G-dammit. Romney is NOT a hero. Stop praising him. Just stop!
For F's sake, can we please STOP praising Romney for just doing his job and abiding by his oath?
Yes, I know he's going to be an outcast among the Trump cult. That doesn't make him a Democrat though. It doesn't absolve him of being a corporate raider who bought companies, loaded them with debt and then ran out on the pensions of the retirees of those companies by declaring bankruptcy.
It doesn't absolve him of believing that almost half the country are "takers."
HE IS STILL AN F-ING REPUBLICAN. He still wants to have you work for fewer wages and benefits while he has multiple multi-million dollar homes.
HE IS NOT OUR FRIEND. HE IS STILL A US OLIGARCH!
NOPE, NOPE, NOPE.
We continue to lose because we're too kind. FUCK ROMNEY.
Did you support him when he ran against Obama? Aside from ONE FUCKING VOTE what has changed about him?
For the position of Secretary of State, was humiliated, and later made a token sign of rebellion.
said by a democrat of over 55 years..... Female, very liberal and a Christian.
I do wish Romney had voted guilty on the obstruction of Congress.
I do applaud him for the first vote. Doug Jones is the Profile in Courage along with Manchin.
Wrong,he'll find out how vindictive those Cons can be and the threats have already started.
He showed courage that none of his fellow Republicans had, and he deserves to be commended for that.
That doesn't mean we have to vote for him or forget that he's still a Republican who promotes bad policies. But he deserves credit where credit is due.
Don't you be deceived. Mitt only looked out for Mitt. His vote was predicated upon what he thought would get him re-elected or elected to higher office. NOT on anything else.
His past as a corporate raider shows he has no conscience or soul. That he cares only about profit and power. To believe otherwise is to be a fool.
Time will eventually reveal the reason for his single vote yesterday, whatever it may be.
He is religious. I cant stand his religion, but it would require him to make an honest vote.
If Bloomberg, Biden & Sanders can run, he can run in 2024 as the anti Trump GOPer
If he believed in God as much as he claimed, I doubt he'd be a Republican voting 80% of the time supporting President Satan
I also fully believe he might just be testing the waters, to see if he can set up a facade of him being a "moderate" Republican who can attract "moderate" Democrats to vote for him in a last minute attempt to primary trump*, or in a run in 2024.
Our country needs all the help it can get now, from whatever quarter. And we should appreciate them for the stances they take during this crisis.
DO NOT FORGET HE IS A US OLIGARCH! He buys up corporations, loads them with debt and screws the employees and retirees.
He is first, and foremost, a Republican. Do not forget that. Just because we have a common enemy today does not mean he is your friend. That he shares your values and ethics. HE DOESN'T!
A mass murderer and opponent of democracy as much as Hitler. Yet we allied with him for a greater purpose. I agree with Romney on few if any things but will I take him as an ally in the war for our democracy, along with Biull Kristol, Rick Wilson and others. You bet and it's dumb and counter productive not to.
We are already in dire straits, in case you didn't notice. Creating alliances is how we get out of them, not by some purity tests, not at this time in our history.
So please don't put words in my mouth. Obviously the analogy went over your head. I'll try one last time: I will praise anyone like Romney, Wilson, whoever, from that party that stands up in this perilous time and call them a hero for doing what everyone in ther party should do but isn't. I want drumpf gone and alliances are on eay to do it. Deriding those who do make the right choice is one way to benefit the sicko and his ilk. It doesn't seem to be that hard to understand, really.
Romney's vote may be somethng that could sway the few undecided voters. He gave a great speech and did the right thing. Yeah I'll call him a hero for that one action, no matter what the purity police think.
But, getting back to Romney, he did 1/2 of a good thing, hardly heroic, especially when he knew his party was going to dictate the outcome anyway.
McCain was much more heroic when he saved Obamacare by his single vote.
Mitt is nothing but a self-serving half-hearted quisling.
It takes courage to stand up to 100% of your own people.
Ill never vote for him, but I can applaud what he did here.
Loophole loving Mitt?
Profits over morals?
Harmed a ton of folks in the process?
