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Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:08 PM

I'm a Democrat. I don't want to defund the police. I want to give them a raise.

And so do you. We all should. This could easily be accomplished at no additional cost to the taxpayers. It would go a long way to returning accountability to the people. It is exactly the strategy the Conservatives have been using for years. And we should all get onboard with this immediately.

Sound too good to be true you say? It is easier than you think. Simply ban police unions. The police should be accountable to the people not the unions that hold no one accountable. Republicans have spent decades attacking public service unions with success. Why should the police unions be any different? The police work for us and we pay their salaries. Why should a union decide which police are protected when we know there is abuse. Their are lot of good cops it is true. The good ones are kept silent because of the power of the unions making all cops complicit even if they don't want to be.

With unions gone, there are no more union dues. That money becomes a raise for all police. Why haven't we tried to ban police unions already? A certain number of cops would certainly quit as a result and you know which cops those are. Drain the cesspool and see what gets filter out of the system.

Prove me wrong. This seems like a no-brainer.

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Reply I'm a Democrat. I don't want to defund the police. I want to give them a raise. (Original post)
Joe Nation Oct 2020 OP
Squinch Oct 2020 #1
ForgoTheConsequence Oct 2020 #3
DLCWIdem Oct 2020 #21
uppityperson Oct 2020 #2
SKKY Oct 2020 #22
qwlauren35 Oct 2020 #4
OnDoutside Oct 2020 #13
ismnotwasm Oct 2020 #29
pwb Oct 2020 #5
ihas2stinkyfeet Oct 2020 #34
Fresh_Start Oct 2020 #6
GeorgeGist Oct 2020 #7
brush Oct 2020 #11
BamaRefugee Oct 2020 #8
LanternWaste Oct 2020 #9
Walleye Oct 2020 #10
JonLP24 Oct 2020 #30
Walleye Oct 2020 #32
JonLP24 Oct 2020 #33
Initech Oct 2020 #12
ismnotwasm Oct 2020 #14
dem4decades Oct 2020 #15
Ferrets are Cool Oct 2020 #16
matt819 Oct 2020 #17
Squinch Oct 2020 #28
mvd Oct 2020 #18
Autumn Oct 2020 #19
aidbo Oct 2020 #20
Joe Nation Oct 2020 #23
ihas2stinkyfeet Oct 2020 #35
RANDYWILDMAN Oct 2020 #24
Squinch Oct 2020 #26
gulliver Oct 2020 #25
Squinch Oct 2020 #27
JonLP24 Oct 2020 #31

Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:09 PM

1. Yeah. Go ahead. Ban police unions. Pave the way to banning all unions. Then watch the little

bit of middle class that remains go down the drain.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:12 PM

3. Police Unions did that themselves.

The state troopers union stood by Scott Walker in Wisconsin and arrested teachers and firefighters for protesting.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #3)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:38 PM

21. It was the police unions

Who invited Trump into Seattle. I am sorry every other kind of union has been busted by the Rep. Except for police unions. And there is a reason. IMO they have too much power especially when they protect the officers who commit violence against African Americans.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:11 PM

2. Wtf? Ban unions and they'll make more money because they won't have to pay

Union dues?

Seriously?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:40 PM

22. I can't think of 1 time when banning unions has resulted in higher pay for the former...

...union members. Just sayin'...

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:13 PM

4. Unfortunately

this is a case where we have to figure out how to fight the unions. They do good things when it comes to negotiating pay and benefits.

We have to get the police to want incorruptible union staff. Staff who won't protect a criminal other than getting that person a good lawyer. Not save their jobs.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:31 PM

13. 100% agree.

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Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:37 PM

29. The police have had plenty of opportunities to police themselves

That they have chosen NOT to do so is deadly. Thereís an ex cop on TikTok who talks about being a cop on the hard streets of NYC somewhere, and he never used his gun. Didnít need body armor, etc.

Which got me thinking. While ďdefunding the policeĒ is absolutely horrible framing, the actual ideas behind it arenít. Cops arenít qualified in DV, child abuse, mental illness, yet we keep throwing them at those situations.

Cops in Seattle got nailed by the FEDS years ago for police brutality. Police brutality shouldnít be a thing, it is because of poor training or a shitty culture. Or both.

