I have never been for the death penalty, but maybe now one exception:..... Kyle Rittenhouse

[Stuart G]

.Perhaps a lifetime in prison would be more cruel for him. But maybe he ought to get what he did to others.And save a lot of money for the rest of us. It sure sounds cruel for me to say that, and I have never stood that way on this issue, but every once in a while we change our opinions on some ideas for a while, and then we change back to the original thoughts latter. I could say more...but that is really enough.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. The death penalty is always wrong, all the time, no matter

who the criminal is or what crime he committed. It's barbaric and shouldn't be allowed or even considered in any civilized country. Period.

Also, Wisconsin abolished the death penalty in 1853 so it wouldn't be a possibility in any case.

[Celerity]

8. agreed, except for 2 exceptions (the Nuremberg ones) crimes against humanity & waging aggressive war

They must be tried and convicted by an international tribunal as well.

[LisaL]

2. Death penalty is not on the table.

He is a minor, thus not eligible for a death penalty.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Also, Wisconsin doesn't have the death penalty for anyone.

It was abolished there in 1853. Whatever else you want to say about Wisconsin, at least they don't have that barbarism.

[BGBD]

48. Feds do

He crossed state lines to commit his crime.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

50. True, but what he did isn't covered by the federal statute

defining crimes for which the death penalty can be imposed. Just crossing a state line isn't enough, even if the feds decide to prosecute him (and I'm betting they'll leave it to the state). You really think Bill Barr's DoJ would prosecute a right-wing murderer?

[BGBD]

53. I'm counting on

a different Attorney General in 5 months to make that call.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

54. The law requires a defendant to be charged within a short time or they can't hold him,

and he has to be tried within 90 days unless both sides agree to a continuance. They won't (and can't) hold him for five months waiting for a new AG. I expect the state of Wisconsin to charge him as an adult with two counts of first-degree murder and one of attempted murder, and to do so within the week.

[BGBD]

55. there is

nothing to stop Wisconsin from charging him and a federal investigation to be launched in January.

He wasn't old enough to legally possess a firearm, and killing someone with an illegal firearm qualifies for the federal death penalty. There are also potential charges on use of interstate facilities to commit a crime, denial of civil liberties, conspiracy, and terrorism.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

57. I really don't think the feds will take the case

since the state of Wisconsin is perfectly capable of prosecuting it. There's no particular reason for the feds to do it; it would just delay his prosecution, and the federal system doesn't usually bother with routine murders. Which, despite the high-profile circumstances, this was. He's a punk kid no different from the asshole who killed Heather Heyer (who was sentenced in a state court to life without parole); the only difference is the possibility of federal jurisdiction. Anyhow, since the legal requirements for a speedy trial would also require the feds to act promptly, they can't wait five months.

[Kaleva]

59. You are mistaken

"killing someone with an illegal firearm qualifies for the federal death penalty."

Your comment above is not accurate.

"If you kill someone as a result of using a firearm or ammunition to commit a federal offense, you can be prosecuted for murder or manslaughter in addition to any other crime committed resulting in death. "

https://www.wklaw.com/federal-firearms-laws

Only certain murders, such as the killing of a federal officer, are considered to be federal crimes.

It is not a federal crime for a minor to posses a rifle.

"B. 18 USC § 922(x)(2). A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun-only ammunition; (NOTE: Certain exceptions apply to A & B, such as where juvenile possesses written permission of a parent.);"

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sc/programs/ceasefire/brochures-and-talking-points/federal-firearms-laws

[BGBD]

73. It isn't that narrow

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

He was part of an organized group that conspired to intimidate people expressing a 1st amendment protected right and his actions resulted in the deaths of those people.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/241

There is a clear argument for federal jurisdiction and a capital offense there alone.

[Kaleva]

76. If there was a conspiracy, why no charges against the fellow conspirators?

Your comment:

"If two or more persons..."

Who are the others? For a person to be charged with conspiracy, there has to be others involved in the crime.

[BGBD]

101. there were many of them

You saw the militia he was with?

Do you think those people spontaneously arrived at that particular spot at the same time, all heavily armed by chance?

Those people conspired to attend the protest and intimidate the protesters. People died because of that.