I didn't vote for Romney in 2012 and I (almost certainly, barring crazy circumstances) wouldn't vote for him in the future, but he deserves credit for what he did yesterday. With the way Trump and fellow Republicans are savaging him I feel like he deserves to have people who know he did the right thing defend him.
To go against his party like this takes courage and a backbone.
Doesn't negate his past actions, but at the same does demonstrate he is a man with beliefs as to his oath before god and his oath of office. Something other rethugs brush off.
he is the rarest of things: a Republican who chose to do the right thing...once.
So, I am grateful that he did that, but understand that he isn't likely to show humanity again.
Voted guilty after giving an outstanding, sincere and heartfelt speech. Castigating him or assigning less than noble motives to him is wrong and reflects poorly on anyone who would do so.
I phoned his office to thank him and you should too.
Romney didn't vote guilty on all charges. How he could vote not guilty on obstruction is a mystery. N
NO FUCKING THANK YOUS TO HIM!
The man is spineless and not worth any admiration.
McCain was one of the majority of senators who voted against repeal of the ACA... but he's the one lauded for it. Why? Because he was theatrical about it, because he built suspense, because he defiantly defied Trump to his face.
So let's take it. Let's blare it out. Let's say, "Trump was defied by a senior member of his own party! Ha ha!"
It will drive Trump batty, and he's going to do and say crazed and vicious things. The few remaining GOPers who have the capacity for survival, much less rational thinking, might respond by saying, uh, no, gonna distance myself from the crazy.
Some quietly leave the party-- some loudly leave the party. Some, I hope, will leave the president/vicepresident vote unchecked in November.
We don't have to call Romney a hero. Who cares? He did something that will have a bad effect on Trump. And I'm all for that.
the more Arizona Mormons might vote against him. While Utah is (probably) red forever, Arizona could be in play, and they have a lot of Mormons. What the heck-- I don't care why people vote against Trump, as long as they do. The enemy of my enemy can sit right down and have tea with me.
That sounds like how Conservatives view the world. You are either totally with us or you are against us. I agree that Romney has been historically and consistently opposed to what Democrats stand for. He has shown bad behavior frequently. He is not necessarily a hero, but he did do something pretty brave going against his party, for which he will pay a heavy price.
People acknowledging that he did the right thing doesn't mean that they don't understand that he is still a Republican and a wealthy person who has gotten his wealth in ways that have hurt others. It means that we acknowledge his stance. I doubt that anyone on this site would vote for him over any Democratic candidate in any election.
Not picking on your comment but need a place to hang a comment on his brave act. I agree partly with your comment.
I think we demean bravery when we use that word to describe what Romney did.
Trump will say some bad stuff but he does that anyway.
So will other republicans. When you hang out with snakes you get bit. But its not a real bite. Its some fools talking sh*t.
He still has his millions and the power and protection that provides. He still has armed body guards. He isnt going to be thrown out of any rich person club. His life isnt going change in any major way in my opinion.
Yes it is hard to go against your peers but we expect normal people to do that all the time.
There are real risks to a normal person standing up to power. Loss of job (livelihood), harassment, and violence.
He decided to take a stand for what is right, but it doesnt match the courage it takes for a normal person to do the same.
The only reason the word brave isnt laughable is in comparison to the rest of the craven republicans. Being the bravest in a pack of cowards doesnt mean he is really brave.
I acknowledge he took a stand which is more than the rest did.
Last edited Thu Feb 6, 2020, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)
Then we can go back to hating him on monday.
Seriously he did more than the rest of the senate republicans and even his relative running the rnc supports trump rather than him on this issue.
Acknowledging that is fair, but doesnt make me forget the rest. He voted against the obstruction charge.
Its pretty damning that partially doing his job makes him worthy of anything but thats how low the bar is.
I also Remember that Romney made his fortune as a vulture capitalists. He bought up companies, borrowed huge amounts of money which he used to pay himself huge bonuses. Then forced the companies to declare bankruptcy so he could make more money selling off assets leaving the companies and pensions saddled with huge debt. Vultures have the courtesy of waiting until you are mostly dead. Not Romney.
So to paraphrase I hope to read his obituary and smile. I dont mind the short term praise, but agree that he deserves to be remembered primarily for the harm he has caused.
