George Zimmerman wants Trayvon Martin's School Records

[pepperbear]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/07/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-school-records_n_1865409.html


Former neighborhood watch leader George Zimmerman wants to use Trayvon Martin's school records as part of his defense.

Zimmerman's attorney said Friday he has sent subpoenas to the schools the 17-year-old Martin attended in the Miami area. The subpoenas request disciplinary notices, suspensions and tardiness records among other things.

Don't.Even.

[rfranklin]

1. That should explain everything...

The fact that he cut school proves that Zimmerman had to shot him.

[TBF]

58. Well sure - that and the hoodie are indefensible. nt

[etherealtruth]

2. At what point is this relevant?

Is the implication that we now "get to' stalk kids that (may) do poorly in school and murder them?

[Fawke Em]

38. Even more to your point, how would Zimmerman even KNOW that

Martin may have been doing poorly in school?

[etherealtruth]

49. They have been trying to smear the character of an innocent MURDER VICTIM

... since he was stalked and murdered by Zimmerman.

I admittedly, have taken this horrible case because Treyvon Martin (in many ways0 has reminded me of my own 16 year old son.

I don't care what this kid has done in school ... nothing would absolve the murder of a kid walking home clutching iced tea and skittles.

[FarPoint]

52. Because in Zimmy's sick mind

racial profiling is an essential tool for the armed,self appointed neighborhood watchman.

[GodlessBiker]

53. Agreed. It's only relevant if Zimmerman knew Martin's history in school, so as to have ...

a reason to react to him the way he did.

[1GirlieGirl]

65. React to him?

[Zoeisright]

77. Yeah. React to him.

As in hunt him down and kill him in cold blood. Is that so hard for you to understand?

[1GirlieGirl]

79. Yikes.

That was the un-friendliest thing anyone's said to me on DU so far. And for absolutely no reason.

Peace to you.

[Number_9]

70. Not necessarily...

If those records show a history of violence (getting into or starting fights), weapon possession or association with gangs then a defense attorney will use that to help his client. It would lend credence to Zimmerman's version where he approached and talked and Martin initiated the violence.

Now, I'm not saying that those things are in Martin's record but any decent lawyer would at least look.

The opposite is also true. If he has a squeaky clean record with no drugs, violence or gangs then the prosecution will use it to show what a fine upstanding young man he was and how he had no history of instigating violence as Zimmerman suggests.

Either way it is totally logical for the defense to request it.

[GodlessBiker]

82. I disagree, at least in a case of self-defense.

If the defendant knew of prior bad acts of the victim, then it might be reasonable for him to act in a certain way in light of that knowledge, and the jury should hear of those prior bad acts.

If, however, defendant did not know of the victim's prior bad acts, then all that matters, in a case of self-defense, is how the victim acted toward defendant at the scene and whether defendant's actions were reasonable in light of what happened at the scene.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. any defense attorney would do this

and if you think they don't matter, you're delusional.

sP

[CatWoman]

24. as one of the delusional, could you please clue me in?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. an attorney will attempt to set a pattern of behaviour

and if the school records bear out that the boy was a troublesome... not just skipping class but getting into fights or other confrontations ESPECIALLY with authority in the school... then it certainly could be of use to the defense of Zimmerman.

do you honestly not see that? have you never seen what goes on in trials?

sP

[Solomon]

30. totally inadmisible. try something else

(Shakes head at the bullshit people are willing to entertain when a black person is involved.)

[SickOfTheOnePct]

32. Past behavior is not always inadmissible

Not sure where you get the idea that it is.

[jberryhill]

34. Maybe maybe not

Where you are attempting to convict someone on "pattern" evidence, a lot of it may be inadmissible as prejudicial to the defendant.

However, Trayvon Martin is not on trial here. The problem is that the defense being asserted makes it seem that way.

This kind of situation is why we had to make rape defenses a special case, and to categorically rule out various species of "propensity" or "character" avenues. Even the rape shield laws don't solve all problems, but this is a murder trial. It's a much different balance when you talk about limiting the types of defenses a murder defendant may assert.

Clearly, the relevance and admissibility will have to be tested by a judge before this kind of thing is put in front of a jury.