They should all be charged.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

60. The only basis for federal jurisdiction I can see is a possible violation of firearms laws,

but just using an illegal weapon to commit a murder doesn’t confer federal jurisdiction over the murder itself, nor the death penalty. Interstate travel isn’t enough either; the asshole who killed Heather Heyer came from another state and he was prosecuted in state court.

I expect him to be arraigned in a Wisconsin court next week.

[Kaleva]

75. By federal standards, the gun wasn't illegal.

There is no federal law that prohibits a 17 y/o from possessing a rifle.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

91. I hadn't heard anything about the circumstances relating to how he got the gun.

Just speculating on a possible basis for federal jurisdiction (illegally purchased, modified, stolen?) but there doesn't seem to be one. Just crossing a state line won't do it.

[Kaleva]

94. I just read that the gun was borrowed from a friend who lives in WI.

I have a task to do right now and don't have the time to search back to the articles I've read but I did find that bit interesting.

[Kaleva]

56. Rittenhouse didn't commit a federal crime where the death penalty is punishment.

Ted Bundy crossed state lines to commit his many murders but he was charged and executed by the state of Florida.

Timoth mcVeigh was charged for federal crimes:

"The U.S. Department of Justice brought federal charges against McVeigh for causing the deaths of eight federal officers leading to a possible death penalty for McVeigh; they could not bring charges against McVeigh for the remaining 160 deaths in federal court because those deaths fell under the jurisdiction of the State of Oklahoma."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Arrest_and_trial

[Stuart G]

7. I had forgotten that this killer is a "minor." But he planned to kill and went to kill and used

a weapon to kill, and he killed 2 people. Yes, he is a "minor"...but maybe in this case he deserves what he gave.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. WI doesn't have the death penalty, fortunately, so it isn't even a possibility

worth discussing.

[Mariana]

62. Everyone who's committed first degree murder

planned to kill and set out to kill. Some of them used weapons to kill. Some killed with their bare hands.

I really wonder why you make an exception for this particular killer. There are other killers with much higher body counts. There are other killers who also committed rape, torture, kidnapping, and various other horrible crimes, in addition to murder. There are other killers who murdered little children, disabled people, or elderly people. What is it about this killer that's caused you to consider changing your mind about the death penalty?

[Cirque du So-What]

3. Capital punishment is no way to save money

https://law.jrank.org/pages/5002/Capital-Punishment-COSTS-CAPITAL-PUNISHMENT.html

[AkFemDem]

5. I would pick a child killer or serial killer...

Or rapist-killer or someone like the guy who shot up the black church in Charleston before I picked some messed up 17 yr old who got sucked into messed up ideology and subsequently got in over his head and panic killed some innocent people, to completely turn my back on my belief that it isn’t in the realm of man to decide who lives and dies.

Prisons are full of killers, with long lists of victims. Nothing about this kid seems inherently any worse than the rest of them. Prosecute him, lock him away.

[OhioBlue]

20. exactly this.

[lastlib]

52. I made an exception for Timothy McVeigh--that's as far as I'll go.

No, not for this kid. And as noted, it's not an option. He's only 17--a life sentence will be cruel enough for him.

[tulipsandroses]

6. That little shit and his enablers should be put in a vat of hot oil

I was very happy to hear John Heileman call him a domestic terrorist on tv today. No mincing words about a "troubled kid" like other journalists. Call this shit out for what it is. When young men join the Taliban, Isis they are not called "troubled".
Young minority men that join gangs are not called troubled. Lets stop the bullshit!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. We don't torture people to death either.

Let's not be like them.

[Stuart G]

11. Yes, maybe a...."vat of hot oil" for awhile, then lifetime in prison. Every once in a while..back

to the vat for a refresher course.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Funny how we liberals can also revert to barbarism when the other side pisses us off.

Just stop it.

[Skittles]

31. it is disgusting and pathetic

these same people will scream about police abuse but would encourage people to torture prisoners?

[tulipsandroses]

36. I have no good will when it comes to white supremacists so we will agree to disagree

They get no mercy or grace from me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

37. Mercy and grace aren't necessary. The Constitution is.

He gets a fair trial no matter how much you hate him.

[tulipsandroses]

41. Trial. Then Vat of oil. Electric Chair. Lethal Injection. Don't care how

I am responding to the topic that was posted. Death Penalty- which I don't object to for this terrorist.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. Well, since Wisconsin doesn't have the death penalty

and torture is unconstitutional in all states, I'm afraid you'll have to settle for LWOP.