Edit: remove false statement that romney didnt vote for witnesses. He did. Thanks democrattotheend.
Should have double checked. Ill fix that part if the reply. Thanks for correcting me
Nobody's asking you to get a Romney tat on your ass.
But if you can't acknowledge the simple fact that he took a step which will lead to real hardship for him and his family simply because it was the right thing to do, then that's your issue.
Every public figure has horrible things written about them online.
on edit: clarity
Trumpanzees don't play by any rules. They lie, smear, and attack wives and children.
directly specifying the reason to be something mean said about them specifically in reference to Mitt's vote yesterday?
That's really a reach.
"real hardship" with yesterday's vote, then we have nothing to discuss. I would just as soon argue with a Trumpon about what constitutes a "high crime and misdemeanor".
And since that particular experience ranks somewhat below an anesthesia-free colonoscopy on my bucket list, I'll take me leave of you now.
maybe he can be with a party that doesn't put kids in cages, for example
doesn't mean I have to like or vote for the man, but he did a good thing yesterday and he deserves kudos for standing up to his own party and the Mango Menace.
We may align briefly on an issue or two until a mutual threat is over, but they still have their own agendas.
I won't stop throwing Mitt Romney a compliment or two for standing up and calling #45 a crook and for voting for one article of impeachment. Considering the craven, corrupt behavior of the rest of his Republican colleagues, it's nice to see that one member of Club Pachyderm still had enough integrity to act according to his oath of office.
I hardly think this makes me a Republican or a Republican enabler. Mitt Romney is a Republican, not a Democrat. There was a time I voted for Republicans, but those days ended with the end of the Cold War and the end of the Soviet threat. That was thirty years ago: I've voted Democratic ever since. I still oppose the agenda Romney ran on in 2012 and anything Romney runs on in 2024 will be at least as horrible as his 2012 platform.
One more thing: I strongly disapprove of lockstep voting and ideological conformity. Such traits are endemic of both kleptocracies and the sorts of tyrannies of strongmen and tyrants plaguing most of the planet. That sort of behavior was a trademark of the old Warsaw Pact and Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime in Iraq.
Having said that, I might tip my hat to Mittsie today. That does not mean I've forgotten what he did in the past, nor does it mean that I won't work to elect Democrats this year.
How about you?
So he can tell each constituency that he voted like them. Don't forget that he voted against calling witnesses in the Senate trial. Or that he consistently votes as Moscow Mitch dictates.
The enemy of my enemy can still remain my enemy as well.
He and Collins were the only Republicans who did so.
I personally know of several Trump-hating Republicans that this resonated with.
Any moment the MSM is not bashing the Iowa Dems and not fawning over Trump is a good day for us. Trump is mad and that is good enough for me.
From Trump the day trump got acquitted.
And, he showed that he had some balls.
Well see if he is said to be a hero later on.
But, kudos to him for standing up the the cult leader.
I dont have to consider every Republican a fing Republican when I just happen to think they are wrong. Its tribalistic bullshit.
One doesn't have to be a hero to do something heroic.
Just look at Russia and the US from 1941-1945 during WWII. They came together to defeat common enemies and then were/are the bitterest of enemies (except to the Rus-publicans).
Nobody is saying that Romney has changed, but even CNN was saying this morning that Romney robbed Trump of his gloating. For that alone, I pay my respects to the one Republican who voted to impeach.
Anyone that stands up for their convictions when the pressure against it is extraordinary is a hero. Hes not the only hero in this American tragedy but he is one nonetheless.
Same with Michael Bloomberg. Although he is a Democrat.
he is a human being, who at a moment in time, did that right thing. Other humans often will acknowledge when another does something good and decent.
considering human nature and the effect of media.
this is sickening, all the accolades for people just supposedly doing THEIR JOB
NOW we are acting like they are HEROES if they find a guilty man GUILTY
IT IS PATHETIC
what he did at bane destroyed lives.
When I feel an impulse to respect Etch-A-Sketch Romney, I pause and remember the Romney who did what he understood to be the right thing MOST of the time. A true political moderate who was unwavering and unbending. Who nobody ever wondered where he was going be standing tomorrow, next month, or next year.
