Sanity Check: Student-to-teacher ratios and class sizes

[TahitiNut]

As we regard the Chicago strike and regard the state of public education in this nation today, the most prominent issue continues to be student-to-teacher ratios and class sizes.

One of the repeated "issues" parroted by newsreaders in the media regarding the "hardship" on parents in the Chicago school district is the difficulty supervising the students who're not attending school. For many, it seems that "day care" is their major concern.

As a former teacher, I'd actually regard the standards imposed on day care providers (and the pay for baby-sitters) as a benchmark for progress in public education. While I don't speak for either teachers OR parents, it's worthwhile, I believe, to think about the laws across this nation that day care providers must meet.

The largest group size allowed is 16 children. The highest staff-to-child ratio allowed is 8:1.

When our public school administrators shrug at class sizes of over 40 children and student-to-teacher ratios of 25:1 ... it seems clear to me where the utter insanity lies.

[HiPointDem]

1. but, don't you know, bill gates did *research* and he found out that CLASS SIZE DOESN'T MATTER!

That's why he sends his own kids to classes with 30, 40, 50 students!!

Oh, wait, he sends his kids to Lakeside Prep, average class size = 16.

http://www.lakesideschool.org/podium/default.aspx?t=120812

[ejpoeta]

2. wow i've never thought about it that way.

Plus parents who want their kids to have a good education should be thinking about this. The bigger the class size, the less time their kid gets. Then they blame the teacher and the school for their kid not doing well when they are probably complaining about a strike right now. Wow.... that comparison to daycare and class size is startling. And the daycare doesn't even have to teach them anything.

[TahitiNut]

9. Exactly. And the size and ratios I cited are for school-aged children (4-6 yo).

For me, it sets a "sanity check" point that gives some sense of how freaking insane the teacher-bashers are today. Most interesting is how these standards are set into laws that deny a day care center a license to even operate unless the standards are met. No fuzzy guidelines there at all -- and NOT subject to collective bargaining.

[mopinko]

3. i see your point, but that is apples to oranges.

[TahitiNut]

10. Nonsense.

Why even make such a vacuous, sophomoric remark? Sheer sophistry.

[mopinko]

13. you really think 2 year olds and 10 year olds need the same ratio?

in a perfect world, maybe. but as a mom of 5 kids, i can tell you it ain't so.

[TahitiNut]

14. And just WHERE did you find THAT strawman??

The ratios I cited are for school-age children (4-6 yo) in day care. Nowhere do I even suggest, for example, that college classrooms need the same ratios as public grade schools. It seems I have more respect for the intelligence of my audience than 'some' do.

[mopinko]

18. you didn't say that in your op.

that might have deflected my apples/oranges comment. i still think your argument is overly broad.
but the reason that this is legislated as it is is that there is no dedicated level of supervision in most day care centers. nobody around day to day to make that decision, and to make sure it is kept. the populations are also far more fluid.
so, you are still comparing apples and oranges.

don't get me wrong, especially in areas of high poverty, i think there should be 10-15 kids per class in k-3. should be the same teacher for those years, too. more, closer involvement with a caring adult is a part of the picture that admin fears like a silver bullet. till we all accept that, nothing will change.

[d_r]

4. Project star

documented that low class sizes improved outcomes

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.princeton.edu%2Ffutureofchildren%2Fpublications%2Fdocs%2F05_02_08.pdf&ei=ot1RUMGKD4uY9QTF5IHoDg&usg=AFQjCNFN7imV8qWYfDOs-hGntW1jnS1XmQ&sig2=GFVyLE2I9g_Hw2N_DlolSA

[TrogL]

5. I used to teach

I generally found that one kid in ten was a complete sociopath dedicated to destroying classroom discipline. When you met the parents you discovered why. One kid like this in a classroom was manageable. You kept near him and nipped any trouble in the bud. Two was still relatively manageable; you'd sit them away from each other but close enough so that you could situate yourself between them and maintain order. Three is nearly impossible. Four, give up. At the opposite spectrum, you usually have one exceptionally bright kid per 10 and so on. They can often be enlisted to help. The cohort I went through with had five sociopaths, five brights, lots more near-sociopaths and near-brights and nobody in the middle in a class of about 25. The principal actually taught the class for one day and showed how he was going to have to violate board policy and NOT curve the marks because the results would be statistically impossible. As we passed through the various grades we watched teachers age visibly over the term. One even committed suicide.

In a class of 16 you'll likely have one sociopath, maybe two. Get into the 20's you're pretty much guaranteed two. Get into the high 20's and you're approaching three.

Class size matters.

[Fumesucker]

6. You should make that an OP..

[gollygee]

11. I don't like the use of the term sociopath here, but you certainly have a percentage of kids

who have ADHD or something that makes them have trouble controlling themselves. And when I've volunteered in my kids' classes, you can certainly see that the teacher can handle one or two, but I can imagine at some point trying to teach a class with a number of kids like that would be more like herding cats than anything else, and there wouldn't be a lot of teaching going on. It would just be damage control.

Teachers work incredibly hard and are ridiculously underappreciated. They should be paid so much better for the work they do. And I think it's crazy that they are expected to buy school supplies for their classes if the parents won't or are unable to buy them.

It drives me crazy when I see people suggesting teachers don't work that hard or are well payed.

[TrogL]

20. I'm talking about the sociopathic bullies punching kids when your back is turned

The ADHD kids are a breeze compared to them.

I lasted three years then had my nervous breakdown and got into another line of work.

[porphyrian]

7. . n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

8. K&R This fantasy is de rigueur in the corporate school advocates circles. n/t

[DonRedwood]

12. I say DO THE MATH!!! 30 kids means 2 minutes per kid per hour. That is 14 mins a day

per kid.

[dkf]

15. Kids in day care haven't learned discipline yet and that is what necessitates small class sizes.

The fact that we need that for older kids is a problem that points to lack of control of kids by parents and teachers.

This is why class size internationally can be larger...because their society teaches kids to listen and be respectful of authority. If that is not part of your culture you will have problems.

[TahitiNut]

16. Is there a sale on broad brushes that I haven't heard about??

[dkf]

17. So why do Asian countries do well with class sizes over 30?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/class-size-around-the-world/

[Auntie Bush]

19. Asian parents respect their teachers and train their kids to do so too.

The kids are taught at home to respect the teachers, but our society/parents don't. How can we expect the kids to respect their teacher if the parents don't? Children don't behave or listen to people they don't respect.