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cali

(114,904 posts)
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 10:56 AM Sep 2012

Pastors pledge to defy IRS, preach politics from pulpit ahead of election

Forgive me for posting Fux, but they seem to be the only ones up with this story except for The Christian Post. I think it's important.

More than 1,000 pastors are planning to challenge the IRS next month by deliberately preaching politics ahead of the presidential election despite a federal ban on endorsements from the pulpit.

The defiant move, they hope, will prompt the IRS to enforce a 1954 tax code amendment that prohibits tax-exempt organizations, such as churches, from making political endorsements. Alliance Defending Freedom, which is holding the October summit, said it wants the IRS to press the matter so it can be decided in court. The group believes the law violates the First Amendment by “muzzling” preachers.


“The purpose is to make sure that the pastor -- and not the IRS -- decides what is said from the pulpit,” Erik Stanley, senior legal counsel for the group, told FoxNews.com. “It is a head-on constitutional challenge.”

Stanley said pastors attending the Oct. 7 “Pulpit Freedom Sunday” will “preach sermons that will talk about the candidates running for office” and then “make a specific recommendation.” The sermons will be recorded and sent to the IRS.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/19/pastors-pledge-to-defy-irs-preach-politics-from-pulpit-ahead-election/#ixzz271QfDe90

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Pastors pledge to defy IRS, preach politics from pulpit ahead of election (Original Post) cali Sep 2012 OP
If they do that, tax 'em or shut 'em down. NV Whino Sep 2012 #1
+1.000.000 spanone Sep 2012 #47
Preferably the Latter M_M Sep 2012 #50
Fair enough SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #51
Making them pay would be a better option. laundry_queen Sep 2012 #55
If they violate the tax laws SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #57
So will they be frisking attendees for recording devices at the door that day? auburngrad82 Sep 2012 #2
huh? they plan to tape their sermons themselves and send cali Sep 2012 #4
Sorry, missed that part auburngrad82 Sep 2012 #30
What a great source of untapped revenue! smirkymonkey Sep 2012 #53
Pastors will lose PowerToThePeople Sep 2012 #3
They Would Win When it Gets to the Supreme Court AndyTiedye Sep 2012 #33
Nothing in the constitution about not taxing churches michael811 Sep 2012 #5
That's it. surrealAmerican Sep 2012 #38
Rmoney has got no time for you.. if you don't pay taxes rsweets Sep 2012 #6
This is not a free-speech issue, it is a tax issue...n/t Blue Meany Sep 2012 #7
no kidding, sherlock. cali Sep 2012 #15
Can we have higher tax rates for people with political bumper stickers? cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #22
No, it's not a free speech issue nebenaube Sep 2012 #37
The problem isn't taxation, it is dual standards. cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #42
b.s. nebenaube Sep 2012 #46
Is this really a request to repeal the Johnson Amendment? Dawson Leery Sep 2012 #8
Oh yes. Guess who wrote the legislation. rug Sep 2012 #44
They need to send a big damn tax bill warrior1 Sep 2012 #9
Plus all the people who donate to that church would not be able to deduct their contribution WCGreen Sep 2012 #19
a true boon for prison ministry dembotoz Sep 2012 #10
As a Christian I for one want any church that defies the IRS to lose its tax exempt status and jwirr Sep 2012 #11
I hope they get their wish and the IRS steps in and revokes every single cbayer Sep 2012 #12
Awesome! This is really great news! The loss of tax-exempt status will ruin most of them. cleanhippie Sep 2012 #13
I can't see the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church allowing this to go foward justiceischeap Sep 2012 #14
I am fairly certain the IRS would not go after them before the election. Bandit Sep 2012 #32
That's why I can't see the Catholic or Mormon churches allowing this to happen justiceischeap Sep 2012 #36
It will never happen. former9thward Sep 2012 #56
MOOCHERS Generic Other Sep 2012 #16
Simple. Revoke their tax exemptions and hifiguy Sep 2012 #17
I understand their point. cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #18
your can preach all the morals you want.. rsweets Sep 2012 #26
Taxing churches is fine. Taxing *some* churches based solely on what is said cthulu2016 Sep 2012 #43
This has got "backfire" written all over it. earthside Sep 2012 #20
It would be priceless to watch each and everyone of them AsahinaKimi Sep 2012 #21
I'd love to see hate-mongering churches lose their tax benefits bhikkhu Sep 2012 #23
Wahoo! Could help be arriving for our deficit? The end of religious freebies. Tax 'em. cr8tvlde Sep 2012 #24
the funny thing is they're telling everyone to vote for a pro-choice candidate. cbdo2007 Sep 2012 #25
Nothing will happen to them bevb Sep 2012 #27
TAX THEM. The Catholics and the Mormons have BILLIONS in holding DonRedwood Sep 2012 #28
It will be so awesome when they lose their tax exempt status Matariki Sep 2012 #29
Considering that Christianity is an anti-democratic proposition, it's amazing churches get stopbush Sep 2012 #31
how silly can it get? cali Sep 2012 #35
Tax the charlatans. sarcasmo Sep 2012 #34
Good googly moogly religious nuts can be pretty freaking stupid sometimes. Egnever Sep 2012 #39
I want to smoke pot for my religion mick063 Sep 2012 #40
I hope they get a large tax bill from the IRS, HooptieWagon Sep 2012 #41
The IRS will not rise to the bait. Nothing will happen. GreenStormCloud Sep 2012 #45
It shouldn't be SickOfTheOnePct Sep 2012 #49
The purpose of the IRS is to collect revenue, not get in a high-profile political fight. GreenStormCloud Sep 2012 #54
Maybe they should let Jesus decide instead and 'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' renie408 Sep 2012 #48
When Rove issued his martching orders I had a feeling Tippy Sep 2012 #52
Large metro black churches always croosed the line Mimosa Sep 2012 #58
I think FOX pulled the link (maybe they realized how stupid it was to give their strategy away) MessiahRp Sep 2012 #59
You can let them know what you think ohheckyeah Sep 2012 #60