[obamanut2012]

71. Seriously? Are you a liberal or a wingnut?

[AkFemDem]

13. So you are saying young men who join gangs...

And subsequently kill someone should be boiled in a vat of oil?

Seriously, wtf? Since when do democrats embrace torture and disfigurement as a legitimate punishment?

[Stuart G]

15. I am not talking about young men who join gangs, I am talking about this particular killer named

Kyle Rittenhouse...that is all

[AkFemDem]

18. Okay first I was responding to another poster but...

If we apply this equally then of course your logic applies to people who join other gangs as well.

Imo these histrionics are because the right are embracing this kid and I GET that knee jerk reaction but be honest at least that it’s not really about this kid, it’s about the cultural movement that supports him.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. He is entitled to a fair prosecution in a court and before a jury

and with the legal defense to which he has a right under the Constitution. If he is found guilty he'll be sentenced under the laws of the state of Wisconsin to a penalty that does not include either death or boiling in oil. Most likely he'd get life without parole, but that's for a jury or a plea bargain to determine. Not pissed off people on an internet message board who for some reason have forgotten that the Constitution applies to all criminal defendants, no matter who they are or what they did.

[Amishman]

72. And we need understand a not guilty result under law is possible no matter how much we are repulsed

I've said this a few times already, but under WI law there is a decent chance he can successfully claim self defense given the videos show him running away before both shootings.

right and wrong does not always mean legal and illegal.

This is going to be very very ugly.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

92. That's also possible. I don't think a complete acquittal is likely, but

Last edited Fri Aug 28, 2020, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

his age and other circumstances might make it possible for him to plead guilty to a lesser charge or agree to a sentence that would make parole a possibility. I just read that he's in custody in IL awaiting extradition proceedings, so he won't be back in WI for an arraignment just yet. So I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

16. Funny how we can talk just like the folks we deplore. Let's not.

[canetoad]

68. NO

Just no. Medieval torture.

[USALiberal]

12. WTF! NO!!!!How China, Iran and Saudi Arabia of you! nt

[meadowlander]

17. Yeah, no. You don't support the dp for Jeffrey Dahmer but you do for this snot-nosed punk?

This is exactly the kind of kid who should spend a couple decades behind bars growing up and trying to salvage something from the life he threw away before it even got started.

[Stuart G]

21. Maybe Jeffery Dahmer should get the death too.. maybe...(just thinking about it)

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. It's a little late for that; he died in prison some years ago.

[roamer65]

64. Yes, he got the "unofficial" death penalty.

Dahmer got what he deserved.

WARNING: Graphic explanation of his crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer#1978

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

96. So you *are* in favor of the death penalty.

If you preface your comments with "I'm against the death penalty, but..." and then you go on to say that you'd favor it for the Kenosha shooter, and then maybe for Jeffrey Dahmer, too (except that he's already dead), you're not against the death penalty; you're in favor of it. Your proposed application of it might be narrower than some - and nobody is in favor of it for all crimes or all defendants - but that slope is slippery enough to constitute a cliff. There's no incremental favoring or not favoring. Once you say you'd be OK with the state killing any convicted criminal you're saying you're OK with the death penalty. Don't tell us you're against it because you aren't.

[Stuart G]

97. Maybe...?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

98. There's no "maybe." Take a stand and defend it.

Either you approve of the state killing a convicted criminal or you don't. It's binary; yes or no. No maybes.

[Skittles]

19. newsflash

you are for the death penalty

[Stuart G]

23. Never have been in the past...not once..but maybe ???maybe I am changing my mind...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. Either you're for it or you aren't. You don't get to pick and choose.

If you're for it you believe it's OK for the state to kill people - not just this person, because the laws in those benighted states that still use it don't get to single out any particular defendant because we particularly hate him. In fact, as applied, the death penalty in those states is disproportionately given to Black defendants. Is that what you want?

[Skittles]

29. THANK YOU

[qwlauren35]

27. I feel that way about Dylann Roof

I can't remember ever wanting a person to die, slowly and painfully, as I do Dylann Roof.

Life in prison is waaaaaaaaaaaay too good for him.

Chain him to a rock and whip him for an hour every day.

