several armed citizens, exactly one shot was fired to stop the shooter. That was all that was neccessary. Compare the actions of these carriers to the actions of the trained LEOs in the recent robbery involving the UPS truck and the fusillade of bullets they fired.

[cwydro]

47. Excellent point.

Especially your last sentence.

And you’re right, it doesn’t “fit the narrative.”

[Chemisse]

67. It doesn't fit the narrative. I, for one, am happy that they took the shooter down.

Much as I have criticized the 'good guy with a gun' meme, I am happy that it worked this time to prevent more deaths.

I do think that it only worked because the shooter carried a shotgun, not an automatic weapon, which could have riddled all the potential "good guys" with bullets in just one second of shooting.

[sarisataka]

73. I am glad the shooter was stopped

But I don't rejoice at any death. Unfortunately sometimes the only way to save additional victims is to use lethal force.

At close quarters a shotgun can be devastating. The number of shootings using automatic weapons in the last 80 years can be counted on one hand, so that is not really an issue.

[hunter]

28. Gun fetishes are disgusting.

:barf:

This is like those stupid "Why I don't where seat belts" arguments.

Yeah, yeah, a guy was thrown free of his car after he hit a giant pothole and just before the car flew over a cliff into a vat of nuclear waste!

[XRubicon]

29. Is this the way you want to live?

Last edited Mon Dec 30, 2019, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

Everyone packing heat ready to kill at the drop of a hat.

It wasn't always like this, I remember back before the mass marketing of weapons of war people didn't have to worry about random killing In public.

Gun control works, see Austrailia.

This was not a success, it was a failure. Ask the two families of the dead.

[Demonaut]

35. we've been living this nightmare scenario for years, brought to you by the NRA and the GOP

adapt

[Archae]

39. Australian gun control "works?"

The New Zealand shooter was from Australia, and bought (or stole, not sure) his guns after the Aussie gun laws went into effect.

[XRubicon]

41. Yes, Austrailian gun control works

New Zealand is not Australia last I checked. He bought the guns online under old New Zealand law. Do you think your home country laws follow you to other countries?

New Zealand is now following Australia's lead with new gun laws.

[Archae]

48. So in New Zealand he bought those assault rifles?

I read in one news report, that the guy bought the guns illegally.

[XRubicon]

54. My understanding is he bought large capacity magazines illegally

I think he bought the guns online legally.

[Recursion]

42. Australia has had more mass shootings after their semi-auto ban than they did before it

They had the Adelaide Hell's Angels shootout in 1999, the Monash University mass shooting in 2002, the Oakhampton Heights mass shooting in 2005, the Hectorville siege in 2011, the Lockhart mass shooting in 2014, the Sydney hostage crisis in 2014, the Brighton siege in 2017, the Osmington mass shooting in 2018, and this year they've had a mass shooting in Darwin and another one in a Melbourne night club.

That's 10 in 2 decades, which if you multiply for population would be the equivalent of 130 mass shootings in the US over that time period (Mother Jones' big list of mass shootings says we've had 90 in that time frame).

So, no: Australia's gun control has in no sense "worked", at least not if its goal was to prevent mass shootings.

(I also wish Americans would stop acting like we had the patent on mass shootings: far and away the global epicenter of mass shootings is Scandinavia, with Finland as the clear "winner".)

[XRubicon]

43. Gun violence is directly related to gun laws.

I don't intend to argue with NRA talking points here, so have a nice day.

[Recursion]

44. So, nothing? I listed 10 mass shootings in Australia since the semi-auto ban

And all you can do is pretend that's "NRA talking points"? Interesting.

[Archae]

49. I've seen a few people here...

Who want to BAN all guns.

Including any carried by police, or even soldiers!

These are the radical "All dem gunz iz EEEE-VIL!" hysterics.

I stopped hunting years ago, simply because I didn't want to go out in the cold any more waiting for a duck or deer.

But in the several years I did hunt, I bagged one duck, and missed a deer.

The militant anti-gun kooks (just as there are militant PRO-gun kooks,) want to end hunting, target practice, etc.

Meanwhile, criminals are laughing at them.

The NRA is a militant pro-gun lobby group, and it looks like they are collapsing.

