Think About It - Captialism As It Is Now Being Practiced A Failure.

[TheMastersNemesis]

The rise in poverty alone proves that capitalism is a failure as it is now being practices as "trickle down" or global economics. And the rise in poverty is not just happening here. It is happening all over the world. And Europe is having problems with lowering wages and worker protections as well.

We would not need all these safety nets, if capitalism was creating prosperity for the masses. The way we are practicing "savage" capitalism creates a lot of millionaires and billionaires. The Reagan revolution is what started the explosive rise of the super upper class in 1980. The oligarchs here and internationally have more influence on the flow of money than they have ever had.

Now the GOP is trying to sell slavery for the masses through the back door. They claim that the "job creators" will put a chicken in every pot if you just give them more money. The real truth is that all that one will get is feathers and I doubt there will be even any feathers.

[a geek named Bob]

1. I would suggest that we return

to the regulated Capitalism that worked in the past.

What's your solution?

[Vincardog]

2. I vote for socialism. Regulated Capitalism left the power to subvert the regulations in the hands

of the same rich bastids that are screwing us now.

[a geek named Bob]

3. I'll pass on that one, thanks...

It never seems to work.

Social Democracies seem to work. "pure" socialism seems to end with pogroms, gulags, and mass deaths.

Pass.

[Vincardog]

4. Where does "pure" Capitalism lead? Same place

[a geek named Bob]

7. really?

Not sure I know of any pure capitalist states.

We have too many examples of socialist nightmare states.

In a capitalist system, I can sell my idea for money. In a socialist state, they give me a medal, and tell me I owe less.

Yuck on socialism.

[JaneyVee]

11. Both a pure capitalist system & a pure socialist system lead to the same place

Oppressing the majority. Any sane economic system must have equal parts of both, including a well regulated financial system.

[Yavin4]

22. All Pure Economic Theories Depends on Human Beings Reaching A Non-Existent Level of Development

All pure economic theories (including Libertarianism) heavily depend on humans acting honestly, putting the needs of the masses ahead of their own, and not being corrupt.

It requires a Gene Rodenberry Star Trek level of human evolution, and we're no where near that as a species.

[OnyxCollie]

13. Weber ([1922] 1978) argues, most people will be motivated by self-interested material advantage,

just as in a market economy:

What is decisive is that in socialism, too, the individual will under these conditions (in which individuals have some capacity to make economically relevant decisions) ask first whether to him, personally, the rations allotted and the work assigned, as compared with other possibilities, appear to conform with his own interests.... (It) would be the interests of the individual, possibly organized in terms of the similar interests of many individuals as opposed to those of others, which would underlie all action. The structure of interests and the relevant situation would be different (from a market economy), and there would be other means of pursuing interests, but this fundamental factor would remain just as relevant as before. It is of course true that economic action which is oriented on purely ideological grounds to the interests of others does exist. But it is even more certain that the mass of men do not act in this way and that it is an induction from experience that they cannot do so and never will.

[tama]

17. No return

Ive understood that you are local DIY democracy guy - anarchist in heart.

[a geek named Bob]

20. depends on what you mean by anarchy...

We need to have a legal system, or things tend to break down to fighting over scraps.
We need an enforcement structure, or those laws aren't very useful.

Other than that, I'm willing to play.

[tama]

26. No rules at all

would be a stupid rule. So as long as rules are made and agreed by democratic consensus and/or people have freedom to walk away from a rule system they don't like, cool.

[a geek named Bob]

28. the problem begins with enforcement...

What if 50 people decide they need my cat for a sacrifice? (I'm trying for an over the top example...)

How do I and my cat live safely?

[cr8tvlde]

32. Reminds me: Two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for lunch.

[a geek named Bob]

34. pretty much nailed it in one...

I like the police... They protect my wife and cats. They also keep people from taking my stuff on a whim.

[cr8tvlde]

36. Isn't that just "So Socialist"...probably expect someone to show up when the house is on fire

with a few strapping fellows, a shiny red truck and a hook up to the, local water system hydrant. What will they think of next.

[a geek named Bob]

38. oh look! it's a black or white fallacy, attempting

to be clever...

look, cr8tvide, I have no problems paying taxes. I have problems with bands of idiots decide they automatically have a "right" to my stuff. I consider my taxes to be an investment in my community. How does a band of idiots have a right to my personal library? My tool shop?

When you try to conflate tax-based services with socialism, you demean your own intelligence (such as it is...)

[cr8tvlde]

44. I will reasses the use of the Sarcasm button and/or my comments. I am so far to the left

that I forget sometimes. Peace.

