General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOn Revolutionary Chickens
Process:
Noun A series of actions or operations conducted to proceed to a particular result.
Verb To subject to a specific routine, to manufacture.
I tend to view things in two simple ways: systems and process. I think of various systems be it a family, a school, a work place, or a community like a mobile that hangs over an infant's crib. Every system seeks to find balance, in order to conduct the process for which it is intended. Healthy systems engage in processes that result in positive outcomes, while unhealthy systems produce negative outcomes.
The current US Senate is an unbalanced system, with 53 republicans versus 47 Democrats. Hence, on the first day of the impeachment trial, we saw numerous 53 to 47 votes on every proposed amendment by the Democrats. That was the expected outcome of these votes, since a system can only produce that which it contains. As Malcolm X noted, a hen cannot lay a duck egg
.and if a hen ever did, we would all agree that it is a revolutionary hen.
However, that Senate mobile is now engaged in a process that contains more than Senators. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is another piece on the larger mobile. The House Democrats prosecuting the case and the president's defense team are two other additions. Each has a unique process goal. And we can add yet another system the public which includes several sub-systems, including those hoping for conviction, those opposing conviction, and those not paying attention.
The president's defense team is playing to two groups, the first being those who are not paying attention. Thus, part of the defense is focused on discouraging people from paying attention, a common trait for those with republican tendencies. They say it's boring. The republican Senators proved this while the Democratic managers presented their case.
The second group is those who see what is going on, but understand nothing beyond emotion. Like magicians attempting to trick an audience, they stimulate people to see without perceiving. Forum members here perceive what they are doing, and understand why they do this. For these magicians want to convince this second audience that good is bad, and bad is good. It is that frustratingly simple.
These charlatans want the public to see no reason for the trial to include documents and witnesses. They know the republican Senators can ill-afford the public to perceive the absolute necessity of any documents or witnesses. So they insist the Democrats are being unreasonable. The defense team members are snake oil salespersons, who rely upon emotions to overshadow facts to sell their worthless product.
Our floor managers are making it hard on Trump's defense mobile. About 70% of the public that is paying attention understand the need for documents and witnesses. That's bad for the defense team, the republicans in the Senate, and it is even worse for the White House. Because that 70% perceive exactly why the republicans are trying to avoid a real trial.
We are witnessing the Democrats doing a great job of expanding the process. It will be hard for all of the republicans in the Senate to vote against the call for documents and witnesses. A number of them face uncertain re-election campaigns. They are trapped in a purgatory, not fully in Trump's camp, nor comfortable in being true to themselves.
They know that if the republicans vote 53 to 47 against having documents and witnesses, the Democrats floor managers and Senators are prepared to ask Chief Justice Roberts for a ruling. They have the right to request this, and Roberts has the right to rule that a fair impeachment trial requires documents and witnesses. At that point, the republicans need to consider as a group and individuals if they really want to vote 53 to 47 to overrule the conservative republican Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
It's an open question. Each must consider it in terms of their own political career, and how they want to be remembered. Many will prefer to avoid running the risk of having their head on a pike on the mar-a-logo golf course, by voting to overrule Roberts. But for several, openly disrespecting Roberts increases the risk of losing the next election. What is a moral coward to do?
Perhaps they should pay attention to the film of Adam Schiff talking about Robert Kennedy and moral bravery. And focus on perceiving, not just seeing. Most of them won't, but we should keep calling their offices, and demanding that they do. Because the momentum of the process has begun to shift, and if we get get four republicans, the momentum shifts more. In fact, we really only need three, to make a 50-50 ties that Roberts not Pence decides. Then, it's a whole new ball game. With documents and witnesses, we just might see what Malcolm X would agree are revolutionary chickens when it comes to convicting.
Peace,
H2O Man
well put as usual..Thank You
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)I'm watching the defense presentation over again. I have trouble believing it is actually this weak.