I mean, I'm not saying he's a hero, but there is still plenty of room for prause for someone who did the right thing in that one instance in quite difficult circumstances.
And I think, potentially, it could have a bigger effect down the line, particularly if he continues speaking out about trump. The tea party wing never trusted romney, but there were plenty of republican and independent voters who did. His total in the popular vote was only 2 million lower than trump's and he was running against a popular incumbent. There are plenty of folks like my mom, who voted for romney but didn't like or vote for trump, but are also not fans of figures like pelosi. And romney gives them a model and a path to move away from covering their eyes and voting for him in 2020.
It might even wind up factoring directly in a state like arizona, which has been trending blue and which romney did as well (percentage wise) as trump. Trump won that state by a mere 90 thousand votes last time. There are a lot of romney fans there (including a large mormon population), and this move could give those people pause and cover.
Is he a hero? No, i don't really think so? Does this make him suddenly right about all the shit he was wrong about before? No, of course not. But he did a good thing in a moment of consequence, and so I've got no problem with people praising him for that.
Still don't agree with him and probably would never vote for him, but I respect him for what he did.
Given how they are all kissing Dotard's ass no matter what he said about them before.
They are dishonestly pretending that it was OK for Dotard to do what he did. We expect even Republicans not to like these types of things, as in the Nixon administration.
They have all so lost their souls that one who has kept some of it should be praised. It does not mean we agree with his politics. But it does show he is an honorable opponent. Unlike McTurtle and Graham, etc.
We lose elections and the White House because we're too nice. Just like with Romney, we try to see the good in everyone.
FUCK THAT! We need to start playing hard and fast or the nation is doomed.
He maybe a nice guy overall, but he needs to do more things like this to make me consider him a true ally
I believe that Romney is sincere in how he views Russia as our greatest threat, and I believe his vote to convict was more to do with that than with Trump benefitting. Holding up the aid caused harm to Ukraine, which hurt our national security and benefitted Russia. That is consistent with his previous views, and also explains why he didn't vote for both articles.
....on anything else except this one selfless act.
Not because we're ignorant or unintelligent, but simply because we don't think about things like this the same way conservatives do. It is a lot harder for a conservative to stand up against his own tribe than it is for a liberal to do so. Hell, we're so accustomed to breaking ranks we pretty much expect it. We'd all drop dead the instant every Democrat agreed to toe the party line 100% of the time.
If Manchin or Sinema had voted to acquit, there would have been a huge hue and cry...here...that would have lasted all of 48-72 hours. Their vote would not have affected them one little bit with their Senate colleagues or the DNC. They would have been blasted rightfully for making the wrong decision. But they wouldn't face the ostracism and vitriol Romney's enduring, and likely for some time to come, if not for the remainder of his political career.
He betrayed his party with that one vote and they will never ever let him back in their good graces. Unless or until they stop being the party of Trumpism that is. Time will tell.
As long as there is US politics there will be at least two sides to every issue.
The gradations in between are what make things interesting. Romney was capable of gradation, where other Republicans were not.
With twenty-five more of him, we'd be rid of Trump.
why not the others?
What prompts grown men to stick their heads up their backsides like most have done, and say 'Nothing to see here!', instead?
Democrats across the nation were hoping for a few Republicans to stand up and do the honorable thing. When one actually does that, a faction of Democrats choose to shit on him. It's too pathetic.
.... on the perceived notion that the left is not a vindictive party. I have noticed that when it comes to never trumper's or former Republicans that many on the left seem to pick and choose who they embrace and who they vehemently condemn, even though they are all sending the same message. It's one thing to prove an underlying agenda, and quite another to assume an underlying agenda.
I dont know if Romney is a hero or not. By most standards he stood up to Trump when it seems others were too cowardly to do so according to Sherrod Brown. And Sen. Brown is someone who I believe is highly trustworthy. So at a minimum I believe Romney did something heroic.
and when you open the package,,it is still courage inside. I understand your point, but Mitt showed some courage imo.
to understand why Romney's act did take courage. We know he did the right thing, he knows he did the right thing, so why should doing the right thing make someone courageous, perhaps heroic even?