[a geek named Bob]

45. That's cool...

Peace unto to you, too.

[tama]

37. In consensus system

your cat has a veto.

It's the majority rule and/or various oligarchies where others can 'legally' kill your cat.

[a geek named Bob]

39. not adviseable...

you'd be amazed at what you can do with some camping gear, a radio shack, and some time...

[porphyrian]

5. If we're going to keep it, we have to end predatory capitalism.

I don't personally believe we have to get rid of it entirely (though many do), because I can envision something more akin to a garage sale or flea market capitalism, where everyone walks away happy. But, yes, it must change.

[a geek named Bob]

8. I can go along with that!

sort of a vamos a negocia style of capitalism.

[porphyrian]

15. Right. We don't have to fall back into barter, but we can have the best of both. n/t

[a geek named Bob]

19. for giggles and grins...

a few friends and I decided to try our hand at creating a mixed economy system, made of:
-straight cash
-local currency
-algamic (sp) "excess ecoomy"
-work hours bank
-barter

There's too many ways to make it work, so it's pretty much pick the system that works for you and yours.

[porphyrian]

24. Interesting. I think you can do just about anything on a small scale...

...and make it work. The problems arise when trying to run an economy on a national or international level.

[a geek named Bob]

25. This is one of the reasons I'm for using existing rail lines for bulk transport of created fuels...

it would allow communities/states/regions to pool collected fuels.

Gimme time to figure a better system... (I'm a stubborn lad, so I ought to be able to bash something together...)

[TheMastersNemesis]

9. The Problem Is That We Have Predatory Capitalism. That Has To Change.

An owner has a right to a reasonable amount of income but not at the expense of paying workers starvation wages. CEO's are getting all the shares of wealth their workers get at the expense of the workers themselves. The raises, benefits and well being of working class Americans are being taken by their management.

[porphyrian]

14. Agreed. It has to change.

I think it can be done if we adhere to the principle of putting people before profit rather than the other way around. Capitalism should be a tool used by and for people, not against people.

[leftstreet]

43. There's no such thing as Most Excellent Unicorn Capitalism

When you regulate a system designed to amass capital in private hands, it is no longer Capitalism.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/


Not to say your sentiment is wrong. I agree fully - the system sucks for us peons.

[JaneyVee]

6. Trickle down economics has failed. We need a whole new worldview.

You can't have continuous growth on a finite planet, we must have sustainability. Trickle down economics is degrading and insulting to our citizens. Literally like dogs waiting for scraps.

[riverbendviewgal]

10. Canada is doing okay

Canada is a socialistic democracy while the USA is a Republic...

We are not perfect but I think our umbrella is pretty big.

Our banking system has more regulations so we didn't crash like the USA.

We have a mortgage system where we have to put down 20 percent downpayment and we don't deduct the interest from our income taxes.

and we all have universal health care. We go to the doctor when we are not feeling well and thus often avoid more serious illnesses.

[RKP5637]

30. And Canada cares about people, not just $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ like the US. n/t

[socialindependocrat]

12. Let them add up all the $$$$ they've accumulated over the past 35 years!

They have accumulated a massive amount of wealth and they are asking for more.

The experiment was tried and failed.

Time to enrich the coffers of the middle class.

Greed corrupts
- time to regulate
- time to break up banks
- time to break up monopolies and reintroduce competition

Nuf said - let's do it!

It's clear where we need to go.
Stop the propaganda

[RKP5637]

31. It's an illness, a compulsive behavior, accumulate more and more $$$$ without

regard to individuals or the country. The US is seen as a giant slot machine with payouts to those rigging the slots. ... AKA wall street and financial institutions.

[tama]

16. It's not failure

It's working exactly as meant. Savage class war against we the people and the whole planet, for the benefit of tiny fraction of people totally blinded by greed.

[Iris]

23. Yes. Just had this discussion with a few like-minded people

and one of them pointed this out. It is so true.

[raouldukelives]

40. Yep. And still so many willing to lend a hand.

Loaning them money for the next crime against humanity in the hopes of a glorious return on the investment. The more people understand it is only as powerful as they allow it to be, the more we can start to create a system that doesn't leave our mentally ill to die in the cold or our redwood forests to be turned into decking for Dubai hotels.

[tama]

41. They own the money

they make it. Control of money is how they force people into their slaves and rob everything.

[Xolodno]

18. I think..

..Keynes style economics needs another look. Because Monetarism has obviously failed...how many bubbles do you need as proof.

Of course some will say that's what led to stagflation...but, you can also argue that the slow abandonment and semi-implementation of Keynes style is what led to that.