But there are far WORSE groups out there too.

Just look up "Gun Owners of America."

[XRubicon]

58. I'm not for banning all guns

I just dont want to get into the gun debate that always devolves into the same tired crap from the gun nuts, there are a few here you know.

[mokawanis]

64. You keep mentioning that there are a few people that want to ban ALL guns

and I wonder why you keep repeating that statement. There are not very many people saying that on DU, or anywhere else for that matter. I think most people want some gun control measures put in place because they are fed up with the number of mass shootings.

[dware]

59. Interesting that when you're bested, you claim

NRA talking points, like that's the end all to the discussion.

[XRubicon]

65. Ok, according to wikipedia there have been 423 mass shootings

This year. So the claim of 90 in 20 years is questionable. See definition in article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019

Next we argue definitions, etc etc...Do you find this interesting too?

[dware]

68. I was just commenting on that when you were shown to be wrong,

you claimed it was an NRA talking point.

[XRubicon]

78. ok.. I showed you how bad the data above is that you accepted

Unquestioned. I could tell just at a glance it didn't make sense.

NRA strategy is in full force here, you may not recognize it though, but I bet you do.

Happy New Year

[uponit7771]

93. +1

[dware]

110. I'll take that bet, because you would lose.

Happy New Year to you and yours.

[XRubicon]

113. Happy New Year!

I've been wrong before, happy to meet you.

[dware]

115. The pleasure is all mine.

[Recursion]

97. And according to Mother Jones there have been 120 since 1982

So, yeah, it would be good if the CDC could actually study this and we could at least all have the same definitions.

However, Australia has just as a matter of fact had mass shootings since the semi auto ban.

[Jake Stern]

127. Really?

Vermont and New Hampshire have some of the most liberal gun laws in the country but not much gun violence.

Maryland and DC have super tight gun laws but huge amounts of gun violence.

[JonLP24]

186. They get their guns out of state such as the Southern States

They will use straw purchasers as a common way to get guns.

[CTyankee]

178. What are you talking about?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

I really don't know where you are getting your "information" and "facts" from...

Please list your sources (and not just from gun publications all wrought up in outrage...)

[Recursion]

179. Great example, thanks: 90 mass shooters in the US from 1966 to 2012

Adjusting for population that would be the equivalent of 7 mass shooters in Australia during that period, but Australia has had 10 since 1996. So, yeah: we aren't all that special here.

[CTyankee]

181. Did you read the piece I forwarded?

[Recursion]

182. I did. Its conclusion seems to be "America is large"

It talks about absolute numbers of shootings for countries with vastly different populations.

Here's an example: China has about 4 times as many people as we do. But it has essentially no mass shootings. So our rate of mass shootings is much, much higher than China's

In contrast, Australia has about a thirteenth as many people as we do. But it has much, much more than a thirteenth as many mass shootings as we do (it has about an eighth as many).

China has about 4 times as many prostate cancer deaths as we do. That doesn't mean they have a particular prostate cancer problem; it means they have 4 times as many people as we do. But they have 10 times as many lung cancer deaths as we do: that does mean they have a problem (and, in fact, a third of Chinese people smoke compared to a sixth of Americans). Whereas they have half again as many colon cancer deaths. More people die of colon cancer in China than in the US, but you are more likely to die of colon cancer in the US than you are in China.

Similarly, we have more mass shootings than Australia, but you're more likely to die from a mass shooting in Australia than you are in the US. We just aren't some special odds-defier here.

[CTyankee]

183. Do you disagree with the findings of the study and I quote:

"The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns."

OK. We have too many guns and too high a rate of mass shootings.

With me, so far?

Well, one might say, given that perhaps we should do more about the high number of guns in our country.

Yes?

So what do we do about the high number of guns?

[Recursion]

184. I mean, their data don't support that weird claim

Australia has far, far fewer guns per capita than we do, but a much higher per capita mass shooting rate. Ditto all of Scandinavia and most of central Europe.

We lead the world in guns per capita, but we don't remotely lead the world in mass shootings per capita. That suggests the simple prevalence of guns isn't the problem, right?