Or just draw and quarter him. That's my favorite idea.

[Skittles]

32. who exactly would do this torture?

[qwlauren35]

33. Um....

On a public website, it is not appropriate to suggest that any individual would be willing to participate, but if a call went out for volunteers, I think there would be a line.

I am pro death penalty. I won't pretend not to be.

[Skittles]

46. you would seriously be in favor of people volunteering to torture?

done here

[sarisataka]

28. I am against the death penalty...

unless it is a minor that I despise, then torture and kill that little fucker

[Stuart G]

30. Maybe, just maybe...in this case only...yes, torture and kill ..."that little fucker."

[sarisataka]

89. So let's dive deeper- why this case only

what makes this case so egregious that it deserves a one time only exception?

It seems there are many other murders that are much more "worthy" of exceptional punishment based on a sadistic method of killing the victim or the targeting of a particularly vulnerable victim. Even on the potential haye factor of the crime, it seems the killers of Ahmaud Arbery who chased and murdered him like a hunting pack would be considered for the death penalty sooner than this case.

Since one time exceptions are not often actually one time, and that we want to at least pay lip service to the 14th Amendment (the 8th is already out the window), what guidelines would you suggest so we can determine what is the next one time exception?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

34. Some of the comments on this thread, advocating torture and death

for someone who's entitled to the same Constitutional protections and is subject to the same lawful penalties as any other criminal defendant, are pretty appalling. I thought liberals weren't into punishing people by boiling them in oil or killing them (and in a state where the death penalty isn't even available). Even the guy who tried to blow up an airplane over Detroit is in a federal prison instead of having been tortured and executed. Do we advocate for those extrajudicial, unconstitutional penalties to be imposed only on right-wing terrorists while arguing that foreign terrorists are entitled to the protection of our Constitution - which we have done, and should continue to do? Come on, people. Get a grip. Either you're for the death penalty or you're against it. Either you're for torture or you're against it. Pick a position and explain why it should only apply to this one guy because - why, he's a murderous right-wing MAGAt punk? He is certainly that, but he has the same right to a fair trial as all the other terrorists who are now sitting in prison, alive and not tortured, because our laws won't let us do that. And remember, it was the right-wingers who were all about torture and death for foreign terrorists. We're not like them, are we?

[cwydro]

38. Thank you.

Some of these posts, smh.

[ismnotwasm]

58. Thank you.

[canetoad]

69. Thank you

Some comments on this thread make me shudder that they come from fellow human beings.

[USALiberal]

80. +1000! nt

[dware]

83. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Some of the comments I'm reading here sicken me to my core.

Torture and the DP? WTF?

I just can't believe that any liberal/progressive would even be in favor of this.

[bullwinkle428]

88. The comments you're referencing completely take me back to

Chump's comments about the Central Park Five.

[demmiblue]

95. It's disgusting. n/t

[roamer65]

35. Wisconsin state prison general population.

They got Dahmer.

[mvd]

39. I agree that is is tempting sometimes, and..

I once was not completely against the death penalty. But I have been anti-death penalty for many years now. I won’t make an exception because it goes against all my reasons for opposing it. For me, if I support it once, it opens things up for more. Plus, this person is a minor.

[Stuart G]

44. Yes, it is ...."tempting"....I will be thinking about this one for a long time. This particular

fellow planned it all out and carried it out in a way that is sickening. After all this is a discussion
forum, and this is ...a discussion.

[mvd]

45. I do hope he gets life in prison

I don’t think he should live a regular life again after the way he did this.

[Stuart G]

47. Yes, I hope so too. Sometimes the horror of it all gets to me. It gets to all of us in different

ways. So many and so many more. And this one really got to me..

[FBaggins]

40. I actually support the DP in some cases... but not here

This is certainly criminal behavior... but almost certainly not first degree murder. Even if the state had the DP and he weren’t a minor.

[Ilsa]

43. He needs to be in jail for a long time, and his mother should be charged

with aiding his crime.

[BGBD]

49. I oppose the death penalty for one reason only

because a lot of people have been executed and later found to be innocent.

I watched this happen, no worry about it having been somebody else.

Light him up.

[Stuart G]

51. Yes, I had those same ideas too. This time it is clear who did it.

Maybe this fellow because of his preparation and the way he carried it out really got to me. I often don't feel like this, but the horror of this one is truly awful.

