Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member
 

Boogiemack

(1,406 posts)
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 05:26 AM Sep 2020

Can we count on our military to save our democracy? No other institution can.

Will they obey Trump if he clearly loses and refuses to leave office. This is not hyperbole. It's a real concern. If you don't think so, you haven't been paying attention. More influential persons than I are concerned.

Can we count on our military to save our democracy? No other institution can. (Original Post) Boogiemack Sep 2020 OP
If the military is anything like civilian society uriel1972 Sep 2020 #1
I doubt it. lapfog_1 Sep 2020 #2
Mind you uriel1972 Sep 2020 #3
yes... but the repuke plan is to lapfog_1 Sep 2020 #4
The military answers to the commander-in-chief--the duly elected CIC. Karma13612 Sep 2020 #5
You are correct that the military sarisataka Sep 2020 #10
interesting... Karma13612 Sep 2020 #14
That is correct sarisataka Sep 2020 #17
Fingers crossed Karma13612 Sep 2020 #18
No. Boomerproud Sep 2020 #6
This is not Seven Days in May DFW Sep 2020 #7
It's the silly season. ooky Sep 2020 #8
FWIW, 200 retired generals have endorsed Biden. Granted, they retired, but themaguffin Sep 2020 #9
It's a safe bet that the Secret Service will be happy to see Trump and the First Family leave Klaralven Sep 2020 #11
"Military intervention to save democracy" is an oxymoron struggle4progress Sep 2020 #12
Thank you. GoCubsGo Sep 2020 #15
NO. EndlessWire Sep 2020 #13
Not this again. You are pleading for the end of democracy & the end of our republic.... Hekate Sep 2020 #16
If you have to count on the military to save you your democracy is already dead (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Sep 2020 #19

uriel1972

(4,261 posts)
1. If the military is anything like civilian society
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 05:31 AM
Sep 2020

there will be a hard-core fan-base for that person within it's ranks. The questions are how influentially they are placed and whether they allow that their prejudices to overcome discipline.

lapfog_1

(28,531 posts)
2. I doubt it.
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 05:34 AM
Sep 2020

The military will not want to be involved.

This election will be on the various Sec of States to certify a count (days after Nov 3th) and a slate of electors...

Then it will depend on the State legislators of the various states either accepting the certified vote count or asserting a new slate of electors (there is no requirement that they accept the certified vote from the Sec of State for each state).

Then there would be court challenges on these slates of electors (Supreme Court). And if that can't be resolved, it goes to the US House... but with some very strange voting rules.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if-trump-refuses-concede/616424/



lapfog_1

(28,531 posts)
4. yes... but the repuke plan is to
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 06:00 AM
Sep 2020

a) stop counting any votes that are not registered by Nov 3 (not counting mail in ballots, even if they arrive before Nov 3rd)... they have already tried to wreck the post office to keep the mail in ballots.

then when that doesn't work

b) just throwing out the vote and the legislature of the state seats their own electoral college slate of electors

that will create a large number of legal cases that will be pushed to the Supreme court (no matter who wins in the lower courts). I think if RBG had lived to vote... this vote would be a series of 5-4 decisions in favor of democratic elections and not outright overturn of the will of the people (Roberts would vote if favor of democracy). This is why getting another ultra conservative on the court is so important to trump... right now it would be a 4-4 decision... which would let the lower court decision in each such case to stand. My guess is that the repukes don't believe the lower courts would rule in favor of overturning the will of the people after all votes are counted. So... new supreme court, 5-4 in favor of Trump

At that point the slates of electors would have a US House fight... and by the required date may not be able to vote for President ( the real election ).

Now it goes to the House to resolve. And in a stunning bit of arcane rules in the Constitution, the Repukes could win as every state delegation to the house gets to vote just among themselves. After that, each state gets 1 and only 1 vote for President (giving Wyoming as much say as California, even though California has 50 times more people).

We must vote early and in person... I know, some of us might die doing this... but democracy is worth it. My dad fought in a war to defend this country, my brother died in the military defending this country, the least I can do is vote in person and before Nov 3.

And fight like hell to keep the 9th SCOTUS Justice... and then hope enough swing state repuke controlled state legislatures decide that overturning a huge Biden win just isn't worth it. Then, come late January... we have the Secret Service arrest and evict Donald J. Trump... and turn him over to prosecutors in the SDNY or even the Hague. And be ready to send the national guard keep the peace from the "Proud Boys" and the other Nazis that infect this country.

