I proved to my sister that she hates Obama more than she supports Rmoney...

[cynatnite]

She hit all the RW talking points...even the most idiotic ones. No matter how much evidence I showed her, she would ignore it and move on to something else. In the middle of the discussion about Obamacare she suddenly typed "show me the birth certificate". I was a bit taken back because it came out of the blue. I wondered if she harbored birther sentiments.

I copied and pasted the relevant information from the constitution and also the Naturalization Act of 1790. I wondered for a second if I had actually convinced her.

She went on with all the talking points about Obamacare and I hit her with Romneycare in Massachusetts. I told her she can thank Mitt Romney for Obamacare.

She was a bit pissed. She continued on FB to post more RW crap about Obama and I decided to just stop her with facts with every one of them.

Then finally she posted another pic saying that Obama screwed up the US and he's fired...you know...blah blah blah. Anyway, I laughed about it and ridiculed the picture for it's revisionism. It was really funny.

Finally I just told her that she hates Obama more than she supports Rmoney. The evidence is the fact that she did not post one thing that supports a Rmoney presidency.

So, then she deletes every FB posting she made for the night and only said two words to me: "Fuck You".

I love my sister and she'll get over this, but I know she won't change her mind one bit. She's got a racist streak in her and I hate that she's teaching her kids this crap, but there's nothing I can do about it. I hope that I can somehow influence at least the older one since she is on FB.

Anyway, that the best way I have found to deflate a Rmoney supporter. They hate Obama more than they support Rmoney.

[KarenS]

1. I think we have the same Sister,,,,

I've given up trying to "educate" her,,,, it's willful ignorance.

It's also very sad.

Good luck.

[Mojorabbit]

2. Same here. I finally just gave up

Both her and her husband do not care about facts. I am really amazed that this has happened to her but I know when to give up.

[central scrutinizer]

33. same here, minus the racist part

Whenever I debunk her forwarded right wing screeds, she counters with, "well my sovereign lord Jesus Christ will sort it all out when he returns." Then I slap my forehead and give up.

[phasma ex machina]

3. With all due respect, love of sister ought to come before politics. I don't talk politics with my

family.

[cynatnite]

4. Of course it does...

My love for her will never change. She's always willing to engage in the discussion and she approaches me all the time. Most of the time I just ignore it. Tonight, I decided not to.

[Carolina]

28. while I agree

and fortunately, am not in that situation, it would be hard for me to overlook such hatred, vitriol and racism in anyone!

This is especially so because the rightwingers -- kin and non-kin -- are always loudly vociferous, in your face and WRONG. We can only be quiet, tolerant, and turn the other cheek for so long. Such willful ignornace in someone whose last resort retort is "Fuck You" is exactly why this country is doomed. Sorry, to the OP, but people like her sister are akin to weeds and roaches because they spread their ignorance and the hatred.

[uppityperson]

39. With all due respect, that depends. "love of sister" and discussing politics doesn't

necessarily mean you must chose 1 or the other. People who love each other can argue.

And whether or not you chose to "love your sister" rather than be politically active depends on the sister, the family, the situation. I've a sister who divorced her larger birth family and we all are better off for it.

[Generic Brad]

45. Tell that to my family

I was not allowed to talk politics but they could shred Democrats with impunity. I am currently exiled for not agreeing to terms.

[hollysmom]

51. sounds like when I visit one of my brother's house.

A family that thinks Limbaugh is funny. That would be my S-I-L's family and my brother just goes along, they are from Italy and love to tell Polish jokes and blonde jokes. I am both Polish and blonde and have objected, but they tell me I have to get a sense of humor - so one day I told an Italian joke. I see them every other year now, they live 20 minutes away from me. I see my sibling who moved to NC twice a year. Family Pfft.

[RoccoR5955]

5. We don't get to choose our family.

How unfortunate, huh?

[cynatnite]

6. Nope, we don't and she really is a good sister...

She's been there for me and I try to be there for her. Politics is another story.

[eqfan592]

8. After reading your story, I realized that my father-in-law is exactly the same way.

Him and my wife have had some interesting exchanges that she's shared with me, and not ONE of his arguments involved anything positive about Romney, just his own negative thoughts about Obama. And no matter how much data I was able to throw his way to counter his RNC BS, he still held fast to his negative view. I actually get along really well with my father-in-law thankfully, but knowing him as I (and my wife) do, I think race may actually be an issue. He voted for Pres. Obama in 2008, but I think that had more to do with him not liking Palin more than it did him actually supporting Pres. Obama.

