General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo Fucking Sick of Religious Nuts
killing people when they are offended. THis doesn't happen in the USA and Europe like it does in the Middle East. These people really need to get a fucking life. I really don't care about political correctness on this.
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)I was polite but just barely in my refusal. I had a hard time being polite this morning. Tired of religious nuts.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Shocking....shocking I tell you!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and read what you have written, with a more calmed eye.
corkhead
(6,119 posts)rocktivity
(44,555 posts)Which it doesn't.
The danger of religious fanaticism isn't the religion -- it's the fanaticism.
rocktivity
corkhead
(6,119 posts)I don't think it is right to single out a region as being worse, we all have our religiously insane.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)That they simply stand and hold signs and speak, rather than murdering, is testament that in large parts of the world the rule of law has overtaken the obligation to murder one's religious opponents. This is not the case in parts of the middle east and asia. Islam bears a particular onus in this, and as such should be particularly blamed.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)...to you and corkhead, on both of your posts.
Plenty of wacky, in all parts of the world, involved in most (if not all) belief systems...to do some serious crazy shit.
I am SO over the wacky and in-my-face-cramming-it-down-my-throat-holy-and-pious religious crap.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Funny, when you take facts out of the mix you can pretty much justify any belief and any behavior.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)alarimer
(16,245 posts)And it just encourages people to only engage with other people who think exactly like them. Think of the restrictions at Liberty University, for example, or religious homeschoolers. Their beliefs fail utterly when compared to reality, so they think the solution is to wall themselves off from any possible contradictory information.
Violence may be greater among some religious sects than others, but it's only a matter of degree. "Pro-life Christians" here incite violence every single day and sometimes it pays off, as in the murder of abortion doctors.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)allow it to persist without criticism or condemnation.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)niyad
(112,435 posts)get a clue, here. the fanatics of the reichwing in this country are no different thatn religious fanatics anywhere.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)niyad
(112,435 posts)CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)in Wisconsin.
No culture has a monopoly on violent idiots.
jpbollma
(552 posts)or some isolated events? Give me a break people. And please include where I said "like in the middle east". We are not on their level. Try going to the middle east and hold an anti Mohammed sign and let me know how that works out for you. In my original post and here I am not attacking any religion I am commenting on a region and a culture. Sorry, other people do have faults too.
gcomeau
(5,764 posts)I must have missed where US embassies are being modded every other Wednesday and alternate weekends throughout the Middle East.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)Religious freedom for all believers and nonbelievers is something that should be celebrated or at least acknowledged.
niyad
(112,435 posts)it doesn't count because it happened so long ago? perhaps you ought to take a look at some of the writings of the reichwingnuts in this country, who are STILL talking about executing witches, adulterous women, and lippy teenagers. just to mention a few.
jpbollma
(552 posts)I have no fear of being executed in the USA. Yes, the government denies me rights, but come on now. Such false comparisons. Here it is the "nuts' who write about executing people, in the Middle East outside of Israel it is policy.
Had to edit this post. iPhone typing is awful.
MrDiaz
(731 posts)the OP was obviously letting out steam. But there is also truth to what was said. These things happen ALOT more in the middle east than here and europe or russia for that matter. You can't justify 1 incident that happened over 300 years ago as being the same as what happened yesterday.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)we would be involved everywhere you could find Muslims and defending the faith as marketed by Big Box Church and Big Bidness.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)THis doesn't happen in the USA and Europe like it does in the Middle East.
I think you are a shitstirrer
ladjf
(17,320 posts)niyad
(112,435 posts)deliberately inflamed tensions with that dreadful film? they KNEW what they were doing.
jpbollma
(552 posts)killing people is beyond the pale. I cannot believe your are equivocating the two.
niyad
(112,435 posts)word you are using:
e·quiv·o·cate
? ?[ih-kwiv-uh-keyt] Show IPA
verb (used without object), e·quiv·o·cat·ed, e·quiv·o·cat·ing.
to use ambiguous or unclear expressions, usually to avoid commitment or in order to mislead; prevaricate or hedge: When asked directly for his position on disarmament, the candidate only equivocated.
Relevant Questions
What Does the Word Equiv...
What Is Equivocality?
What Is Equivocal?
What Is An Equivocator?
Origin:
13751425; late Middle English < Medieval Latin aequivocātus, past participle of aequivocāre; see equivocal, -ate1
Related forms
e·quiv·o·cat·ing·ly, adverb
e·quiv·o·ca·tor, noun
non·e·quiv·o·cat·ing, adjective
out·e·quiv·o·cate, verb (used with object), out·e·quiv·o·cat·ed, out·e·quiv·o·cat·ing.
un·e·quiv·o·cat·ing, adjective
Synonyms
evade, stall, dodge.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/equivocate?s=t
so, no, I was not EQUIVOCATING the two, that is not possible.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Nice way to make you feel like you "won" a discussion.
niyad
(112,435 posts)(at least, some of us don't see this as a battle or a contest, and it is interesting to see who does)
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)jpbollma
(552 posts)than the thought behind my post. Fair enough, I should have used better grammar and it does matter. We obviously just strongly disagree.