But where you don't want to end up is having an appealable issue that ends up requiring a re-trial or even an acquittal.

[CatWoman]

37. Solomon

On Thursday, Zimmerman's lawyers issued several subpoenas, asking for disciplinary records, attendance records and test scores dating back to middle school. Defense lawyer Mark O'Mara indicated in a blog post Friday that he also will likely soon ask for what Trayvon wrote and posted on social-media sites.


Local lawyers say the school records are unlikely to be admissible in court. O'Mara, they said, is simply casting a wide net while also hoping to influence public perception of Trayvon.

"I believe it's O'Mara doing what any good defense attorney does, and that's called fishing," said Bill Sheaffer, WFTV-Channel 9 legal analyst. "You throw a thousand stones in the sea and hope that one hits a fish."

Martin family attorney Ben Crump described the defense team's actions as a "witch hunt to try to assault [Trayvon's] character."

"None of those things that are being subpoenaed is relevant to why Zimmerman profiled and pursued Trayvon and shot him in the heart," Crump told the Orlando Sentinel.

O'Mara may not get his hands on the school records, said Orlando attorney Richard Hornsby, because defense subpoenas for records require court approval. He predicted both the state and Martin family would object.

Much of Trayvon's school disciplinary history has already been made public.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-07/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-school-records-20120907_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-mark-o-mara

[FarPoint]

54. Agreed.

School records will not relate to anything regarding a teenager walking home from the store with ice tea and Skittles.

This is an attempt to make a story "fit" for a perfect murder.

[TBF]

59. You think he was breaking into classrooms or something?

Otherwise what kind of pattern are you looking for? Confrontation with "authority"? I think the only "confrontation with authority" we clearly have in this case is dumbshit George ignoring the operator when she told him to chill and wait for actual police to come to the scene. Instead, George decides he needs to gun down a teenager walking down the street because he is wearing a damned hoodie.

This is unreal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

84. i am not looking for a pattern...

his attorney is. just because Zimmerman's attorney is going to do this and is well within the bounds of the law doesn't mean that I think it is going to yield anything damning to the prosecutor's case. nor does it mean that i think it is not a sleazy tactic... but it has been done... and the attorney was within the law to do it.

why you or anyone else here thinks I am defending Zimmerman or want him to go free in this is indicative of the fact that when people are fired up on a topic they will spend more time 'reading into' a post that reading it. all i did was say that the defense will use this information to establish a pattern of behaviour. but you and others decided to make my post about defending Zimmerman and wanting him to walk... it is indeed 'unreal' ...

sP

[TBF]

85. You may be a lawyer but not

everyone on this forum is so if I were you I'd explain that up front.

I still don't see how it logically establishes anything, but in legal terms maybe it does. If you explain how that works, and why in legal terms it is different than simply relying on logic than folks might understand.

Trayvon was an unarmed kid walking down the street. He was accosted by the adult weapon-yielding George. Those are the facts.

[brush]

61. School records

I have no problem with zimmy trying to use Martin's school records against him as long as he also submits his past history as well. Deal? That psychopath will come out on the short end of that with his violent and criminal history. You sure you want to go there, zimmy? Because once you open that Pandora's box your run-ins with the law and past domestic violence against your ex-grilfriend and violence against an innocent woman while you worked security will also be admissible? Talk about showing patterns of behavior, all of that should show that you were/are a looking-for-trouble, wannabe cop. Good luck with that, buddy.

[TeamPooka]

71. even if allowed them Zimmy's past behavior is also admissible....

and he doesn't want those past "crusader moments" to be allowed.

[morningfog]

86. I doubt it will be admissible. Additionally, Zimmerman had NO authority over Trayvon.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

90. it may not be

but it might be... and the point on authority is not that he HAD authority over Travon, but if Travon perceived him as an authority figure challenging his right to be there is the point i am trying to expose.

i would wager, IF there is anything in those school records showing a pattern of aggressive violence, it will be allowed.

sP

[morningfog]

93. I would wager none of it will come in, regardless of what it shows.

Not at all relevant. If the prosecutor is worth a damn, Trayvon's school records will not be admissible.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

95. ok...it's a bet ... n/t

[1GirlieGirl]

66. Just a little over the top, you are

Take it easy with the snippy little "delusional" comments. So not necessary.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

83. this is probably not the board for you

if you are more concerned with etiquette than making an actual point.

sP

[Starry Messenger]

4. wtf.