[roamer65]

63. Yes, a rubicon was crossed.

[greenjar_01]

61. A dopey juvenile wildly manipulated by every adult in his life is not really a great case

for an "exception" to your death penalty opposition.

[EllieBC]

65. Wow. So many people calling for torture and death penalty.

Crazy how crazy the political climate has made everyone. Or maybe it’s the virus. Or maybe there’s something in the water.

But if you want to cheer for the death penalty today then you can no longer claim some moral high ground and finger wag in disagreement it next execution.

[akbacchus_BC]

66. Even though he is guilty, let him suffer the consequences of his actions!

Life without parole. He is white and will not spend his entire life in prison. If he is given the death penalty, later on, some idiot rethuglican governor will pardon him, as he is young, and that will be a travesty to his victims.

[canetoad]

67. Stuart, you are either for or against the death penalty

You don't get to sit on the fence and say, 'I'm anti-death penalty, BUT....'

That means you believe in the DP, even if only in certain cases. You need to not hedge your bets, make a moral decision and live with the decision you have made.

[obamanut2012]

70. Yes, murdering someone for murdering someone makes so much sense

A civilized society does not murder criminals.

[Vinca]

74. I'm betting Trump pardons him. Just wait.

[obamanut2012]

77. He can't -- it is a state charge

[Vinca]

104. Oops. You're right. Well, that's something to be grateful for.

[dware]

86. The Mango Menace doesn't have the power to pardon him,

Kyle Rittenhouse is being charged by the state of WI, only the Gov. of WI can pardon him, and what are the chances of Gov. Evers pardoning him?

I would say less than zero.

[tenderfoot]

78. This is one of the most disgusting threads ever

[USALiberal]

79. +1000! nt

[DFW]

81. It's worth it to keep him alive with life without parole

For the first few decades he‘ll be an embittered hateful fascist, but later on, he‘ll be a remorseful old jailbird warning younger prisoners not to throw their lives away for one hateful thrill like he did.

[Stuart G]

82. Maybe that is the answer..keep him alive without parole, and "he'll be a remorseful

old jailbird warning younger prisoners not to throw their lives away for one hateful thrill like he did.".....

This is the key word....as it was in the original post...."maybe"....Perhaps that is the real solution as
opposed to my original post. Maybe that is a much better course of action than the death penalty. I guess I was wrong...at least I admit it.
............................................ ..........

[DFW]

85. Mine is just an opinion, as valid or worthless as anyone else's

Just my take on what I'd do. Sure, NOW I'd like to kick him in the face until he didn't have one left, but down the road, both he and his face will be forgotten. This way, he'd serve SOME purpose other than taking up someone else's spot in a cemetery.

[Stuart G]

90. Perhaps your opinion, as sound as it is, really changed my opinion on this.

I don't claim perfection when it comes to opinions. Yes, I had an opinion yesterday, and presented it. Yes, it was an opinion that I normally don't have, but your presentation clearly has changed me on this particular case. Thank You for your presentation which clarified my thinking.

[bullwinkle428]

84. If you start to pick and choose, then you're NOT anti-death penalty.

[mercuryblues]

87. The death penalty costs more than

imprisoning someone for life.

https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-penalty-vs-life-in-prison-4689874

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

93. True. But the death penalty gives people their pound of flesh

which is what some on this thread seem to be looking for, not justice. Executing this butthole won't bring back the people he killed, nor will a life sentence. There is no way to balance actions like this, so the only way to afford any kind of "justice" is to apply a fair procedure under laws that mete out consequences and protect the public. Otherwise it's just retribution. An eye for an eye makes us all blind.

[mercuryblues]

99. I don't shed a tear over the likes of

Bundy, Gaskins and a few others.

When you consider the facts over emotion all that is left is an emotional based decision, one way or the other.

The death penalty is not cheaper than life in prison. It is also not a deterrent to murder.

The thing is, I can say that I am for or against it. I truly won't know unless I am put in a position to make that choice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. No.

We can all think of people who forfeited the right to live but at the end of the day that's not up to the state.It's up to God.

[milestogo]

102. He is 17.

Capital Punishment of children is unacceptable, no matter what the crime.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

103. Capital punishment of anybody is unacceptable, no matter what the crime.