Response to niyad (Reply #32)
Post removed
treestar
(82,383 posts)What about provoking people that you know are crazy? What's the point of doing that?
jpbollma
(552 posts)They are crazy.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Are they like Unitarians or Reform Jews? This atheist has no problem with those folks, or even with most mainstream christians, Jews or the few Muslims I have met, who have been pretty secular. When you start advocating theocracy you have crossed the line into crazy, dangerous and a threat to your fellow human beings.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)At its core, all religious beliefs are not rooted in reality. Believing something that is not rooted in reality is "crazy", no?
Sure, some religious beliefs are less harmful than others, but less harmful is a relative term.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and buncome. I respect Buddhism greatly because it has no avenging godhead and is a practice rather than a theology.
But yes, blind acceptance of reductionist, primitive religion - which is what all fundamentalisms are - is far more dangerous. When your desire is for a theocracy you have crossed the line of civil society.
RadiationTherapy
(5,818 posts)the others murdered people who had nothing to do with the video because of a set of personal, private beliefs. They are completely wrong and the freedom of expression is completely right.
jpbollma
(552 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)for another committing unprovoked murder.
rug
(82,333 posts)jpbollma
(552 posts)Why are people so averse to criticizing legitimate human rights atrocities in the Middle East? These people did this because of a MOVIE. The US government has nothing to do with that. The lack of freedoms is astounding. Last time I checked Americans don't go running around attacking people over things like this in mass numbers.
rug
(82,333 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)You have a populace in muslim majority countries that have seen the largely Christian west invade two of their nations and kill tens of thousands of their people in the last decade... and in the case of Iraq the excuse for invasion was transparently ridiculous and the leader of the country at the front of the charge was running around using the word "Crusade". It's soldiers have been caught burning Qurans. Its military is saturated in a culture preaching Christian evangelism to convert the people of the nations they've invaded.
And then we have a frustrated and angry populace getting whipped into a frenzy and rioting against one of the symbols of that nation in their midst when some idiot decides to toss a match on the pile of gasoline soaked rags that is the tensions in the area.
If you don't see any connection there I don't know how to deal with you. No they don;t have an excuse for killing innocent embassy workers but that's not the same thing as there being no cause and effect relationship present here that extends considerably beyond "they're those crazy middle eastern muslims".
jpbollma
(552 posts)in the terms of the awful wars we were a part of but this private citizen is not a government agent. IF he was, I could see your point. He is a private citizen. They don't have an understanding that our media and entertainment are not run by the government like they are in most of the Middle East. We have had plenty of conflicts with Europeans, Chinese, Russians, Japanese ect throughout history and they don't all go nuts every time their religious or political leader is criticized.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)I wonder if he had made this movie about Christians or Jews and claimed that they were a "cancer" if people would be jumping up to defend his "opinion".
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)voluntarily buy into. What is so sad is that so many do.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Though I'd say it's more historical happenstance that you see more fundie violence in the Middle East than here.
A few decades and a few societal changes, and it could be very different - America infested with violent fundies and the Middle East chilling out.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)At what point do you draw the line between fundamentalist and not-fundamentalist, when they ALL believe in things that have no basis in reality?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)or Episcopalians, or even the more secular sort Muslims going off like this. I basically agree with Sam Harris that the "moderate" religious tend to enable the lunatics by never criticizing and marginalizing them, but fundamentalism (literalism) such as that of the ultra-orthodox, Xtian Dominionists and Islamists is a craziness all its own.
And I am a long-standing atheist.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)that religious belief is a form of mental illness, just that some is more dangerous than others?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)To me the clear line is obvious - when you seek to make something like "blasphemy"
(which is a victimless crime unless you have proof to the contrary) or other "affronts" to religion a crime, much less a crime punishable by death, you have taken yourself out of civilized society.
mike_c
(36,214 posts)As long as the religiously insane are afforded "respect" for their delusions, religion inspired bigotry and violence will be with us.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)and oh please, you just don't bother your mind about all the violence you have in America. And the absolute religious crazies. Those qualities only belong to 'crazy religious zealot furiners'.
Alduin
(501 posts)Except religious nuttery has killed people in this country. Refer back to the the Salem Witch Trials and bombings at abortion clinics for examples.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)And it used to be the Christians that were the worst (I am a Christian myself, by the way). People who are afraid of a changing world cling to what they believe they know and what seems stable. Why else did we once have "witch trials" in the US? I think we forget that the middle east and the Muslim world in general is far behind us in their own revolutions. We had two hundred years of practice at this and had the benefit of not having a former govt. and a religion so embedded in our way of life. And this is the extreme of the extreme over there.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)"My deity has a bigger dick than your deity!"
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Why do you think a major branch of mathematics we all learn in school is called "Algebra"?
Most of the major stars visible in the night sky have Arabic names.