From what I have seen and heard they are playing a set hand with known results, they are sure of acquittal so they don't really need and the truth in there...An attitude of "that's my story and I'm sticking to it" if they get no more evidence as they truly want to happen they are home free. Without witnesses and relevant data they can all crow like roosters as if they caused the sun to rise
I find Jay Sekulow particularly obnoxious. He is such a fraud.
malaise
(268,717 posts)Excellent OP
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)I have trouble listening to him spout his lies. He needs incarceration.
coeur_de_lion
(3,676 posts)70% of the American people want witnesses. If the repugs say no to witnesses they have no chance of winning in November.
Even with witnesses Senate repugs will vote to acquit. Just my opinion but I don't give a shit what they do.
The American people are sick to death of the drama.
They can vote for no witnesses but if they do they will be gone November 3rd.
There is no recovering from the trump pResidency for the republican party.
They are already finished -- just waiting for the end to be official.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)The republicans have come to a fork in the road. One path leads to humiliating defeat, the other to total self-destruction. Let us hope they have the wisdom to make the right choice.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)They want to skip having witnesses so they can quickly acquit Trump and theyre assuming the people will quickly forget. But that wont happen and itll be Trump who screws up their plans. He will crow like the cock he is about being acquitted not once but twice. That boy cant help himself. Hell keep every American aware of his impeachment. So the Republican plans of sweeping anything under the rug will go bust.
But just as important is the fact that much more of Trumps underhanded ways will come out in a steady stream, just like it has in the last few months. And this too will keep peoples attention and reminded of the Senates overly quick acquittal. The Republicans are going to look really bad and the person they are protecting will be who causes their demise.
He is going to feel completely empowered like hes never felt before. It will be Trump unleashed.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)As Adam Schiff warned, if Trump survives this trial, he will unlease madness. And if the process were to include documents and witnesses, he will also unlease madness. For he is a mad man, who is reacting to pressure, without the ability to do anything good. 2020 is going to be a strange, sometimes dangerous, sometimes beautiful year. It demands our very best efforts.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)kentuck
(111,053 posts)Very possible.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)Right -- it is one possibility. The chances of it becoming reality is increased with each and every contact we have with those vulnerable Senators. Reports indicate their offices are being flooded with calls and e-mails. There's no doubt the Trump supporters are making their hopes heard. We need to apply maximum pressure.
kentuck
(111,053 posts)By making his comments.
It's really a very tough question for them: A fair trial or an unfair trial? It's very complicated for them.
The vote should be unanimous for a "fair trial".
That cannot happen if there are no witnesses permitted.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)Reports indicate that he is indeed the "leader" among the small group that is considering voting for witnesses and documents. If he folds, the others almost certainly will. But I think that he is looking at what the republican party is going to be in the post-Trump era.
First Speaker
(4,858 posts)...just sayin'...
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)Malcolm X came well before "Reservoir Dogs." (My sons tell me I would enjoy that movie.)
blogslut
(37,985 posts)I think he might. If he's smart he knows that the power of his branch is in as much danger as that of the Congress. Also, he's an Aquarius and they're wild cards.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)and for the exact reasons you note. Roberts is a conservative, who I disagree with on numerous things. But I know that he is, in his way, a constitutionalist. He's already responded publicly to Trump's attack on the federal courts. As far as I am aware, this is unique for a Chief Justice. He knows that Trump presents serious threats to the Constitution. He knows that the balance of that federal mobile -- with its three co-equal branches -- can not sustain if CCongress becomes weakened. The House has shown strength. Roberts will recognize his responsibility to try to influence the Senate to do its responsibility.
kentuck
(111,053 posts)I hope you are right.
He should rule on "executive privilege" and include the right of the Senate to call all witnesses necessary for a fair trial.
H2O Man
(73,510 posts)Exactly.
"Executive privilege" is a concept that is already well-defined in law. It isn't a mystery. Everyone knows what it is, and what it isn't .....and Trump's defense team is trying to pretend otherwise.