[mykpart]

9. I think the people who vote for Romney this year

are simply voting against Obama. It wouldn't matter if Satan was running against Obama. But then I remember when John Kerry ran, and my fave Dem slogan was "Anybody but Bush!." I believe these people would hate Obama if he were white, but if they can villainize a black President, it validates their racism.

[renate]

23. I think you're right

I could imagine people being all pumped up to vote for Bush. (Ick and everything, but I could imagine it, because of the whole who would you want to have a beer with thing.)

I could imagine people being all pumped up to vote for McCain. (The maverick thing.)

I honestly cannot imagine anybody but Mormons (he's one of their own) and Wall Streeters (he's one of their own) being genuinely enthusiastic about Romney. He is just such a robot. But he is not Obama, and for some people, that's literally all it takes.

[hfojvt]

10. Unfortunately, it would appear that DU hates Romney

more than we support Obama.

At least when I asked for reasons to support Obama, I got next to nothing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021212113

I would ask you the same thing. Give me your top three positive reasons for supporting Obama. Not for opposing Romney, but for supporting Obama.

Truthfully I was not only saddened by the lack of substantive response to my thread, but surprised. I really expected better from DU.

[cynatnite]

12. Sure...

Obamacare, Lily Ledbetter, Gays can serve openly in military, Osama bin Laden is dead, and his national security record. There are more, but that's right off the top of my head right now. Of course, there other things I don't like. I don't think we ever get what we want 100% of the time. It's always a mixed bag.

I like Obama and I think he is a good president. He's done stuff that warrents a second term, IMO.

[great white snark]

34. Ah, but will your response be "impressive" enough?

I like it and agree completely.

[hfojvt]

41. it's probably not going to persuade somebody who is undecided or opposed

"Obamacare, Lily Ledbetter, Gays can serve openly in military, Osama bin Laden is dead, and his national security record."

Obamacare? You would try to persuade somebody just by saying "Obamacare"? You would need to explicate more, to explain why you think Obamacare is a good thing, AND you will also be explaining against the wind. The person you are talking to is likely to feel the same way about Obamacare as they do about a rattlesnake bite. Imagine trying to explain to somebody why getting bit by a rattler is a good thing.

Osama should probably be much higher on the list - his death would be seen as a good thing by most voters.

Including Lilly Ledbetter might work if your target audience is all female. Otherwise, it is less persuasive unless you bring the men in by mentioning fair pay for your spouse, your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, etc.

Similarly mentioning DADT is probably not gonna sell to a straight audience, or a moderate. That might help to persuade an angry liberal, who is now being worked up about Dolangate, but not with a more moderate or conservative audience.

Myself, I would start with jobs - manufacturing jobs. Cars still being MADE IN AMERICA. Even the most racist or homophobic or sexist person will think that is a good thing. Jobs for Americans, and things made in America.

[Tennessee Gal]

25. I posted on your thread, but now cannot find it in GD, except through your link.

Strange.

Perhaps I am overlooking it, but I don't think so.

[hfojvt]

40. it can fall off the front page fast

as other, newer threads are posted and kicked. Unless a thread gets lots of replies, it can sink fairly fast.

[treestar]

38. I dont agree

There are plenty of pro Obama posts, but the negative people swarm around. Some people hate Prosense just because she is always positive. Seems they hate anything positive and have to latch onto the negative for a reason to do anything.

[progressivebydesign]

43. Ugh. Seriously???? We supported the President LONG before Romney rode in on Ann's horse.

Your argument is moot.

Think about it.

[hfojvt]

47. Did we now?

Or did we just hate McCain/Palin and before that hate Hillary?

I know that I was more ABC (Anybody But Clinton) than I was pro-Obama.

[noiretextatique]

44. Here's my reason: He is best candidate

If there was a better candidate, s/he would get my vote. But there isn't. Besides that, I like Obama, and I think he's done a remarkable job, especially given the hate, insanity and obstructionism directed at him.

[abumbyanyothername]

52. Top three things about Obama

1) A tax plan that raises the top marginal rate. Not enough, but at least it raises it.

2) ACA.

3) Out of Afghanistan by 2014. Not soon enough, but still out.