Truant Officer of Death is his defense now?

[2on2u]

5. Everyone really needs to wear their report cards on their lapels so they don't become

an unnecessary statistic. Nice try Zimmy.

[LiberalFighter]

6. If those records are relevant than the prosecutor

should subpoena Z's school records, employment records, psychiatric records, credit history, etc.

[Ilsa]

8. Let's hope the prosecutor already has them. nt

[jberryhill]

40. There's an intentional lopsidedness built in

What the system tries to do is to balance (a) undue prejudice to the defendant, and (b) a broad field of available defenses.

So, a lot of "propensity" and "character" attacks on a criminal defendant are often deemed prejudicial. The bar is somewhat lower in relation to the victim, because the victim isn't the one on trial.

That's why we have rape shield laws, for example, to at least go some distance away from "trying the victim" in rape cases. There, the concern was that the ordeal of trial is a "double victimization". That consideration is not present in a murder case.

[Egalitariat]

7. It would be malpractice on his attorney's part to not get them

He's pursuing a self-defense claim that Trayvon was the attacker and did so in an aggressive manner. He has to build that case and anything he can do to paint Trayvon as a bad actor will potentially help his case.

The request for the school records is a minimum requirement. There will be more.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Unless There's Incidents Of Violent Behavior

Unless there's evidence of behavior on the part of Trayvon similar to what has been alleged on that night there's nothing in his school records a jury will ever see. I suspect the judged will look at the evidence in camera (private) and make a ruling.

[jberryhill]

41. Relevance will be tested first, yes

But you also have to consider that anything ruled out may be appeal fodder. So, it can be a tough call to make.

[lunatica]

10. Are Zimmerman's schools records also called for?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Neither Of Their School Records Will Come In

Unless there's overwhelming proof of prior and similar bad acts.

[CreekDog]

11. Character assassination begins in...

[malaise]

12. Good now let Trayvon's family get Zimmerman's psychiatric records

school records, employment records, etc.

[RedCappedBandit]

14. *gasp* TARDINESS?!?!

Obviously deserved to be shot. Punk kid!

[markpkessinger]

15. I can't imagine a judge would agree to that . . .

. . . Whatever Trayvon's issues might have been with regard to school discipline, they are totally irrelevant to what happened the night he was murdered.

[obamanut2012]

16. Akin to a rape victim's sexual history

WTF.

No, just no.

[jberryhill]

44. That's what rape shield laws are about

The effeftiveness of rape shield laws can be discussed, and should be extended.

But, remember, we actually make evidentiary rules specific to rape.

This is a murder trial.

What is allowed in is subject to relevance. And much of this is probably not relevant.

Would you object to the prosecution bringing in the school records if they wanted to make some argument based on them?

[kestrel91316]

17. I think the judge is going to laugh hysterically and say NO.

[dems_rightnow]

18. The article says he has sent subpeonas.

Those are signed by a judge. So I think you're wrong.

[treestar]

20. Judges sign any subpoena

It is up to the person subpoenaed to challenge it if they don't want to produce anything. If they produce something, the other side can still challenge the relevance and admissibility of the evidence.

[treestar]

19. None of that is relevant

I hate the way people want to try the person rather than the issue of what happened.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. so you believe a person's history

has no bearing on any given act? interesting...

sP

[treestar]

31. The law does

Read a bit about evidence laws. We do not try people on whether they are generally good or bad but on whether they did the thing they are accused of. Even Charles Manson should not be convicted of any particular thing unless he actually did it.

[jberryhill]

57. Martin is not on trial

Yes, we do rule out a lot of past act evidence of the defendant. But Martin is not the defendant.

That doesn't mean anything comes in, but it's a broader field than evidence one would use against the defendant.

[treestar]

73. I generally forget the rules of character of the victim

Doesn't it open up character of the accused?