NV Whino

(20,886 posts)
1. If they do that, tax 'em or shut 'em down.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 10:58 AM
Sep 2012

Last edited Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Go ahead and test it, preacher boys.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
51. Fair enough
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:28 PM
Sep 2012

So don't participate. But you don't find it unreasonable to want something "shut down" just because you don't like it?

BTW, indiscriminately shutting down churches is not an option...pesky First Amendement and all...

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
55. Making them pay would be a better option.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 09:10 PM
Sep 2012

Some of those churches are rolling in dough. Think of all the revenue for social programs

auburngrad82

(5,029 posts)
2. So will they be frisking attendees for recording devices at the door that day?
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:02 AM
Sep 2012

Because if you can record it and hand it over to the IRS, that seems like the only way it can be proved.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
53. What a great source of untapped revenue!
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:58 PM
Sep 2012

Could this be part of the solution to closing the budget gap? At the very least we could use the tax dollars from political churches toward providing social programs for the poor.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
3. Pastors will lose
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:03 AM
Sep 2012

No one is taking away their "freedom of speech", but they will lose the tax exempt status they are able to have by being a NON-PARTISAN religious organization.

michael811

(67 posts)
5. Nothing in the constitution about not taxing churches
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:06 AM
Sep 2012

The first amendment guarantees freedom of religion it doesn't guarantee churches the right to tax exempt status. If anything this will remove the tax exempt status for all churches which is fine by me

surrealAmerican

(11,340 posts)
38. That's it.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 01:50 PM
Sep 2012

They have no constitutional right to a tax break. They can say whatever they like, but they will have to pay taxes just like anybody else.

rsweets

(307 posts)
6. Rmoney has got no time for you.. if you don't pay taxes
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:08 AM
Sep 2012

If you want to play the game...
pay the entry fee

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
22. Can we have higher tax rates for people with political bumper stickers?
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Sep 2012

Of course it is a free speech issue.

If your tax status is determined by what you say that is about speech, not merely a tax issue.

One can argue a compelling state interest in restricting that speech that outweighs what is, on its face, a speech restriction, but one cannot simply say it isn't about speech.


