Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:16 PM Nov 2020

We seem to have forgotten the fact of BLACK BOX voting.

Voting here in Louisiana is pretty fucking comical, actually.

You go into a booth, punch buttons on a Votetronic touch screen, and then we're supposed to accept ON FAITH that our vote is going to be tabulated correctly to our chosen candidate. No receipt, no way to check online later.

"The vote is correct. We can't manipulate the votes because the totals have to match the number of signatures before entering."

To which I say THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Who wrote the Votetronic software? Republican or Democrat? Why am I not allowed to inspect your program code, MR. REPLUBLICAN VOTETRONIC MANUFACTURER.

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
We seem to have forgotten the fact of BLACK BOX voting. (Original Post) Goodheart Nov 2020 OP
Banning those machines needs to be a very high priority. lagomorph777 Nov 2020 #1
We need a massive update/rewrite of Voting law, including that... Wounded Bear Nov 2020 #4
+1 So much ratfuckery at every level needs to be stopped. lagomorph777 Nov 2020 #12
While I understand your point, I am against releasing vote machine coding to the public. Claustrum Nov 2020 #2
Valid point, but it needs oversight by gov't engineers... Wounded Bear Nov 2020 #3
I would have believe government engineers before Trump era. Claustrum Nov 2020 #8
I believe that voting machine software in Australia is publicly inspectable. Goodheart Nov 2020 #6
I am not just worrying about changing actual votes. Claustrum Nov 2020 #16
No need. Just ban the damned things. They were created for only one purpose. To steal elections. lagomorph777 Nov 2020 #13
Get rid of the electronic machines! PJMcK Nov 2020 #27
There is no need for electronic voting machines... hunter Nov 2020 #29
Jon Bel Edwards (D) was elected Governor on the same voting machines... brooklynite Nov 2020 #5
Until now, you mean. Goodheart Nov 2020 #7
And, by the way, if the machine code, itself, is programmed to switch every 10th vote from Goodheart Nov 2020 #9
The whole nation needs voter-verified paper ballots duhneece Nov 2020 #10
Oh for God's sake greenjar_01 Nov 2020 #11
What's your problem? Goodheart Nov 2020 #14
? You are opposed to election security? lagomorph777 Nov 2020 #15
There's been no proof Turin_C3PO Nov 2020 #17
Your post is a classic non sequitur. Goodheart Nov 2020 #18
"I" Turin_C3PO Nov 2020 #19
You have no way of knowing whether it's happened or not. Goodheart Nov 2020 #20
I said I'm for Turin_C3PO Nov 2020 #21
It's not accurate to describe vote switching as "theoretically possible". Goodheart Nov 2020 #22
I think Turin_C3PO Nov 2020 #24
I certainly agree with that. But if somebody's devious enough to suppress votes Goodheart Nov 2020 #26
That Is Awfully Cute, Sir The Magistrate Nov 2020 #28
It's "non sequitur", and, yes, he/she committed one. Goodheart Nov 2020 #30
Oooh --- 'fallacious' The Magistrate Nov 2020 #31
I was pleased on my return to Texas carpetbagger Nov 2020 #23
That should be the practice EVERYWHERE. Goodheart Nov 2020 #25

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
12. +1 So much ratfuckery at every level needs to be stopped.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:28 PM
Nov 2020

No reform will succeed, though, until we unpack SCROTUS. Need to ad 4 justices before doing anything else. SCROTUS will stop everything President Biden and Congress do, until they are stopped. No COVID relief, no election reform, no justice for Trump and his cronies, nor for George Floyd. We will accomplish NOTHING without unpacking SCROTUS first.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
2. While I understand your point, I am against releasing vote machine coding to the public.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:22 PM
Nov 2020

I don't want the public or any foreign countries to be able to get the code. They could potentially find some bugs and exploit it. So I think it's within our national security to keep it private.

Though, I believe they should let each campaign to send a team of engineers to check the code to make sure they are on the up and up.

Wounded Bear

(58,440 posts)
3. Valid point, but it needs oversight by gov't engineers...
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:24 PM
Nov 2020

leaving it company proprietary is just too dicey for voting.

Better yet, all electronic should be banned by law. Without a paper ballot, no valid audit is possible.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
8. I would have believe government engineers before Trump era.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:28 PM
Nov 2020

But I no longer believe them, at least under Trump.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
6. I believe that voting machine software in Australia is publicly inspectable.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:26 PM
Nov 2020

Aside from that, if the major function of the voting machine was to accept input from the voter then print out an actual ballot to be collected then counted, as the official vote, any hack that would have caused the machine totals to deviate from the paper totals would be quickly discovered and remedied.