[bhikkhu]

11. Some people's minds just revolve around hate

I don't get it myself, but its pretty easy to recognize in people once you look for it. There is always a favored group that is exempt from judgement, and then everyone else is subject to some type of hatred or other for some kind of deficiency or other.

It may be based on anything at all, but I think the dominant theme is general hatred of people. Once you hate people in general, its easy to justify and vocalize by hating mexicans and blacks as groups (for example - the list could go on to chinese, gays, jews, catholics, muslims, bankers, liberals, etc), for whatever grab-bag of despicable traits. Whatever the reason that is given to hate a group, I think the hate comes first, and the rest is just window dressing.

But then people can also imagine themselves to not be racist or bigots, as they can point out black and mexican members of the "favored group", which they of course imagine themselves to belong to as well. Everyone wishes to be good and kind, so allowing exceptions offers proof of that. The essential thing is that there is only a small group which is fit to be rulers and owners, and the notion of equality is the biggest barrier to what the bigot imagines justice to be.

[lexw]

16. I grew up...

...with one of my parents constantly using derogatory terms for people of different races. I recall not understanding what was meant by the terms, and why there was so much animosity—I just couldn't get my brain around it. Somehow, I understood this was not nice, and I rose above it. That parent even used a bad term for the hospital help while on death's doorstep. Sad.

[nanabugg]

58. Who are these "sisters" married to? Or are they just self-haters on their own?

For most women to hate Obama so much, they must be not only racist but stupid also. I have women in my family who really don't like Obama's positions on abortion and same-sex marriage but to a woman they will vote for him because they all believe he will be a better President for their families and for the country.

[Dustin DeWinde]

13. Interesting posts on this thread

But if you love your family members, and I'm sure you do, don't give up on them. Every time you inject sanity into a teabagger's. life, America wins.


BTW not laughing at racist jokes is a good start.

[cynatnite]

14. I did not laugh at her racism...

I did however laugh at the revisionist photo she posted. It was not racist.

[lexw]

15. Once the Fox News /Rush Limbaugh chip is inserted...

...it looks hopeless. My sister and mother (RIP) are proof of that.

Although, I did see one post from a fellow DU'r, saying (after seeing Clinton's 2012 DNC speech) he regrets his years of hating Clinton in the 90's and believing Rush—his views were altered by the Bush years. So, maybe there is hope. ...but sadly, not for my little sister.

[trueblue2007]

17. WE HAVE THE SAME SISTER

I think the only reason "Julie" likes romney so much is because she is pro-life and she says romney is too.

she says this


I am not voting for Romney to be my Pastor but my President

[tomm2thumbs]

18. tell her to write in 'Gingrich' to protest because Romney isn't going to win anyway

at least she can vote her conscience and feel good about her voting from her beliefs

(this is especially easy to convince someone to do if they are in an already-blue state)

[Yooperman]

19. I have some in my family that can't see how ignorant

they are on facts. They post only negative and mostly inaccurate postings on Facebook. I have been pretty quiet with my postings although I won't let them post incorrect information. I usually will ignore their negative posts like "He didn't put his hand on his heart during the Pledge of Allegiance so he must be UnAmerican!" .... or after the first night of the Dem convention one sister posts "The same old story! It's time for a change!"

But when they try to say he was trying to block Veterans from voting in Ohio... or the debt under Obama is more than ALL the previous Presidents combined... I jump on them. I have tried to explain the new healthcare laws and how they are helping the millions across America...

But I won't hold my breath... I told them I know I can't change their minds...but won't allow them to spread lies. Most consider themselves "Christians" so when I get them promoting lies or inaccurate information I know it bothers them that they didn't check out the facts first before blindly reposting the propaganda.

I also know many of their friends will see my postings also... so I may influence them somewhat...

Lastly... one sister who is really on the God Squad..... finally posted that she really can't get passionate about Romney and that she may not vote this year. I thought to myself ..well I maybe influencing some people! I didn't respond to her stating this ... just figured I would let her be... she could NEVER vote Democratic since they support the right to choose and that is the crux of the problem.

Good Luck in you circles... Just know you are not alone.

Peace

YM

[cynatnite]

20. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of them will just stay home. n/t

[xxxhelal]

21. Spam deleted by Violet_Crumble (MIR Team)

[Freddie]

24. Don't attempt to reason with the "pro-lifers"

They have one issue and that is all.
"Obama supports killing babies up to the moment of birth" is a big one. The worst are the idiots who think that EC and the Pill are "arbortifacients"; they rant on about "forcing churches to pay for drugs that cause abortion".
Support for the baby *after birth*? Acknowledgment of the mother as a human being? Forget it.
Brainwashed sheep.