 

nebenaube

(3,496 posts)
37. No, it's not a free speech issue
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 01:42 PM
Sep 2012

Because they voluntarily surrendered their right to be political activists in exchange for tax-free status. I say pull their status and hit them for the maximum penalty.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
42. The problem isn't taxation, it is dual standards.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:08 PM
Sep 2012

I have no objection to churches being taxed, but it cannot be based on what they say in sermons.

There was a case last year about a special State tax break for donations to non-profits that serve the inner city. In establishing the tax break, the legislature specifically excluded Planned Parenthood for advocating abortion.

The court observed that exclusion from a otherwise available/eligible tax benefit based on Panned Parenthoods abortion advocacy is constitutionally indistinguishable from levying a fine on Planned Parenthood for advocating abortion, and obviously the state cannot fine anyone for advocating abortion.

I agreed with that decision, as did most everyone else here.

So we have the question of whether any penalty can be applied to a church for the content of the church's teachings—specifically, whether the church has a position on who to vote for. I would say that's an easy no. If free exercise of religion does not encompass the words spoken in sermons then what on Earth does it encompass?

As an atheist this all troubles me, of course, but the combination of free exercise and no establishment is a unique constitutional pincer. Violations of one are violations of the other... the government can neither reward nor punish. The government cannot punish free speech but it can reward it. When a library buys Tom Sawyer versus Catch-22 there is no issue of unconstitutional establishment of Tom Sawyer. I can publish a book advising sneezing on everyone during cold season, but the government is free to issue guidelines that we should not do so without an improper establishment of hygiene.

And public schools can teach in contradiction to religion. We teach that the Earth is more than 4,000 years old, which contradicts some religious views. But the geological age of the earth is not a religious tenet. There is no establishment of science because science is not a religion.

So the religious distinction does matter. Sometimes I wish that "conscience" would be substituted for religion, but if it were then public schools couldn't teach that hurting people is bad, since doing so would be an establishment of a philosophy that hurting people is bad.

Religion is, however it pains me, a special constitutional case and the threshold for disparate treatment of religions is so incredibly high that the state interest in disparate tax status is nowhere near sufficiently compelling.

IMO.

WCGreen

(45,558 posts)
19. Plus all the people who donate to that church would not be able to deduct their contribution
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:22 AM
Sep 2012

to the church on their Schedule A...

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
11. As a Christian I for one want any church that defies the IRS to lose its tax exempt status and
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:10 AM
Sep 2012

be taxed for its entire income at the highest rate possible.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
13. Awesome! This is really great news! The loss of tax-exempt status will ruin most of them.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:13 AM
Sep 2012

Without the tax-free money taken in, AND the government grants, most of these churches would never survive.


justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
14. I can't see the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church allowing this to go foward
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
Sep 2012

On the other hand, if they do this and the IRS goes after them, that's an "Obama is attacking religion" campaign ad right there.

Bandit

(21,475 posts)
32. I am fairly certain the IRS would not go after them before the election.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 12:17 PM
Sep 2012

However I would bet early next year there will be an investigation and possible sanctions and possibly even a revocation of their tax exempt status..

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
36. That's why I can't see the Catholic or Mormon churches allowing this to happen
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 01:30 PM
Sep 2012

They don't want to take a chance at losing their tax exempt status.

former9thward

(31,802 posts)
56. It will never happen.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 09:17 PM
Sep 2012

Both sides use churches to promote their candidates and politics. Congress would never allow the IRS to have a serious investigation.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
17. Simple. Revoke their tax exemptions and
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
Sep 2012
tax the living bejeezus out of these assholes. Their tax-exempt status is contingent on behaving within the rules. If they break the law, tax them out of existence. There is no First Amendment right whatsoever to being tax-exempt.

ETA: "Tax the churches. Tax the businesses owned by the churches." - Frank Zappa

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
18. I understand their point.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
Sep 2012

Favoring apolitical religions poses an establishment problem, in my mind.

If I started a religion it would certainly involve counseling people to not vote for Romney. In my sense of things that is basic moral instruction.

So the government then says I am not entitled to the same status as other religions because I think it is important to preach that people should be ethical and good in the voting booth. That seems a pretty clear shaping of the tenets of my religion.