[CTyankee]

185. Well, the NYT author has data that would suggest that you are mistaken.

Perhaps you could offer your data to the Times in order to challenge the author's data. Explain to their editors what you have suggested to me. In the interest of informing the readers of the "other" side of the data (um...) I am sure they will leap to the opportunity to publish it.

[Recursion]

187. No, I'm using that author's data

Our per capita mass shooting rate is lower than Australia's, Norway's, Finland's, Denmark's, and Germany's.

Did you read the article you posted? That's where the data I'm using are from. Why do countries with lower per capita gun ownership rates have higher per capita mass shooting deaths?

[CTyankee]

189. Again, since you are using that author's data and arrive at a different conclusion, you obviously

have a "case" to be made. You are making it here. Why not try for the larger audience: the readership of the New York Times?

[Recursion]

193. Because there's no particular reason to?

To the extent I have a motive it's to prevent the party from throwing away another winnable election based on supporting gun laws that don't actually address the real gun proliferation problem.

Now, if a candidate wanted to ban handguns: that I would support. I think at least that is a place where we agree?

[CTyankee]

196. OK, we'll start from there, where we can agree. Fair enough.

Now, tell us how you (if you were our party's candidate) WOULD address the "real gun proliferation problem"? I'd like to see it.

My guess, fwiw, is our candidates don't go near the gun issue after the unfortunate experience with a now former candidate on assault rifles. My further guess is that the full force of the NRA (such as it is) would try to crush you in any way possible, preferably peacefully.

[Recursion]

197. On the political reality I imagine you're correct

Nobody's really pushing it, but 4 years ago O'Malley had an idea to tie LEO/Military contracts for gunmakers to reductions in civilian-held arms. I think that one, at least, is worth a shot.

[CTyankee]

206. What happened to it? Was the idea crushed by the minions of the NRA?

He was governor at the time I suppose.

Oh, btw, and unrelated to the gun issue at hand but a good story. Several years ago I was a Literacy Volunteer and I conducted a class in conversational (advanced) English and had several advanced English speakers from China (they worked at Yale for the most part) and one of my students asked if it was legal in New Haven if she shot a squirrel (evidently the Chinese regard squirrels as some sort of vermin and I don't know why). I told her I didn't know about the legality but the real problem would be having a gun (assuming a handgun) in the city of New Haven.

[Recursion]

207. The same thing that happened to his campaign

A bunch of really good ideas were just swept out in the generational death-match Democrats engaged in. O'Malley was always strongly opposed by the NRA which was one reason I really liked him.

Also, I love the squirrel story. And, yes: my mainland Chinese friends are horrified that we let squirrels cavort around in public parks. I guess it's how we would react to rats roaming around?

[CTyankee]

208. public parks? I have lots of them cavorting around my house. I know how cold the winter will be

by looking at the thickness of their fur in late fall. Tell that to your Chinese friends...

[Recursion]

209. Ha!

I'll see what they think about that.

[JonLP24]

188. People want to blame anything but the guns

[CTyankee]

191. I think we are going gently into that direction.

It is obvious to me that fewer guns in fewer hands is the answer.

So my question is: why don't we have laws that both limit the number of guns in our country as well a limiting the number of people who have the guns?

[Recursion]

192. If I could make all handguns disappear I'd happily do that

I see the DU No Nuance Ever force field is in effect. I'd be more than happy to outlaw handguns, universally. It just wouldn't particularly affect mass shooting rates. But it would save many, many, many more lives than stopping all mass shootings would.

[CTyankee]

203. And assault rifles?

[Recursion]

205. That's below making vending machines not tip over

Yes, sure: in the world where I'm the benevolent despot, nobody can have an AR-15, either. But it's just not a priority of mine compared to, say, getting infants tested for peanut allergies, or mandating flu vaccinations.

[AncientGeezer]

236. How did that work out for Beto?

[CTyankee]

237. Ah, yes, the Beto question!

He who spoke of "taking away" your assault rifles.

Let me ask you: How, when so many Americans, when asked, have no use for assault rifles, did that (and that alone) defeat him?

I find that interesting...