Because he is in a group that sees loyalty and betrayal as a morally significant issue. Liberals are used to shifting coalitions, overlapping loyalties, and dissent within the ranks. We don't like it when someone is disloyal to the group (DU TOS anyone?), but we don't typically feel the person was morally repugnant to take a stance we don't share or take an action that goes against the party line. Democrats who break ranks are so common we bitch about them and move on. Republicans who break ranks are seen as immoral by their fellow conservatives.
It probably did cause Romney a lot of heart ache to do what he did, because he felt he had no choice but to violate the "in-group" of which he is a part to stay true to other moral values he holds equally important. He may have wrestled with his decision as a moral dilemma. And he knew damn well he was going to be eaten alive by his own when he did it.
A synopsis of moral foundations theory is here. https://moralfoundations.org/
If you're curious how you score, you can take the moral foundations questionnaire here. https://moralfoundations.org/questionnaires/
People are incredibly flexible, that's why we're so successful as a species.
We change religions, we change mindsets, even languages! (Although that one is harder the older one gets).
If he's so agonized about "doing the right thing" because the political party he's chosen won't let him (what a baby!) he CAN CHANGE SUPER EASILY!
No pity or admiration from me for doing 1/2 of the right thing.
that's a serious "tribal" situation.
Romney can walk away from the Republican party any time he wants, he just chooses not to do so.
not that it is done well, but that it is done at all.
I suspect he still has dreams of being the rider on the white horse, arriving to save the Union (which he hasn't the guts to ever do), but we'll give him credit for showing a bit of the backbone he pretends to have. Yes, he is still a craven greedhead but this may be one of the few good things he'll be remembered for. Let him have that---tRump will see that he pays dearly for it.
Last edited Fri Feb 7, 2020, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)
2. He was the first in history to vote to convict a member of his own party.
3. He shamed the GOP publicly. He showed them what moral courage in the face of adversity looks like.
4. As has been noted, he stole the news cycle, and Trump has already set the wheels of revenge in motion against him.
I could go on, but everyone here knows what he did, and what was at stake.
I ask you and others here to please consider the ramifications of not accepting anyone into our ranks (even temporarily, like Romney) who doesn't toe the line in every aspect like some want to see.
This is why I'm voting for Joe Biden. We can hate and mistrust the GOP for so many good reasons but when we're successful in November our future Democratic president is going to have to work with a bipartisan Congress because... well... that's how our government works, for good and for evil, and it has ever been thus. There will always be work to do.
I've read many stories on Twitter about people leaving the GOP. Public figures, some of them, and some of them will be our friends and neighbors and co-workers. Some on our side of the aisle will excoriate them because they didn't leave soon enough, they should have been smarter/more compassionate/more aware/less brainwashed/on and on and on or they would have left sooner, before Trump, because of Bush, during Reagan, couldn't they see, why didn't they...
How do I know this? I'm in my 50s. I was raised in a staunchly conservative Republican family. Our friends were Republican. Our church friends were Republican. I was Republican because that's all I knew, I believed what I was taught, and what I was taught didn't include questioning authority or thinking for myself, because believe me, that acceptance of authority is an intrinsic part of conservatism. I left the GOP in 2012. I wish with all my heart now that I could say I voted for President Obama and I miss him terribly now.
But I didn't not vote for him because of any reason at all that was connected to racism, it was 100% because I'd never in my life (and I'd voted in every presidential election since I was old enough to vote for Reagan) voted for a pro-choice candidate. Ideologically, good religious conservatives simply didn't cross that line. Those unfamiliar with growing up conservative have NO IDEA how deeply and strongly held is that conviction. I know there are a lot of reasons for that conviction, not all of them based in concern for the unborn. There's authoritarianism, sexism, misogyny, lack of compassion, lack of respect for autonomy... but that's not the point I'm making right now. It's absolutely THE reason that religious conservatives will stick with Trump through hell (we've been there for 3 years now) or high water. They see him as God's imperfect instrument and those in power now are using that belief (highly apocalyptic) to keep and hold their vote for 2020.