Karma13612

(4,485 posts)
5. The military answers to the commander-in-chief--the duly elected CIC.
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 10:00 AM
Sep 2020

As of 12 noon on January 20, 2021, if Biden wins, he will be the President.

This means the military will answer to him.

The Presidency is not based on a physical location. It is based on a person and an elected ‘office’.

Regardless of Biden’s physical location, the military will behave accordingly and business of running the United States will happen as it should. Doesn’t matter if it’s being done in someone’s farmhouse kitchen or the oval office.

The tRump can throw his temper tantrum in the oval office if he wants to, it just won’t get him anywhere. And there won’t be anyone around to listen to him anyway. The others will have departed as expected.

If we don’t have a final winner decided by that point, welcome Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

That’s just my take on it since I have read other reliable sources explain the concept. It certainly makes sense, and helps me sleep at night.

What is far more concerning to me is the fact that we now are going to face ballot and voting procedure challenges in swing states with a 6-3 conservative supreme court. North Carolina Republicans already got their marching orders and have reacted as instructed. Guess who wins those battles.


sarisataka

(17,419 posts)
10. You are correct that the military
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 10:23 AM
Sep 2020

will follow lawful orders of the new President or acting President once the term expires.

If, for whatever reason, no President has been chosen, the Vice President will act as President- if the Senate has chosen one. If they have not, then the Speaker of the House will act as President. If there is no Speaker then the President Pro Tempore will act as President.

In all of those scenarios, the person is acting President. Whenever the House selects a candidate, that person will become the new President.

Karma13612

(4,485 posts)
14. interesting...
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 01:44 PM
Sep 2020
If, for whatever reason, no President has been chosen, the Vice President will act as President- if the Senate has chosen one.



That’s only if “the House of Representatives has not chosen a president-elect in time for the inauguration (noon on January 20)”


sarisataka

(17,419 posts)
17. That is correct
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 01:59 PM
Sep 2020

my fingers moved faster than my brain and I forgot to say if the HoR has failed to choose a President

DFW

(53,100 posts)
7. This is not Seven Days in May
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 10:04 AM
Sep 2020

Not are we Turkey, Burma, Greece, Chile or Guatemala. We (fortunately) do not have a tradition of the military taking over the government whenever they see fit to.

Not so far, anyway. It's not exactly the best precedent to set.

themaguffin

(3,692 posts)
9. FWIW, 200 retired generals have endorsed Biden. Granted, they retired, but
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 10:20 AM
Sep 2020

it can be indicative of active duty. it's not the same as politics.

struggle4progress

(116,866 posts)
12. "Military intervention to save democracy" is an oxymoron
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 10:55 AM
Sep 2020

Democracy either will exist by popular demand, or it will simply cease to exist

GoCubsGo

(31,917 posts)
15. Thank you.
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 01:49 PM
Sep 2020

Nobody should be sitting around wanting for the military, or anyone else to "save democracy." Doing so will not give one the results one hopes for. It is up to us to save it ourselves.

EndlessWire

(6,004 posts)
13. NO.
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 11:58 AM
Sep 2020

The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Mark Milley. has already publicly stated that the military--the entirety of the military, all branches--will not take part in deciding the outcome of the election. He stated very clearly that he would not follow an illegal order. It is against the law of the land for the military to influence the outcome or enforce it.

What puzzles me is why you stated that no other institution can save our democracy.

WE THE PEOPLE can save our democracy. Plan A is to VOTE all of the GOP out of office, even the dogcatchers. You have a duty to present your vote to the polls one way or another. If you don't do that, then don't hope for military members to lay down their bodies for you.

If, somehow Trump plays games--and he will--it'll be ordinary citizens that take to the streets to fight back. It won't be business as usual.

We have a reputation for an attention span of about a week and a half. But, I believe Portland is showing the trend that will happen now. It won't blow over in a week or so, while Trump grits his teeth as the new dictator, waiting for acceptance. We will go the distance on our own.

Quite frankly, he will have to start a war somewhere else in order to prevail here at home. But, WE WILL NOT GIVE UP.

Hekate

(88,007 posts)
16. Not this again. You are pleading for the end of democracy & the end of our republic....
Thu Sep 24, 2020, 01:55 PM
Sep 2020

Several other posters in this thread have explained in detail why this is, so read on.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Can we count on our milit...