[Mariana]

29. They go even further than that

and claim Obama supports killing babies after they're born. Seriously. You're right, they can't be reasoned with.

[Firebrand Gary]

26. Haha, you're funny! and....more polite than me.

This weekend (Sunday) I have this huge family reunion to go to and I am quite sure the topic of the election will come up. I'm going to try your angle and see how I do.

I've gotten to the point that I abstain from discussions that are ideological, its to taxing for me. However when it comes to policy, I'm all over it!

With potato salad in hand, I am going to call out the haters!

[randome]

27. I've found the best way to 'engage' a family member is to not.

My grandmother was a bigot, although she had a kind heart. She was a strict Baptist and always tried to convince me to attend church.

Over the years, however, she was forced to come to the conclusion that "Not all the good ones are Christians." Meaning me.

I changed her outlook over the long term by living a good life and being kind to her.

I think directly confronting bigots only ends up hardening their position. Granted, there are times when it is necessary to do that.

On a macro level, in-your-face protests are needed. But on a micro level, dealing with individuals, a more nuanced way of 'converting' them proves out.

My Aunt says her church friends will probably vote for Obama, not because of his policies, but because he's nicer.

[Tennessee Gal]

30. I engaged a minister I know in my small town recently on FB.

Last edited Sat Sep 8, 2012, 09:56 AM - Edit history (1)

He started pushing the 2016 movie out about Obama, encouraging people to find out what Obama is "really all about." Later he posted that "God is grieved" over a President who is apparently taking stances that are not Christian (in his mind). I let both posts go without comment after considering for a day or so whether to respond.

AND THEN I HAD ENOUGH!

He posted a picture of George Washington and Obama with the following quotes:

George Washington: "Christianity and Morality are the pillars this country is built on. No man can claim to be a patriot if he tries to subvert these great pillars."

Obama: "We do not consider ourselves to be a Christian nation."


The caption underneath these pictures and quotes was this:

"Guess which one knows more about what this country is supposed to be."


I could not stand it any more so I looked up the Obama quote and posted this --

The entire Obama quote is this:

"One of the great strengths of the United States," the President said, "is ... we have a very large Christian population -- we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values."


The minister then commented:

"Sometimes I wonder where the Presidents values really are. If we are bound by a set of values where do those values come from ? Are they from the Muslim faith ? George Washington's statement was, "that Christianity was a pillar of the nation." When we remove, or chip away at a pillar the house can began to crumble and eventually fall. I truly don't believe when President Obama made this statement he was speaking for the majority, nor from correct history."


I then responded with this because I knew what he was getting at:

So, you think Obama is a Muslim?


His response: Thank you for your post. Sorry it took a while to get back to you. Been busy. I really don't know if President Obama is a Muslim ; but I think he is Anti - Colonialist to the point of denying true American values ( moral and political). He says he's a christian; and I feel comfortable leaving that judgment in Gods hands. I do disagree with him on moral issues and his leadership of America. I just can't see how God can honor our country if authority takes a stand against so many values that I know from Gods word do not match Gods heart. I'm not narrow minded ; but I do have a single focus. Blessings to you.


My response: I am a Christian and I seem to have different opinions from you. I will leave it at that.


That pretty much put an end to that thread.



I wanted to say this, but did not: Yes, you are narrow minded, a bigot, and probably and a birther. If you consume your time watching Fox News and reading right wing extremist web sites promoting conspiracy theories, you will be filled with lies and hatred. I think we all have a responsibility to research for facts, not rumors or innuendo, and facts prove that some of the ideas you are supporting are very much not how Jesus taught us to behave.



But now he has posted this and I am fuming: Hey President Obama. I think saving the children begins with keeping them safe in the womb not protecting the ozone!!!


Yep, that is the wonderful right wing position of loving all the babies until they are born.



I will probably not respond to his posts unless I see him post something he claims is factual and I know it to be a lie.

One has to be careful in small towns for the sake of jobs and business. Believe me, I could give them all a good ass whipping.

[crazyjoe]

31. why would someone cause problems within their family over a politician?

Do you think for a second they would do it for you?

[crazyjoe]

32. you win!! and your sister says "fuck you". congratulations !!