In order to defeat Trump we need a candidate who's willing to reach across the aisle and bring in the people who regret their first vote for Trump. I think Kamala Harris would have done so, she was my first choice. Woman, woman of color, strong, compassionate, intelligent, capable, YOUNG. I think Biden can pull it off - if he chooses Harris or Warren as his running mate. The vice presidential candidate is of significant importance this election, but ultimately, Trump is only afraid of Biden. This is what we know, that Trump sees Biden as his kryptonite.
I voted for Hillary in 2016 and all Democratic candidates straight down the ballot. I'm ready to do the same again, this year and every year I have left. And I welcome anyone willing to take that step across the aisle even if it's only on one issue, or one vote, or one election. Let's take what we can get and give them more reasons to take a second step, or a third. The MAGA are mostly lost forever, but what won me over was having many conversations with liberals who rationally, kindly, and patiently won me over. They didn't do it by beating me over the head because I'd been stupid enough to be a Republican for so many years. I really, really, hate the idea of us going too low because that's what TrumpMAGA does and that's the only thing that works now. We lose something important when we go that low, that's hard to get back.
We need the center to join us if we're going to beat Trump in 2020, hold the House and flip the Senate. We can do this, but we won't do it by circling our wagons and setting up checkpoints.
Sorry for the long post.
And I am glad you are a democrat now. It must not have been easy for you to do this transition amongst friend and family whom I assume still are republicans.
are still conservative, but as time goes on I've gotten better at introducing ideas that they've literally and absolutely never considered before or seen in that light before. I'm still learning, and I've found DU to be quite important in that way, still seeing things in a new light all the time, so I read all the voices that I can here.
And thank you for your heartfelt post. I also came from a Republican background; I just shook it off earlier than you did.
That's one of the reasons why the really deep MAGA conservatives fear and loathe college. It opens minds.
I didn't go to college out of high school because my parents wanted me to go to a Catholic college and I didn't want to, so I deferred and said I wanted to work for a year first. I was too under the authority of my parents even at 18 to defy them so that was my way of doing an end run around them. Life got in the way after that, but I made sure that all my kids went to college and they did. I followed my youngest in and graduated with a degree in psychology and I'd dearly love to spend the rest of my life researching right wing authoritarian personalities, conspiratorial thinking and digital misinformation and propaganda.
He did a very courageous thing, because he knew it was the right thing to do.
that people do.
as am I. Romney appears to me as a hero, and I already sent him a thank-you note.
However, he did earn some of my respect. Whether he will keep it is up to him.
I'll give him credit for not caving - for keeping his oath.
It is the absolute bare minimum and more than a single other Republican in Washington was willing to do.
Why is it that whenever a Republican or Conservative breaks with Trump and the rest of the GOP thugs ..instead of looking at the glass as half full, so many attack them? Romney will be pilloried by the Trump thugs. ...and now he is attacked by the very people who hate Trump and are loosing ground to this orange clown..
If this keeps up..NO ONE will ever break with the GOP ..and Trump...
His chances of reelection are growing because of the sheer indifference, bigotry and stupidity of the American people.. We are loosing democracy and we should welcome allies when they come to us..instead we demand purity and chase them away..
... is acting with courage here. I don;t agree with him on most issues. I don;t agree with Bill Krystal on most issues, or George Will.
But they oppose Trump, and for now, that makes them allies, if not actually friends.
for a politician, whether republican or democrat, to play to the gallery and tell the base what they want to hear. It takes real backbone to go against the grain. This is precisely what Romney did. In doing so he must have been fully aware that he was going to bring the full, hellish, wrath and vengeance of Trumpism down on top of his head. Yet he still acted. He must have been fully aware that he was consigning himself to permanent pariahdom in Republand. Yet he still acted.
Those who take action of this sort are invariably in a lose/lose situation: they are seen as a cross between Vidkung Quisling and Benedict Arnold by their own side (this has been more than borne out) while viewed with cynicism and suspicion by the other (more than borne out, unfortunately, by some of the postings here). Romney must have been aware of this. Yet he still acted.
You could take the cynical view and argue that he wrestled with his conscience and this time, atypically, his conscience won out.
I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
Who knows? The section of Romneyites who switch sides or stay at home following this episode could be outcome determinative in November.
From Tuscany, one cheer.