So if he wants to do this, Z's bad acts would have to come into play along with his policeman-wannabe zealotry.

[jberryhill]

74. And that's where there is a bargain to be made

They'll have to dance around a bunch of stuff, but if someone crosses the line...

I just hope the judge avoids error. If he doesn't make any close calls, and errs on the side of the defensive with respect to this kind of stuff, there's a lower likelihood of an appealable issue.

A fair trial with the rights of the defendant respected is more important than any verdict.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

89. i don't disagree with you

he had to actually do it... but the defense here isn't that he didn't shoot the boy. the defense is that he was attacked and beaten and did it in self defense. establishing that the victim had a pattern of aggressive violence would certainly be allowed.

you can believe it won't be... but i know quite a good bit about evidentiary rules... do you?

sP

[treestar]

96. Yes.

Why don't you go ahead and cite the Florida Code of Evidence confirming this?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

97. well, relevance is for a judge to decide

but title VII 90.202 (5)(6) would certainly cover admissibility.

sP

[brush]

63. History?

zimmerman's history of violence certainly does.

[1GirlieGirl]

64. What ACT are you referring to?

The ACT of being a black kid walking through a predominantly white neighborhood? The ACT of being stalked by a man who was told by police to stand down? The ACT of being an unarmed teenager shot to death? Which ACT?

[Zoeisright]

78. Not when that person was HUNTED and KILLED.

Christ on a stick.

[morningfog]

87. Maybe if Martin were on trial. But, he isn't

[JesterCS]

21. wtf indeed, NOTHING to do with the case.

[ck4829]

22. This is what defense attorneys do, people should be concerned if there is a jury that will buy it

In the State of Confusion, I mean Florida, it may not be too difficult to find twelve people who could read into Trayvon's school records and come to the conclusion that he needed to be shot if he was, God forbid, tardy.

[JRLeft]

23. Zimmerman will walk.

[Scootaloo]

27. And apparently many DU'ers will cheer

[frylock]

39. why? because martin skipped school and burned tree?

no, i don't think zimmerman is going to walk.

[Iggo]

46. How do you figure?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

28. Any defense attorney that didn't do this

would be guilty of malpractice.

If Zimmerman's claim is that Trayvon came at him, attacked him, then of course they're going to look for documented instances when he had done the same to others.

[WooWooWoo]

29. the lack of legal understanding

of some people here is amazing. I'm not a lawyer and even I can figure out the basis behind the subpoena.

[eqfan592]

45. Same here. (nt)

[Dustin DeWinde]

47. understanding what zimmerman's sleazy atty

Is trying to do and agreeing with it are two different things.
If a defendant in a rape case subpoenaed records showing what kind of clothes the victim wore, everyone would know the tactic but most would find it repulsive.

Same thing here. Zimmerman arty is working on a 'he had it coming' defense. shame on you for endorsing it.

[WooWooWoo]

75. last time I checked I didn't endorse anything

other than comprehension of legal tactics.

If you and I find the tactic repulsive, there's a good chance a jury will as well. Or perhaps there was a pattern of behavior in his records that would impose reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted outside the boundry of self defense.

But all evidence, circumstantial as they might be, can be used to defend oneself in a court of law.

[etherealtruth]

56. It is not a woeful lack of knowledge

... though most of us understand (fully) the legal wrangling behind this ... understand the defense's obligation to provide a vigorous defense ... we can and are capable of simultaneously being disgusted by any effort to sully the name of an innocent victim .... I believe the term is bifurcation.

You are right: the lack of understanding by some people here is amazing

[pokerfan]

33. "Zimmerman would be well advised not to open that door"

This rule allows Zimmerman to introduce any competent and relevant evidence he can find that supports his claim that Martin is a psycho-gangsta, a person who is physically aggressive and likes to start fights. Such evidence, assuming he can find any, would support his claim that Martin turned into a psycho-gangsta who suddenly appeared out of nowhere, confronted him as he was minding his own business walking back to his truck, sucker-punched him in the nose for no apparent reason, and tried to beat him to death with his bare hands.