[Hoyt]

32. The church had a lot of security because they know how dangerous gun-toters are.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Unrec

[StarfishSaver]

45. "This time"

being the operative phrase.

[uponit7771]

50. The good guy with the gun did not stop the bad guy with a gun from killing people

[tosh]

71. Exactly!

Thank you for stating this so precisely.

[uponit7771]

88. +1. GRAs think if only 10 people are killed or shot & the bad guy with a gun is stopped after that

... then all is good and 18 yr olds having easy access to mass kill devices is worth it.

It's not.

[dware]

72. But he did stop him from killing more,

which, in my book, is a good thing.

[uponit7771]

87. That's not the goal we were told by the NRA and GRAs. We were told the good guy with the gun can

... stop the bad guy with a gun.

If that's done after 452314523 or 1 person is killed or shot then the good guy with the gun is useless.

[mr_lebowski]

129. I would bet the person in the killer's crosshairs the instant he was shot by the good guy with

the gun ... would probably take issue with your particular definition of 'utility' ... just sayin ...

[uponit7771]

141. I would agree, my issue isn't with them my issue is with the bunk assed meme of "good person

... with a gun" being useful to stop people from being killed.

They wont, this incident is proof positive.

There needs to be fewer available guns, harder to get and stiffer penalties for having them illegally.

[lark]

53. One freaking time out of a million.

Show me the stats on when guns protect people and when they kill. Almost never do guns protect us and they usually get innocent people killed when deployed by non-trained people - which is almost everyone. They are a net drain and evil in society.
The constitution has been turned on it's head with the current interpretation - there is zero individual mandate. That was devised out of whole cloth by rw oligarchs in bed with the NRA.

I am glad this one time a gun helped, some, but it wouldn't have been needed if the other person didn't have a gun first. Make guns more safe, require insurance, locks, 100% background checks including mental stability and only after everything is paid and passed is a gun issued. Also limit the magazine size and limit bullets and guns that can be bought annually. Let the CDC study the problem and make other recommendations based on facts. These are all common sense measures which would save way more lives than depending on a good guy with a gun who isn't there or who accidentally kills innocents .

[uponit7771]

96. +1, the good guy with a gun did not stop the bad guy with a gun from killing people ...

... he just stopped the bad guy from killing more than 10.

Now that's acceptable for some to allow easy access to mass kill devices, some wackbard logic going on.

[Bettie]

100. Although, we did know about the whacked out logic

when a bunch of first graders were killed at school and the response from the gun nut community was a giant sigh and 'won't someone think of the guns!'.

My gun nut brother said that those kids were "the price we pay for freedom". Easy to say when it isn't your kid, I guess.

[uponit7771]

106. +1, like to see what folk say when them or thiers eats some bullets

[ExciteBike66]

55. Pfft please

"So if anyone (like they have to me in the past) says "All gunz gotta be BANNED!" they can shove it."

The phrase "all gunz" (sp) includes the gun used by the perp.

All gun owners (legal or otherwise) are the problem, not the solution, regardless of their political affiliation...

[Bettie]

57. Yay...two people are dead!

But some dude got to live his cowboy fantasy!

Now, he'll get to go on the talk shows and say "Aw shucks...t'wern't nothin'".

And the NRA will pull this out every time there is a mass shooting, blaming the victims for not having enough guns.

ETA: Yes, there is sarcasm here. I don't think it is great that two people are dead, but I do think it is sad that someone thinks that this is somehow a great outcome.

[dware]

62. You don't think that someone stopping a possible mass shooting

is a great outcome?

[Bettie]

86. I think that with better regulation

and availability of mental health treatment, there would be fewer shootings.

The most shootings tend to happen in states with the most lax gun laws. But, I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

[dware]

111. And on that note, I agree with you.

Happy New Year to you and yours.

[JonLP24]

190. Don't focus too much on mental health treatment as an answer for gun violence

Don't Blame Mental Illness for Mass Shootings

As family physicians, we are no strangers to mental health care. In fact, my most common diagnoses (after "health maintenance&quot are anxiety and depression. Every day, I see patients who are struggling with sleep, appetite, concentration and energy. These are hallmarks of mental health issues. Committing a mass shooting is not.