And that isn't a case of a religion getting into some exotic faux-religious area like selling time-shares... it is quintessential moral instruction.

It makes no sense, to me, to say, "You can tell people that abortion is the murder of a million people a year but it would be over the line to tell them to not vote for candidates who favor the murder of a million people a year."

The separation of church and state is a limitation on government, not religion. Religions are, or should be, free to say whatever the heck they want.

And if there is any government reward for a religion not holding certain moral views (i.e. "don't vote for Romney&quot then it is establishment of religious doctrine and those benefits are, to my way of thinking, unconstitutional in all cases.

(Both carrots and sticks are establishment.)

rsweets

(307 posts)
26. your can preach all the morals you want..
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:41 AM
Sep 2012

once you start naming names ... you gotta pay taxes.

i don't remember "life,liberty and no taxes for churches"
anywhere in the bill of rights.
correct me if i'm wrong.


cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
43. Taxing churches is fine. Taxing *some* churches based solely on what is said
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:10 PM
Sep 2012

in sermons is not fine.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
20. This has got "backfire" written all over it.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:23 AM
Sep 2012

This will only bring more scrutiny upon any church that participates ... and that may mean expensive legal wrangling with the IRS.

Is this what church members want their offerings to be spent on?

But if one of their goals is to promote Rmoney and the Repuglicans, well, that will backfire, too.
Most Americans find the intrusion of church into politics to be distasteful.

So, I hope they go ahead and do this.

AsahinaKimi

(20,776 posts)
21. It would be priceless to watch each and everyone of them
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:23 AM
Sep 2012

lose their tax exemption status and suddenly have to pay back taxes of what they have owed for so many years. The howling that would come from them would be nearly delicious. Go ahead,... thumb your nose at the IRS..and get smacked with having to pay back taxes.

bhikkhu

(10,708 posts)
23. I'd love to see hate-mongering churches lose their tax benefits
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:29 AM
Sep 2012

Most of them don't, of course, but the one's that do should be open and honest about it, and pay taxes like the rest of us.

cr8tvlde

(1,185 posts)
24. Wahoo! Could help be arriving for our deficit? The end of religious freebies. Tax 'em.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:30 AM
Sep 2012

Average people have no clue what these grifters take in ... and spend. Would love to take the lid off and expose what the Pharisees/Theocrats have been up to for the couple of millenia.

If you think the Democratic Convention was great...and it was...Fired Up and Ready To Go...multiply that many times and you'll understand the Right Wing Pharisees...I refuse to call them Fundamentalists. Why? Because They Are Not. People who live their lives by the Sermon on the Mount are Fundamentalists.

There are roughly a quarter of a billion ... 240,000 ... Christian Churches in the US and let's say just one quarter, 60,000, fall into the nutwing/Pharisee category. They get the somewhat equivalent hype of our Democratic Convention 52 weeks of the year. Unleash this mostly Red State and Very Red State crew on the common folk...get those pensioners to send in half their 47% Social Security checks to not only Ensure Their Heavenly Mansion, but first Silence The Ungodly Liberals, lord, literally, have mercy.

Separation of Church and State will have officially turned into a Theocracy.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
25. the funny thing is they're telling everyone to vote for a pro-choice candidate.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:32 AM
Sep 2012

Romney is pro-choice and only changed to get elected. He'll never push through any anti-abortion laws, nor would he put in a sc justice that is not pro-choice. Joke is on them!!

bevb

(10 posts)
27. Nothing will happen to them
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:43 AM
Sep 2012

Church goers will be pissed and eventually the IRS ruling will change in their favor. There are a lot of religious Christians in this country and their numbers give them power.

DonRedwood

(4,359 posts)
28. TAX THEM. The Catholics and the Mormons have BILLIONS in holding
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:44 AM
Sep 2012

They are supposed to be tax free because churches used to HELP people, give charity, take care...but now they own businesses and city blocks of housing. I say tax them like any business if they are going to join politics.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
29. It will be so awesome when they lose their tax exempt status
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 11:50 AM
Sep 2012

almost worth going to fundie churches with a recording device...

stopbush

(24,378 posts)
31. Considering that Christianity is an anti-democratic proposition, it's amazing churches get
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 12:13 PM
Sep 2012

a tax exemption to begin with.