Couple weeks ago, my 3 year old granddaughter face-planted bad enough to need stitches in her tongue. We were in a remote area. On the way to the hospital, baby feel asleep and didnít seem to want to wake up. 911 was called. The EMTs out there are volunteers, but there was a social worker there as well because a minor child was involved , and one police officer. It was all calm and good. Social worker took point after the EMT finally got baby to open her mouth to see the tongue. Cop is hanging around, in case the situation was different than presented. (We are all white, on a Native American reservation for a small vacation.)

So, The whole ďdefundingď plan is, to my understanding is to set up scenarios like this. Let more experts in their fields take point, with cops providing backup. Police need to learn personal accountability and to be able to step away when itís not their arena. This will take really, really decent human beings as cops. Better than they are encouraged to be right now. They take a call for bizarre behavior? Ascertain safety and let MHPs take point. Cops go into a lot of really shitty situations, the worst humanity has to offer, which is why they are all butt hurt right now, but they also donít seem to want the help they need, OR itís not available if they do want it.

And they need to fucking acknowledge systemic racism. They need to shitcan every cop that shows those inclinations.

Our police model is as broken as are so many other things. Broken, or rather unevolved.



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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:16 PM

5. Democrats are pro Union always have been. So no.

We need to cut back on the stormtrooper look. They are way over dressed and armed against peaceful protesters.

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Response to pwb (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 10:35 PM

34. i dont know how the cops in chi even carry the packs they wear these says.

 

body armor, tasers, tear gas. must weigh 30 lbs. reminds me of how the dog fighters make their dogs wear weighted packs.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:17 PM

6. Remove unions from involvement in disciplinary actions

Make the community part of disciplinary action.

Try something old. Get rid of 5% of the worse police every year to make room for new better blood. Use community ratings and complaints to decide which police are exitted. Make police pay for complaints instead of making tax payers pay for the settlements.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:18 PM

7. Maybe instead of 5-6 months of Police Academy ...

they should require a Bachelors degree; like nurses, teachers, pilots etc.

I suspect with better educated cops we probably would need fewer thug cops. eg. Derek Chauvin.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:24 PM

11. This exactly. Other western nations school their recruits much longer...

and stress de-escalation tactics. This is the right approach.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:20 PM

8. I support "Dedumb the Police"

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:22 PM

9. I do not dig your anti-union sentiment. It reeks of anti-worker subversion.

 

"Prove me wrong. This seems like a no-brainer..."



Let's start with simply raising the standard of both hiring and training, and stop placing them in a position where they are forced to unprofessionally diagnose the mentally. And that's merely a start.



(head's-up if you ever have kids... throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a bad idea)

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:24 PM

10. I'm starting to think that the slogan defund the police was made up by a Republican.

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Response to Walleye (Reply #10)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:01 PM

30. That isn't true

The only time people paid attention was when there was national attention after the George Floyd protests.

In June 2020, the "defund the police" slogan gained widespread popularity during the George Floyd protests.[6] Black Lives Matter, Movement for Black Lives, and other activists have used the phrase to call for police budget reductions and to delegate certain police responsibilities to other organizations.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] In Black Reconstruction, first published in 1935, W. E. B. Du Bois wrote about "abolition-democracy", which advocated for the removal of institutions that were rooted in racist and repressive practices, including prisons, convict leasing, and white police forces. In the 1960s, activists such as Angela Davis advocated for the defunding or abolition of police departments.[15] The End of Policing, written by Alex S. Vitale, was published in 2017, and it has been called "... a manual of sorts for the defund movement."[16]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police

It is amazing that people don't do basic research and come up with wild assumptions instead.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:09 PM

32. Sorry, getting suspicious of everything. How about disarm the police just for an now.

After the election we can talk about defunding

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Response to Walleye (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:16 PM

33. Biden supports community policing which isn't anything new

Personally I don't think much would change but I hope Biden continues civil rights investigations of police departments which is is what the Obama administration did well. Trump has cut back on those.