That's why it's important for family physicians to combat the persistent myth that mental illness is a leading factor in mass shootings. This is unsupported by evidence.

Study(psychiatryonline.org) after study(www.sciencedirect.com) has demonstrated that people with mental health issues commit only a miniscule percentage of mass shootings and account for less than 1% of annual gun homicides. According to a study based on Swedish data published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, only 3%-5% of violent crimes are perpetrated by someone with a mental illness.(ajp.psychiatryonline.org) In fact, people with serious mental illnesses are more likely to be the victims of violence.(www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov) And the vast majority of gun deaths in America are from suicide, meaning those with mental illness are far more likely to harm themselves than others.

Blaming mental illness only serves to further stigmatize patients who have mental health issues as inherently dangerous. And it deflects attention from a real predictor of mass shootings: easy access to guns.

By blaming mental illness or video games (which, it should be noted, are also not proven influencers in mass shootings(www.vox.com)), politicians beholden to gun lobby groups avoid a discussion about gun reform.

https://www.aafp.org/news/blogs/freshperspectives/entry/20190918fp-massshootings.html

The OP complains about ban all guns "hysterics" but I think blaming gun violence on mentally ill is even more stupid.

[Bettie]

195. I tend to lump in with mental health care

things like learning conflict resolution and anger management, both of which we need to be proactive, as a society, in urging people to learn. I do understand the point about mental illness, but I don't know where else to categorize these things.

And easy access to guns is the primary issue.

I personally believe that a strong secondary issue is that many of the perpetrators don't have the skills to deal with anger or frustration or even to identify what the real problems in their lives are, choosing instead to find someone else to blame and to punish.

They aren't technically mentally ill, but they are also not generally fully rational either.

I hope that makes sense, in some way. I wish, for example, that schools could teach kids to resolve conflict and deal with anger/frustration earlier, that it could be reinforced as they grow older, because a lot of parents don't or can't teach this.

[JonLP24]

198. I agree regarding anger management

Anger is certainly a cause for a lot of these shootings.

[Bettie]

199. Where does this get categorized though?

That is why I reference mental health care...maybe behavioral care?

[JonLP24]

200. I wouldn't worry about it

I didn't know specifically what you meant. The reason why I jump in and provide articles from psychiatrists because of the GOP talking points which actually hurt my feelings. I have schizophrenia, PTSD, and depression and am like the least violent person I'll allow someone to hit me and won't hit back. Also when someone blames a racist for mental illness as the stigma & discrimination make me more likely to be against discrimination in all forms.

As far as your overall points I agree with you especially regarding the anger management aspect. I just meant my reply regarding people with specific serious mental illness diagnoses like myself. I don't even like guns and am in the "ban all guns" camp. I know my position is unrealistic so am willing to compromise but I get scared when solutions turn toward mental illness or video games.

[Bettie]

201. Next time, I'll simply elaborate as to

what I actually mean.

Thanks for pointing this out and showing me a better way to get my point across. I appreciate it.

[uponit7771]

90. Not as good of an outcome as keeping mass kill devices out of the hands of the GP and making it

... harder to get a gun than a drivers licences.

The good guy with a gun is supposed to keep the bad guy with a gun from killing anyone not just a couple of people ... that't not what the GRAs are selling with said meme.

[uponit7771]

89. +1, the good guy with a gun did not stop the bad guy with a gun from killing people

[Polybius]

94. But he probably stopped him from killing more people

He may have killed 20 if he weren't neutralized.

[uponit7771]

95. Not the goal, the goal of the good guy was to keep the bad guy from doing ANY damage not just

... a little relatively speaking.

The meme is and always was bunk on its face

[Bettie]

99. With a shotgun, it is entirely possible he had

one dude he wanted to kill. Also, if he was a member of the church, as I've seen reported, he likely knew everyone was armed and he'd end up dead.

[USALiberal]

60. "they can shove it", LOL, OK tough guy! nt

[milestogo]

70. Only in Texas do guns belong in Church.

Most people do not bring weapons to worship services. Killing someone shouldn't be at the front of your mind when you are seeking the peace of God.