Why are we still able to read the works of Greek scholars like Aristotle? Because the Muslim world saved those works. Most of our copies are derived from copies found in the Middle East.
For a few centuries, it was the Islamic world that had all the best scholars and the most advanced science. During that time, the Christian world in Europe was burning witches at the stake and living in what we today call the Dark Ages.
Jennicut
(25,415 posts)I wonder what led to the fall of science and progress in the Muslim world? Was it economic, social, because Islam became very strict as a religion? Christians really went through that dark time where there was no enlightenment and I hope people don't forget that.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Yet, if the Rightwing fundies have their way, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing one can expect.
Until we marginalize our own fundies, and get believers to keep their religious beliefs personal and to themselves, we are in danger of this happening right here at home.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)raccoon
(31,091 posts)George Richard Tiller, MD (August 8, 1941 May 31, 2009)[3] was an American physician from Wichita, Kansas. He was the medical director of a clinic in Wichita, Women's Health Care Services, one of only three nationwide which provided abortions after the 21st week of pregnancy (known as late-term abortion).[4]
Pro-life group Operation Rescue kept a daily vigil outside Tiller's clinic for many years: first the national group, then later a branch that moved from California to Kansas specifically to focus on Tiller. On August 19, 1993, outside of the Wichita clinic, Tiller was shot in both arms by Shelley Shannon, who received an 11-year prison sentence for the crime of attempted murder.[5][6][7] On May 31, 2009, Tiller was shot through the eye and killed, by anti-abortion activist Scott Roeder, as Tiller served as an usher during the Sunday morning service at his church in Wichita.[8][9][10] Roeder was convicted of murder on January 29, 2010.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller
jpbollma
(552 posts)comment every time someone strays from the "orthodoxy". I think if you read my other posts you can see I am clearly a Democrat. That doesn't mean I have to fall into lock step on everything. I am a gay/non-religious male. I am recently unemployed due to a lay off. I don;t think I really fit the description of a "troll" from a conservative site. Come on now, that is just weak.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)1 person killing 1 other vs. murderous mob killing several.
niyad
(112,435 posts)please note that this is only a small part of the list of violence against abortion providers in this country (the link below will show some of the rest).
. . . .
United States
Murders
In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[8][9]
March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.
July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility, the Ladies Center, in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003. The clinic in Pensacola had been bombed before and was also bombed subsequently, in 1984 and 2012.
December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death with a high-powered rifle at his home in Amherst, New York.[10] His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas.[11]
Attempted murder, assault, and kidnapping
According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[12] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[8][13][14]
August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[15]
January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
. . . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
Initech
(99,915 posts)I shit you not. Go back to bed America - your government is in control.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)though religion is probably not the only reason here - in the middle east, religion and politics are mixed up. The hijackers for instance weren't only about religion but their religion is their politics too. For Christians that has not been so in the US, but where it was, look at Northern Ireland, it did cause killings.
The film is just an excuse.
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Sorry, but I'm not singling out Islam when there is enough hate and intolerance to go around for everyone.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)as unsupervised weapons of mass destruction. Absolute claims to absolute truth are the mark of one thing - totalitarianism - when they are brought into civil society.
LeftinOH
(5,342 posts)jpbollma
(552 posts)You expressed my feeling more clearly than I did in my anger and using a mobile device.
LeftinOH
(5,342 posts)niyad
(112,435 posts)jpbollma
(552 posts)I just do not understand..
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)that it is about religious beliefs that have no basis in reality. In the West, while those religious beliefs have not gone away, we have put in place protections, secular protections (laws) that keep those that still hold these beliefs that have no basis in reality, from imposing those beliefs on everyone.
In a nutshell, we, as humans, are still evolving. Evolving away from superstitions and unfounded religious beliefs that have no basis in reality. Some are just a bit more evolved than others.
RKP5637
(67,032 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)They've been persecuting and killing us since forever.
mzmolly
(50,957 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)Hitler
Crusades
Roman Catholic Church through the ages alone
far larger number of lives lost
none of it good, but looks like you got your good ol caucasian holier than thou(Arabs) stance up
reactionary post would like to unrec
jpbollma
(552 posts)first of all I was commenting on modern times. We can go back in a time warp and find awful things everyone has done. This is obvious. Second, you assume I am white because of my comment. So basically you are a racist. good for you.
Seeking Serenity
(2,838 posts)for not worshipping the Roman panoply of deities. Like it was almost yesterday. I'm still smarting over that one.
lame54
(35,141 posts)luvspeas
(1,883 posts)Which countries are you referring to? Which religions in these countries are you referring to? Who exactly are "these people"? No offense, but your comment has a certain vagueness to it that does not show much intelligence.
That said, A lot of this violence has less to do with religion and more to do with anger and frustration over a lack of basic human rights, poor nutrition and resources, lack of education, and a long history of U.S. and corporate (which usually translates into U.S. to most people) interference that makes desperate people extremely gullible and reactionary.
I hope you will try to consider things a bit more broadly.
Va Lefty
(6,252 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)be they Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.