[treestar]

37. Some people can disagree without causing "problems in the family"

I suggest a family that cannot discuss anything religious or political without "problems" is the family with the problem.

[B Calm]

35. Willful ignorance is as powerful

as Battered Wife Syndrome!

[HopeHoops]

36. Face it - there's nothing about rMoney to support. It's all about hating Obama, Dem and black.

That's all they see. He's a Democrat and he's black. There's really nothing positive to present regarding rMoney, or rLyan for that matter. All they have are negatives and no specifics on what they would do. "Trust me" from a guy who is hiding what has to be some pretty damning stuff in his tax returns? I don't think so.

[progressivebydesign]

42. I must be strange. But even if a sister or brother is like that and writes "fuck you."

They'd be out of my life. Just because you share a common parent or two, doesn't mean you have to like them or even be in contact with them.

Sorry, but I see something like this and your sister is a racist, and says "fuck you" to you, and you're "I love my Sister." Sounds like abusive marriage....

[cynatnite]

46. My sister posted a very racist pic tonight...

There was a photo of MLK with the quote, "I have a dream". Then there is Obama with the quote, "This is our nightmare". It came across to me as very racist. I debated on whether to say anything. I opted not to.

Instead, if she posts this garbage, I'm going to post polls showing Rmoney losing on my own. I'm not going to engage her anymore. It's not worth it.

[Kath1]

48. Sound like a good idea not to say anything

I, too, have a Romney-supporting sister (and bother-in-law). They have no love of Romney, just hatred for Obama. Very sad.

Told my sister yesterday that I watched both conventions and am more convinced than ever that the Republican party is a a gang of selfish, racist, homophobic pigs. Told her they would set women back 100 years. Asked her if she noticed the diversity gap in the crowds. Asked her if she is part of the 1%. Told her she is waaaay too inteligent to buy into this BS.

She told me I was just an unreasonable liberal, but I could tell I made an impression. Her husband is a lost cause.

I don't get into anything political on FB.

[unc70]

49. Curious what was relevant from Naturalization Act of 1790? Repealed by Act of 1795.

I usually see it cited when trying to muddle the natural born definition to include children of citizens born abroad. Whatever it might have meant, it really has not validity since it was completely repealed by the Act of 1795.

[cynatnite]

50. Thanks for setting me straight. I'll remember that in the future. n/t

[uoatyg]

53. Spam deleted by Warren DeMontague (MIR Team)

[cynatnite]

54. Sorry, you can't stay. n/t

[Brother Buzz]

55. Got another source for that HOT story besides the Washington Times?

I didn't think so.

[ScarlettOhara]

56. In addressing the two subjects that have evolved in this thread:

I'll say this:
The main reason to support Obama is to have a President who will veto extreme right-wing legislation that might come out of Congress, like Medicare vouchers and "personhood" status for zygotes. But over and above Obama's many accomplishments (www.cutthecrap.com) is what Biden said: "Bin Laden is dead; GM is alive." And Biden also illuminated why these two accomplishments are so important to the heart, soul, and pride of America. Just imagine if it were the opposite: "GM is dead; Bin Laden is alive." What would that say about our country?

The second subject is about people who can't be persuaded by facts. There are many psychological reasons, but I believe that the main reason is fear. Fear of change; fear of the future; and fear of "the other." But after listening to "Fox in Friends" in the morning, Rush on the way to work and thoughout the day, and O'Reily and Hannity at night for years, the "dittoheads" have developed a cult mentality, which by definition rejects anything contrary to their brainwashing. Simple as that. (Read about the psychology of cult members.) Our efforts to combat them by citing facts are useless. The only thing that can be done is to work to get the propagandists off the air -- much like the people who have petitioned sponsors to drop Rush's show.

But this cult element in a modern democracy is dangerous to the system itself (as evidenced by Tea Party members in the House). And let me warn that the "dittoheads" already believe that so-called "liberals" are out to destroy the country. It's not a stretch to anticipate that they could easily be reved up to take the next step beyond verbal assault. And if Rush, Hannity et al insinuate that they should, they would at least think about it.

[ScarlettOhara]

57. Correction: it's www.pleasecutthecrap.com. n/t

[davidpdx]

59. Family and politics don't mix sometimes

Especially when people on opposite sides of the spectrum. I just read another post about the woman who's daughter is being influenced by her Republican boyfriend.