I am not aware that any such evidence exists and I doubt he will find any. However, assuming for the sake of argument, that he does, that will open the door to permit the prosecution to introduce evidence that Zimmerman acts like a psycho-gangsta. I think Zimmerman would be well advised not to open that door.

The rule also permits the prosecution to introduce evidence that Martin was a peaceful person to rebut Zimmerman’s testimony that Martin was the aggressor.

I believe we are likely to see the prosecution introduce evidence that Martin was a peaceful and non-violent person. That is likely to be the only character evidence we are likely to see.

Zimmerman: What Kind of Character Evidence will be Admissible at Trial?

[Aristus]

35. By the "pattern-of-behavior' logic, couldn't we mention the shooting as a pattern

in Zimmerman's behavior, and thus throw him in prison for the rest of his life?

Logic is a bitch, George...

[DonRedwood]

36. seems fair...as long as we get zimmerman's school papers and records

[2Design]

42. they want to eliminate the part of the story where zimmerman stalked trayvon

they only want to show a distorted side

Travon was standing his ground against a stalker - zimmerman is so guilty of murder and the defense is planning on making money off taxpayers because of defense

[cthulu2016]

43. Wanting the information is not the same as using it.

Any lawyer would want this information because you don't know what the prosecution will say.

For instance, if the prosecution said, to advance their argument, that Trayvon was a good kid who had never been in any kind of trouble it would be relevant whether they were shading the truth for effect, and it would be a matter of the prosecutor's credibility.

Any defense attorney who didn't seek this information just to have it would be incompetent.

You want as much information as you can get. Anyone would, in any legal matter.

[jillan]

48. Well if that's what their defense is down to, I think they are admitting they are screwed.

[mzmolly]

50. Does that mean he's releasing his?

POS.

[Hoyt]

72. Damn good point.

[Herlong]

51. WFT

n/t

[graham4anything]

55. zim seems to have murdered in cold blood an unarmed man

zimmerman appears to have premeditatively stalked and then killed an unarmed man

regardless of any other pre-that time events, zimmerman seems to have murdered an unarmed man in cold blood

in no way was zimmerman's life in danger and he seems to have a personal hatred of this kid
(which is zimmerman's problem)

I know how I would rule if I were on the jury.(and I am juror #8), and I vote that shooting an unarmed man in cold blood is murder.
first degree type

the type that the state government puts people to death for.

case closed.

shows how bad this law is in Florida and how bad guns and bullets are.

[NOLALady]

62. What?

He also murdered an unarmed man as well as the unarmed Trayvon Martin?

He seems to have a pattern of murdering the unarmed.

[Hoyt]

60. Hopefully prosecutors will succeed in proving Zimmerman saw unarmed Black kid, grabbed his gun,

summoned his "courage", and murdered unarmed teenager for being Black and, therefore, "suspicious."

It may be common for defense to do this -- just like they attempt to denigrate rape victims -- but it is still sleazy. But, I suppose that's what one should expect for a sleazy POS like Zimmerman.

Sadly, I still believe there will be at least on bigoted, "Stand Your Ground with your Gun" Zimmerman supporter who will hang the jury when the defense mounts its self-defense strategy (whether "stand your ground with your gun" or just traditional "murder in self-defense is OK" defense against unarmed teenager).

[Zoeisright]

76. What the FUCK does that have to do with anything?

That has NOTHING to do with chasing down and shooting an unarmed teenager. I hope Zimmerman fries.

[orpupilofnature57]

80. Why, to tell us how he was stalked or

how he bled ? HOW MANY TIMES DID ZIMMERMAN USURP POLICE AUTHORITY BEFORE THIS TRAGEDY?

[appleannie1]

81. Does that mean that today being late for school is a reason to kill a kid?

[2ndAmForComputers]

92. Depends...

...on albedo.

[Trunk Monkey]

88. I would have thought this would be obvious on a Progessive website

Like it or not, George Zimmerman is entitled to a fair trial and the best possible defense under the law. If access to Martin’s school record will help him achieve that then let his defense team have them.

[LynneSin]

91. What does school records have to do with Martin's rights to walk thru a neighborhood....

one where his father was staying.