[PowerToThePeople]

21. K & R. n/t

[elleng]

27. To function successfully, capitalism demands regulation.

[RKP5637]

29. Well said! Especially that what we have now is "savage" capitalism. It's a bullshit

system the way it's now practiced. Wealth builders skew the system in their favor with hoards of money, gut regulations and screw the majority. In the big picture it's a F'ed dumb system the way it's currently practiced except for those on the take, and in essence that's what capitalism is about, screw everyone around you and more for ME ME ME. And we wonder why there are so many hostilities ... DUH!

[War Horse]

33. It's funny, I've heard a lot of "Capitalism's never really been put into practise"

from several RWers of late. You know, THAT'S why it hasn't worked as it should, and all that... Sounds familiar

[cr8tvlde]

35. War...The War Tax...The Military Industrial Complex

Just like Republicans want to go for the easy raid ... the Middle Class, the Democrats need to get serious about going for the other raid ... the Office of Global Policemen we so gently call The Defense Department.

We have a Corporatocray or a Kleptocracy or a mixture of both. It's like the Bush tax cuts...had to toss the Peasants a little tax bone to significantly cut those of the Ruling Class.

[Taverner]

42. Abolish Capitalism. Nuff said.

[a geek named Bob]

46. then how do you intend to get new innovations?

Drugs and dancing girls?

[SilveryMoon]

47. Power corrupts and absulte power corrputs absolutely

This phrase is one of the ideas of how our government should work. Power corrupts and thus government should be small in order to prevent a monarchy or some sort of government that stifles individual freedom.

Money is power. It buys flexibility from rules, it buys lawyers to ensure you receive only the lightest of punishments, nowadays it even allows you to buy loyalty from politicians. A celebrity or politician who has lots of money can afford a good lawyer and avoid jail time for drug possession/use, where somebody who has no money or political connections is looking at jail time and a ruined life. Enough time with enough money and you may end up looking down on people who make a fraction of what you make.

Why this basic idea never really made its way to how we as a country viewed capitalism is beyond me. People who are worth billions or hundreds of millions can have a radically different way of looking at life than the common people. We see it in how they view taxes, (they move money offshore to avoid them when taxes are already low compared to the past) and we see it in how they view workers (outsource jobs where people are happy to accept a few dollars a day in unsafe working conditions all day everyday, or in the case of Wal-Mart, paying your workers minimum wage and keep them from full time status so you don't have to pay benefits and healthcare.) Hell we see it in how much money they throw at politicians who turn around and write new loopholes in the tax code to exploit but refuse to spend that money paying workers here a living wage.

Look at how much union members are paid compared to CEOs. Unions that come together and demand slightly more money and benefits or better working conditions get shut down and prevented from collectively bargaining while CEOs destroy those jobs, send them overseas and pocket the profit.

If that is not a solid case of money corrupting or drastically altering how people view the world around them, I don't know what is. This mentality, this corruption, this blatant love of money over people, over country, has given rise to a dangerous and savage form of capitalism that is choking the life of the US and others. This outlook will strangle the whole planet eventually. (If it isn't already).

And it will continue to choke the life of the US if people don't realize that the mythical job creators are not going to create jobs here in the US. They will create jobs where they can take advantage of cheap labor, lax labor and environment laws, and low taxes and maximize their (already huge) profits. They have had years to create jobs and what did we get? Countless jobs shipped overseas, wages that have not kept with inflation and middle class people paying higher federal income taxes than people like Mitt Romney.

Speaking of Mitt Romney, who believes almost half he country are moochers who refuse to take responsibility for themselves (who are too poor to pay taxes largely thanks to people like him destroying jobs). And people like Paul Ryan who believe Social Security is an "entitlement" (except when he uses it thanks to his father) when people have been paying into these programs all their working lives. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are perhaps two of the clearest examples of this mentality of how money can corrupt.

Until the US recognizes that making a profit is all well and good until you begin to screw over your employees and country just because you have an uncontrollable greed for more profit, this savage form of capitalism will continue to strangle the country. What will take to end this savage capitalism, I haven't a clue. But I firmly believe that the US as a whole needs to stop excusing these corrupt parasites first and foremost. I think instead of saying "well businesses need to make a profit to survive and those unions are greedy (Union members get paid how much? CEOs get paid hundreds of times more than the average employee)" or "government taxes are too high (It's at its lowest point for individuals and profitable corporations can not only get out paying the corporate taxes, but get money back from the government)" people should start organizing boycotts or protests of business who park their money overseas or outsource jobs for no better reason than the love of more money.

And people need to start asking themselves if an elected official can be corrupted by love of power, why can't a wealthy person or corporation be just as corrupted by a love of money?