Claustrum

(4,845 posts)
16. I am not just worrying about changing actual votes.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:30 PM
Nov 2020

What if they find a way to shut down the machine and target a few states? That could be disastrous too. It might work in Australia because it's a government control system. We have a state/district control voting system and everyone has their own rules. It could be disastrous.

PJMcK

(21,921 posts)
27. Get rid of the electronic machines!
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:52 PM
Nov 2020

Paper ballots are perfectly sound and they create a... wait for it... a paper trail that can be verified in the event of a contested election.

There's no need for receipts or online verifications.

There are some things that do not need to be converted into electrons.

hunter

(38,264 posts)
29. There is no need for electronic voting machines...
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 01:02 PM
Nov 2020

...and no way to fix them.

Any competent software engineer will tell you so.

https://xkcd.com/2030/

I don't quite know how to put this, but our entire field is bad at what we do, and if you rely on us you will die...

There is no compelling reason not to use hand marked paper ballots.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
9. And, by the way, if the machine code, itself, is programmed to switch every 10th vote from
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:28 PM
Nov 2020

one candidate to another then nothing needs to be hacked. The harm has already been done.

duhneece

(4,105 posts)
10. The whole nation needs voter-verified paper ballots
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:28 PM
Nov 2020

These are auditable, able to ascertain the voters’ intent. I helped fight for this in New Mexico after Kerry ‘lost’

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
17. There's been no proof
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:31 PM
Nov 2020

that votes have been hacked and switched. If they were, the blue wave of 2018 wouldn’t have happened. Obama wouldn’t have won two terms. Plus, no prominent Democratic lawmakers have ever claimed fraud. If they thought it was a problem, you can bet they’d be on the news yelling about it.

I‘m not saying that hacking is not theoretically possible but it hasn’t happened so far.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
18. Your post is a classic non sequitur.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:33 PM
Nov 2020

And, by the way, you're making deceit in the future all the easier.

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
19. "I"
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:36 PM
Nov 2020

am not doing anything. I have no power. Of course the people who run the machines should always strive to protect against hacking. But there’s no point in getting worked up about something that hasn’t happened yet.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
20. You have no way of knowing whether it's happened or not.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:42 PM
Nov 2020

And by merely accepting on faith that everything's always been OK so it means everything will be OK going forward means you've made it easier to be deceived.

A classic con game: earn the trust of your victim then when the stakes are really big pull the scam.

Want to know how easy it would be to manipulate a vote within the machine I described? Here you go:

- Accept input from Voter number N.
- If N is evenly divisible by 5 switch vote from column A to Column B.


It's as easy as that. And you wouldn't know it happened to you because the software is not made public.

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
21. I said I'm for
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:45 PM
Nov 2020

election security. But until there’s evidence that vote switching has occurred, I’m not going to lose sleep over a theoretical situation.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
22. It's not accurate to describe vote switching as "theoretically possible".
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:47 PM
Nov 2020

It's ACTUALLY possible.

And given the dishonesty of many people, and the ease with which it could be done, it borders on the probable.

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
24. I think
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:49 PM
Nov 2020

the main problem we face is voter suppression. That’s what’s costing us votes in many states.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
26. I certainly agree with that. But if somebody's devious enough to suppress votes
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:51 PM
Nov 2020

it's only a small step for him to manipulate them.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
28. That Is Awfully Cute, Sir
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:55 PM
Nov 2020

It is amusing when people treat the names of logical fallacies as if they were words of power which, if chanted, dispel opposition.

You were not replied to with a non sequiter. You were replied to with a citation of evidence against your proposition.

Replies like 'but destruction of paper ballots is more common', or 'but honest people do the work' might pass for a non sequiter, though the first only barely.

However, your initial comment is certainly 'begging the question'. You start by stating as axiomatic fact what you need to prove, and then proceed to use that statement to interpret evidence you claim proves what you've already stated as fact. That is not how it works. You have to draw the conclusion from the evidence, and accept going in that the evidence might not support the view you began with.

Goodheart

(5,264 posts)
30. It's "non sequitur", and, yes, he/she committed one.
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 01:12 PM
Nov 2020

It does not follow that there were no voting improprieties because Obama won.

He, of course, is entitled to his/her OPINION.

And, no, I didn't "beg the question." I have not once asserted that votes have been hacked or manipulated, only that the machines easily allow for it.

Go back to school because your entire post is fallacious.

carpetbagger

(4,384 posts)
23. I was pleased on my return to Texas
Mon Nov 2, 2020, 12:49 PM
Nov 2020

When I left after 2006 we had the traceless computer. Now we have a computer that generates a ticket that is the countable item.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»We seem to have forgotten...