As far as defund that is a local issue that is up to cities or counties to handle themselves. This isn't a national election or federal government issue.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:25 PM

12. I want to get the white supremacists out of law enforcement.

And take away their military weapons. No one needs a fucking tank and rocket launchers to patrol suburbia.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:33 PM

14. We are NOT going ban any unions.

No. No.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:34 PM

15. Funny as a 16 year old marching against the Viet Nam war in New Haven I was surprised one of

the chants was "Higher pay for cops". Of course there were cops all along the way.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:36 PM

16. NO

Rules keep me from saying what I really want to say about this

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 06:59 PM

17. Put the union issue aside for a moment

Require at least an associates degree and prefer a bachelors degree from an accredited community college, college, or university. Military service might substitute with conditions, length if service, rank attained, honorable discharge. But see below re limit on ex- military.

Verify social media and deny employment to anyone showing a range of discriminatory beliefs and behaviors.

Commit to a maximum percentage of ex-military, say 30%.

Assiduously check backgrounds to confirm applicants were not previously fired for cause or resigned for some failure or other.

Actively recruit lgbtq, women, Hispanics, people who reflect the nature of the community, e.g., Somalis in Minnesota, Muslims in Illinois, etc.

Commit to development of a lengthy, professional training program - 6 months of more. This can be in conjunction with other states, state police, etc. even a federal program.

Deny employment to anyone with any felony record.

Amend local laws to allow immediate termination of an officer who is found to have acted in violation of the law. In connection with this, create statewide mechanisms to investigate these sorts of violations. In meantime, suspension without pay. And automatic disqualification for law enforcement employment in that state. I would also like to see a national database but thatís unlikely.

And so much more.

I can understand the union comment. In many cases, police unions are the core of many of the problems. Many not everywhere but we all know itís there. Same with teacher unions in some places, which is why you have rubber room situations on NYC and maybe elsewhere.



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Response to matt819 (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:34 PM

28. This. All this. And take back all the damn tanks and flame throwers that have been bought by

podunk police departments.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:05 PM

18. The decline of unions is one reason for the rising inequality

We need them and canít pick and choose those we donít like. Are they perfect? No, but if we are going to have capitalism we need checks on it like unions.

I support defunding the police, but by a evaluation of the system location by location. Police funds may be too high in some places and ok in others.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:06 PM

19. A raise?? They are already over paid for what they do. And yeah, ban police unions and

the first time someone gets shot or killed they are fired. Unless they are in a fire fight with a criminal robbing a bank or a business, and the last one of those I remember was years ago.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:13 PM

20. Defund the police.

 

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:47 PM

23. The Police Union is a Right-wing organization

Do you seriously believe that all unions are Left-wing? They aren't. The Right is as capable of using unions as the Left. They've attacked the unions on the Left for decades. Why would anyone see the police union as a workers union? It simply shields the police from disciplinary actions even from the internal investigations units. In many cases, they work hand-in-hand.

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Response to Joe Nation (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 10:40 PM

35. the construction unions went straight downhill when they threw in w the mob.

 

i was a union carpenter in the 80's. the brotherhood didnt do shit for me but get me good health insurance. they didnt let women speak at meetings. they werent to keen on brothers of color, either.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 07:48 PM

24. As a Union guy and the son of a teamster...

I can't support getting rid of the union. you can renegotiate the rules, but you can't get rid of them.

I would love to see more diversity in the Portland police but that may take a while.

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Response to RANDYWILDMAN (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:31 PM

26. I'm a union person too. I'm with you. A union only a reflection of those who are unifying.

If you change the hiring policies and required qualifications, and get cops with some education and some pride in what the job really is, the union will reflect that.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:24 PM

25. Police unions are to unions what Fox News is to news.

We don't have "soldier unions." We shouldn't have police unions. Unions are fantastic and important as a rule, a very strong rule. But this is a classic case of the rare exception proving the overall rule.

Legitimate union folks should look at police unions and say, ya know, they're not me. They're bad.

And, yes, do give the good cops a raise. (Fire all the bad ones without a second thought.) Good money is a way to attract good people. And the definition of good for cops comes from civilians.

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Response to gulliver (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 08:32 PM

27. We SHOULD have soldier unions. We should have unions for every profession.

When we had more, there were a lot more people sharing in the wealth of the country.

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Response to Joe Nation (Original post)

Thu Oct 1, 2020, 09:03 PM

31. Police unions donate to DAs that let them off the hook

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