[Kaleva]

77. People here have come to accept mass shootings as routine

Used to be that a mass shooting would dominate discussions here for a few weeks at least. Now they just fade out after a few days.

The Gungeon and Gun Control Reform Activism groups used to be hopping. Now they are quiet.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

79. Funny thing there. Because looking at the picture that was shared...

...it was hard for me to tell who was the “good guy” with the gun and who was the “bad guy” with the gun. All I could see was two men with killing machines in their hands.

And if I were a LEO bursting on the scene, I probably would have been just as confused.

Thankfully it didn’t end that way although we still had multiple people shot and dead regardless.

The person who did stop the shooter had the benefit of professional LEO training. There are a lot of yahoos with guns however who think a 2 hour CC course gives them all the power to walk around thinking they can be a hero.

Lord knows we don’t need any more George Zimmermans in this world.

[Lexee]

81. So all these decades later, gun people have their story that the right man had a gun.

They finally have the story where the right person had a gun.

We went thru a lot of massacres and deaths to make this story to finally be a reality. A lot of accidental deaths of loved ones. One out of ?

I am not big on this issue. People are going to keep buying and owning guns. No one is going to take away anyone's gun. I find it incredible that now, gun people can have their story that it does too pay to have everyone armed because of one time.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

83. The Fallacy of Incomplete Evidence

Also known as Cherry Picking.

[uponit7771]

91. The good guy with the gun did not stop the bad guy with a gun from killing people, they have their

... deflection at best seeing their meme was selling the good guy was supposed to stop the bad guy from killing or shooting anyone.

A couple of people dead is worth the GP having easy access to mass kill devices to them ... it aint

[MarcA]

98. Another Consideration. Who pays the Ambulance and Hospital bills?

The church provided armed security. Did they provide Paid Medical Care?
If the deceased churchgoers had insurance was it enough to pay 100%?
This is a Serious and Sincere question in a nation of massive gun deaths and
injuries; or should the victims just have made better life decisions.

[Bettie]

107. If they got shot in church

obviously god planned it that way. Isn't that what all the church folks say when someone dies or has a misfortune, that they are being taught some kind of sick lesson?

[MarcA]

128. Yes many of them believe that and god says we have

easy access to unregulated guns but affordable healthcare is "socialist" and
"ungodly" or "unbiblical".

[AncientGeezer]

122. They weren't "church provided armed security"....they were volunteers.

[MarcA]

125. Provided armed security can be volunteers as well as paid.

Hopefully, they also had trained volunteer healthcare givers on hand as well.
May have actually saved some lives.

[AncientGeezer]

126. But they weren't....so it's moot

By definition a volunteer..."a person who FREELY OFFERS to take part in an enterprise or undertake a task."
I volunteer for my FD..I don't get or expect compensation.

[stillcool]

82. it's a sickness...arm everyone..

starting at 5 years old. Anyone who is black or brown, even the 5 year-old will be charged and convicted to life sentences if they dare shoot anyone. Everyone else gets free ammo for a year. But I want a border wall around my state.

[Bucky]

84. I'm not sad the crazed gunman got killed. But in New York...

I'm happy the anti seemed terrorists was NOT able to get his hands on a gun. Those stabbing victims are alive today because of New York state's gun laws

[cbdo2007]

85. And it was still too late - 2 people killed.

The goal is to stop these before they start, not just make them not as bad as they would be.

[uponit7771]

92. THANK YOU !!!

[Bettie]

101. +1

Yep.

[guillaumeb]

103. Imagine a country where churches and schools do not have armed guards.

Or, if one cannot imagine such a thing, vacation in Canada and no imagination will be needed.

[ego_nation]

104. The problem is, while someone with a gun was able to take out the shooter

the fact that people were armed apparently did not deter the shooter in picking that location for the attack in the first place.

Again, the shooter will ALWAYS have advantage over a crowd and will likely kill people before anyone can reach for their fire arm.

[MarcA]

124. Actually their good guy with a gun system failed.

The shooter was Observed by members of the security team due to his attire and
a security camera was focused on him earlier. An Armed member of the security team
moved and set down behind him Before the shooting. When the shooter got up and
drew his gun the security person also got up and drew his. The shooter fired first or at
least more accurately and shot the security team member who may or may not have
gotten a shot off into the wall. After another victim was shot the shooter was then taken
down by another security team member. So the good guy with a gun system was Reactive
rather than Proactive and failed to prevent 2 deaths, just like most shoot outs.

