If we are eliminating monuments to white supremacy, what should be done about "The Six Grandfathers"

[sarisataka]

More commonly known as Mount Rushmore?

-The treaty of Ft Laramie in 1868 promised to the various tribe in the area the Black Hills in perpetuity. By 1874 settlers began to take over the region as the gold rush began. (Due to the discovery of gold by trespassing prospectors)

-A 1980 SCOTUS ruling has affirmed that the Black Hills was taken illegally.

-The sculptor, Gutzon Borglum was a member of the KKK. He was originally hired to sculpt Stone Mountain, Georgia but left that project due to disagreements with the Klan and United Daughters of the Confederacy

Consider the men carved there:

-George Washington- slave owner

-Thomas Jefferson- slave owner

-Abraham Lincoln- signed the order for the largest mass execution in US history, 39 Dakota men were ordered to be hung following the 1862 Dakota War, though none of them were actually given a trial. Instead they were found guilty by a military commission.

-Theodore Roosevelt- perhaps the most progressive, wrote "the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have". However he also of African Americans, "as a race and in the mass they are altogether inferior to whites”.

His views of Native Americans were less progressive- In his book The Winning of the West he wrote: "The most ultimately righteous of all wars is a war with savages, though it is apt to be also the most terrible and inhuman". Also "it is of incalculable importance that America, Australia, and Siberia should pass out of the hands of their red, black, and yellow aboriginal owners, and become the heritage of the dominant world races"


It seems Mount Rushmore is the grandest, and perhaps most egregious, monument to white supremacy.

[Drahthaardogs]

1. Theodore Roosevelt hated Italians and called the lynching

Of Sicilian immigrants (credited as the largest mass lynching in America) a good start!

Italian immigrants were not considered white.

[Blue_true]

11. If I remember correctly from one or two of your past posts, your

heritage is Italian. My heritage is Black, American Indian, White, I don't know and don't care about the proportions because I soundly identify as African American.

My position on confederate figures that didn't repent, is that all statues of them should be taken down from public land, streets, schools, parks, other structures named after them should be renamed after more honorable Americans. Confederate figures that repented should have references added to remembrances of them that note their crime of treason and fighting to keep Black people in bondage.

That gets me to people like Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR. Most of them accomplished monumental good for the country. Yet each had very dark elements about them, Jackson and FDR advocated the brutal removal or elimination of a group of Americans, yet both are romanticized for accomplishments. What should happen for each man is that their dark actions and the consequences of such should share equal billing with their noteworthy accomplishments.

My position is that history happened and we can't go back in time and change it to a more humane outcome. We can erase part of that history because the men that made it were murderous, racist, or lecherous, or we can fully and accurately recount their full history.

[Drahthaardogs]

17. I agree with you.

The Confederacy was an attempt to usurp the United States. How the hell they manage to conflate that to "heritage" is beyond me.

My point about Roosevelt was, he was a dick too in some ways. I would never advocate blowing his effigy off Mount Rushmore. It was just the way things were.

Now, slavery is and was a practice throughout the world. Romans had slaves. He'll, native American tribes practiced forms of slavery among competing tribes. It's part of civilization. However, colonial Britain took that shit to a whole new level. Kind of makes you wonder if the world would not have been better off if the Romans had put every Saxon to the sword. The English style of slavery is kind of unprecedented.

I kind 9f laugh when people talk about the brutality of the Spaniards, hell. Moctezuma sacrificed 80,000 people during his coronation ceremony. In fact, the Aztec penchant for human sacrifice is one reason the Spaniards supposedly used such brutality. Is it true? I don't know - I wasn't there.

It's the southern culture of romanticizing the southern slave owner, the failure to face the past, and reject ideals that were accepted at the time that I find repugnant.

I think pulling down statues of Jefferson and Washington and even Columbus kind of dumb. There is a difference in my mind. Your mileage may vary.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. Deed it back in its entirety. It's a scar.

Perhaps there's some room to keep a U.S. National Park somewhere in the area as a museum of Mt. Rushmore, but I would be just fine with the actual mountain going back to the tribes.

[sarisataka]

8. IIRC SCOTUS ruled a payment for the illegal taking of the land

of around $200 million should be made, which the tribes rejected.

Using rounded numbers, the value of the gold which has been removed from the area is about $30-50 billion dollars if not greater.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

3. The subject matter aside . . .

. . . mega sculpture of that nature -- desecrating nature -- is an abomination in itself. Dynamite it off?

[Ex Lurker]

5. If Democrats become a progressive version of the Taliban

Prepare to be a perpetual fringe party

[SharonClark]

10. K&R

[BannonsLiver]

12. +1

[Polybius]

13. +1 million

I want no part of this.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

18. So we should assess the partisan political ramifications of such actions . . .

. . . in order to ascertain whether they are morally justified?

Um, okay.

It's curious who some people here equate to "the Taliban."

[BannonsLiver]

19. Grade A sanctimony

Thanks for that.

[Dr. Strange]

9. Aw man, I was hoping to see the Crazy Horse Memmorial finished.

[napi21]

4. I'm sur if we really look we'll find some bad stuff in all their pasts. I feel the ones that should

come down are those giving tribute to civil war leaders. Those leaders are being honored for their participation in their Civil War & that's all. The Frs are being honored for their efforts in establishing our Country.

[zipplewrath]

6. I have little doubt that some day it will be gone.

Try to think of the oldest monuments in the world. There are very few that last a millenia or more. Wars, environmental disasters, and collapsing cultures often lead to their distruction. At the very least, much like many civilizations in South America, they could be abandoned and left for nature over taking them.

[sarisataka]

7. Someday it will be gone through erosion

but barring human action it will outlast us

[GaYellowDawg]

15. Probably not.

Cracks in the granite have to be repaired yearly.

[Polybius]

14. I was wondering when I'd see the first post on DU calling Lincoln a racist and for his removal

I guess I've found it.

[sarisataka]

16. I have seen previous posts so I cannot claim to be the first to question Lincoln

This is less a call for removal than food for thought. Once we start removing monuments to this person because of one failing in their life and that person because of another, where does it stop?

Most, if not all, historical figures have some deep flaws. Almost like they were humans.