Let's face it, there are no votes in heaven, and people who are Christians are supposed to bow down in servitude before their lord and master, Jeebus.

You'd think Christianity would be on the sedition watch list.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
35. how silly can it get?
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 12:18 PM
Sep 2012

religion is protected by the Constitution. And Christianity has a myriad of variations- from very liberal to very conservative.

Seditious, my ass.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
39. Good googly moogly religious nuts can be pretty freaking stupid sometimes.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 01:54 PM
Sep 2012

This will or should bite them in the ass in a big way.

 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
40. I want to smoke pot for my religion
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:05 PM
Sep 2012

And if the DEA stops me, I will scream about them oppressing my constitutional rights.

If these pastors pull this off with court backing, they open up all kinds of possibility.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
41. I hope they get a large tax bill from the IRS,
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:22 PM
Sep 2012

And another from local govt for property taxes. And I hope legal fees cost them a bundle.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
45. The IRS will not rise to the bait. Nothing will happen.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 05:00 PM
Sep 2012

This will be a political hot potato that the IRS will not want any part of. They will ignore it an hope it goes away.

SickOfTheOnePct

(7,290 posts)
49. It shouldn't be
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:20 PM
Sep 2012

If the pastors choose to advocate for or against a candidate or a party, they should lose their tax exempt status for that tax year, as the law allows.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
54. The purpose of the IRS is to collect revenue, not get in a high-profile political fight.
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 08:39 PM
Sep 2012

The amount of taxes they would collect from those 1,000 churches would be small and the political cost would be high.

Most Christian pastors avoid political endorsements anyway, because their congregations will have both Republicans and Democrats and Other among them. They tend to view the Cause of Christ to be above politics as Jesus rejected political solutions in His life.

Tippy

(4,610 posts)
52. When Rove issued his martching orders I had a feeling
Thu Sep 20, 2012, 07:35 PM
Sep 2012

This would turn on the Right....you know they did this on a much smaller scale durring the 2000 election...they handed out printed materials those in attendence could take home and pass out to friends and neighbors...they will use the abortion issue as drawing card...Has anyone ever got the IRS to go after the churches? Hell we couldn't even get them to take down their political signs in our town....

Mimosa

(9,131 posts)
58. Large metro black churches always croosed the line
Fri Sep 21, 2012, 06:53 AM
Sep 2012

I've attended Catholic then Episcopalian churches in ATL in the 70s and 80s, heard no politics from pulpits. Sometimes I attended a couple of tent revival 'churches', again no politics. Catholic and Episcopalian ministers spoke about the esoteric life of our spirits.

After I moved to New Orleans in the late 1980s I sometimes attended 'Full Gospel' and Victory Assembly of God evangelical churches and more frequently attended the mainstream small 'Spiritualist' churches. The former were very large, mainly black congregations which did a lot of outreach in the community. Anybody who has spent time in churches with primarily black congregations know nearing elections candidates and elected politicians are as thick as flies swarming potato salad and sweet potato pies at a picnic.

A lot of organising and GOTV activities have always happened in black churches. It wasn't unusual for somebody like Congressman Bill Jefferson or Mayoral wannabe Marc Morial to say a few words from the pulpit the Sunday preceding an election. (I could describe and name many candidates -especially city council reps who campaigned from pulpits). The influential pastors frequently endorsed candidates from their pulpits. I was never comfortable with it, especially since so many of the politicos turned out to be crooks.

Since the 19th century churches had always served as 'community centers' for black people in America. Vernon Johns, predecessor to MLKjr, preached resistance to segregation from his Dexter Ave Baptist Church pulpit in Montgomery AL. MLKjr, brought in to Dexter Ave Baptist to be a calming influence organised boycotts and other social justice activities from his pulpit.

MessiahRp

(5,405 posts)
59. I think FOX pulled the link (maybe they realized how stupid it was to give their strategy away)
Sun Sep 23, 2012, 02:04 AM
Sep 2012

We need a comprehensive list of these churches and we need to turn them into the IRS and demand action NOW.

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