[uponit7771]

145. Oh wow, so a ... TRAINED ... good person with a gun couldn't stop the untrained bad person

... with a gun.

Even worse for the stupid meme

[MarcA]

171. Yes, the story was in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram paper and online.

They published several articles on the shooting in their December 30 and 31
editions and a couple of them mentioned the security person who was shot and
killed and the activities in the church before the shooting. The paper has a very
limited free articles policy before engaging a pay wall.

[Straw Man]

174. He wasn't trained in clairvoyance.

Generally someone has to do something bad in order to be identified as a "bad guy."

[uponit7771]

175. +1, therefore eliminate easy access to all firearms and make the owning if them harder than owningt

... a car.

Until we get clairvoyance, we restrict easy access to firearms

[Straw Man]

194. Because ..

+1, therefore eliminate easy access to all firearms and make the owning if them harder than owning

... a car.

... nobody has ever stolen a car and used it for a nefarious purpose, right?

[Hoyt]

146. That's the way I see it. They should have grabbed this guy with a history of anger at the church,

wearing a trench coat, with a fake mustache, guards picked him out of crowd, etc. Christ, that's a major failure on "guard's" part.

[uponit7771]

144. +1, the goal post have been moved to the good person with a gun will stop the bad person after

... people are harmed ... making the good person with a gun pretty useless relative to the meme pre goal post move.

[Alea]

108. Always carry

and ignore the haters

[XRubicon]

109. Please tell, where do you live where you are in fear every day.

That you need a gun everywhere you go.

[Alea]

112. lol

[XRubicon]

114. Enjoy!

[uponit7771]

142. ... while watching people getting killed and responding after they're dead? tia

[Fla_Democrat]

116. Location, location, location.

[Beartracks]

154. The TX laws are being praised for "working" and keeping it from "being worse." Uh...

... so it's been concluded that the death of those 2 parishioners is acceptable? One could ask the families of those 2 parishioners how much "worse" the shooting could have been. You know: for them personally.

==========

[Skittles]

163. yup

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/opinions/white-settlement-texas-church-shooting-moore/index.html

[uponit7771]

173. +1, yep the goal post has been moved from stopping BGWG to "not a lot of dead people"

[Jake Stern]

215. Why don't you ask the families how they feel about the armed parishioner taking down the shooter?

Daughter of Anton Wallace, a Deacon at the church

"Wallace has expressed gratitude for the armed church member who also serves as a security guard for the parish for bringing down the gunman.

“He is a hero to me,” she said. “I’m just glad everybody’s OK. I know my dad is up there with his sister, his parents, in a wonderful place. Not in pain anymore … He’s just in peace now. I know he’s in good hands.”

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/daughter-of-deacon-shot-and-killed-during-church-service-speaks-out/2283486/

[LovingA2andMI]

159. In a Town Called....

White Settlement No Less....

[RockRaven]

162. This perp had a sawed-off shotgun right? How many times could it be fired before it was empty?

Because the perp fired it twice, right? Before we praise the GGWG on the premise that a mass shooting was interrupted, we should understand how many, if any, discharges of the perp's weapon the GGWG prevented compared to disrupting him while he was trying to reload it (via bludgeoning, tackling, etc). If no weapon discharges were prevented prior to the first reload being necessary, then the GGWG didn't do anything except prevent an arrest and trial. If many discharges were prevented than a mass shooting was indeed interrupted. What specifically is known about the perp's weapon?

[dware]

166. So if I'm reading your post correctly,

you're blaming the security guard for shooting and killing the perp, thereby possibly preventing more killings?

[RockRaven]

168. You are not reading my post correctly then. I am asking for information which will clarify whether

the GGWG narrative is warranted or not.

I know people wanting to make judgments about specific incidents based on the facts of each case rather than their pre-chosen positions on the overarching issue is not the norm for gun convos in particular, but it is not all that hard of a concept to understand.

[ManiacJoe]

172. How many rounds depends on which model of the shotgun.

A 2-barrel (side-by-side or over-under) will give you two shots before needing to reload.
A pump action or semi-auto action will give you 5-10 shots depending on how many rounds fit in the tubular magazine.

I have seen no descriptions of the shotgun used. Nor have I gone out of my way to look for such details.

Edit: Kaleva beat me to it.

[Kaleva]

167. From what I'm reading, a sawed off pump action can hold 5-7 rounds.

Edit: I see some pump action shotguns with detachable magazines that hold 5-6-10 and even 20 rounds.

[RockRaven]

169. Thanks for the info.

I appreciate the direct response to what I was asking.

[Kaleva]

170. You asked an interesting question and it greatly depends on what type of shotgun it is.

A single shot shotgun, sawed off or not, holds only one round. A double barrel holds two rounds at most. Semi-automatic, bolt action and pump action shotguns can hold more.

This is the best description of the shotgun used that I can find so far and it doesn't say much:

"Wilson described the attacker's gun as a short-barreled 12-gauge shotgun with a pistol grip. Shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches long are restricted under federal law and can be legally owned in Texas only if they are registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."

https://www.mineralwellsindex.com/news/described-as-paranoid-and-violent-church-shooter-had-troubled-criminal/article_ae0ccc36-2bd5-11ea-a305-cb39bd199312.html

[Skittles]

164. here's another way to look at it

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/opinions/white-settlement-texas-church-shooting-moore/index.html

[pansypoo53219]

177. suicide is the new over the top gender reveal parties.

[myohmy2]

180. "All gunz gotta be BANNED!"

" Jack Wilson, a volunteer security member and former deputy reserve sheriff, helped stop a shooter at a Texas church. "

...even a broken clock is right twice a day...


" The nutcase had an ILLEGAL gun, (sawed-off shotgun,) and was a felon to boot.

He had no damn business having his gun. "

...999 out 1000 gun violence incidents it's the WRONG person using the gun to kill or maim...


...the fact is, if we didn't have hundreds of millions of guns floating around out there we wouldn't need to defend ourselves against so much gun violence...

...if we can't eliminate primate violence, we should at least try to limit their weapons to sticks...

[Demsrule86]

217. If no one had a gun, no one would have died. I don't want to live in a war zone.

[AncientGeezer]

225. How do you do that.." If no one had a gun,.."

That ship sailed...239 yrs ago.

[Demsrule86]

227. Bull shit...time to stop allowing people to be gunned down in theaters, churches...stores...the

streets...REGULATION and BACKGROUND CHECKS... those kids murdered in Connecticut had to be identified by DNA...as they were so torn up. Enough. Virginia is the first state where guns were on the agenda and the good guys...anti=gun folks won. It won't be the last. A gund should be followed from the moment of manufacture with a vin numbers to the moment of destruction and it is the responsibitlity of the owner to make sure it isn't used to gun downthe innocent. Also, insurance and licensing.

[AncientGeezer]

230. I ask again...how do you do that..no guns...

Serial # tracking....like a VIN...what do you do with the about 400mil firearms out there now?

And the pesky 2A thing....a right compared to a privilege.

Insurance and licensing...that could make poor people unable to own a firearm..costs too much to afford.
You play into the voter ID crap...you make their argument for them...if you put a cost on something that's in BoR's...what cost can you put on something that isn't?

[jcgoldie]

218. Way to use the NRA's exact slogans for defeating all gun control...

”So if anyone (like they have to me in the past) says "All gunz gotta be BANNED!" they can shove it.”

Seems like an apt suggestion for this thread.

[Demsrule86]

228. Bullshit...people still died.

[AncientGeezer]

232. And more likely would have been killed.. had it not been for Mr. Wilson.

1 is 1 too many...but is 2 worse than 3,4, 6,10 ?
There is NO perfect in life.....sick people do sick shit....good people like Mr.Wilson do heroic shit and stop the freaks.

You say.." Bullshit...people still died." because a dirtbag did what dirtbags do...
a sneak attack on innocent people....how many more may have been slaughtered.... if Mr. Wilson wasn't trained to act...and acted?