Let it sink.

[denem]

Last edited Tue Jan 10, 2012, 01:24 PM - Edit history (2)

The extraordinary prevalence of sexual violence in the United States gets little attention.
See the CDC study of sexual violence in the United States:
http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

Rape

Nearly 1 in 5 women in the United States has been raped in her lifetime (18.3%)... This translates to almost 22 million women in the United States.
Approximately 1 in 71 men in the United States (1.4%) reported having been raped in his lifetime, which translates to almost 1.6 million men in the United States

Sexual Violence Other than Rape

Nearly 1 in 2 women (44.6%) and 1 in 5 men (22.2%) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape at some point in their lives. This equates to more than 53 million women and more than 25 million men in the United States. Approximately 1 in 20 women (5.6%) and men (5.3%) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.

Incidence

51% of women were raped by their current or former intimate partner, 12.5% by a family members

[dawg]

1. I can't help but wonder, if 1 in 5 women are raped ...

then what percentage of men are rapists? I would assume that it would be much less than 1 in 5 (more like 1 in 20?), and that the rapists would make up the difference by raping multiple victims, but still the number would have to be uncomfortably high.

[denem]

3. If it's your intimate partner over the years, that would be one.

[dawg]

10. I guess that probably does happen a lot.

It's frightening to think how many men must be capable of this. And I would think that lots of rapes like you mention would go unreported, which would make the true number even worse.

[Major Nikon]

101. Those numbers were the result of a survey

The number of reported rapes is much lower and the conviction rate is much lower still.

[RC]

7. Rape is not always rape. It is just lumped together.

Statutory rape(17 yo girl and 18 yo boy). Consensual sex turns to rape when 3rd person finds out or the woman finds our she is pregnant.
Woman get mad at lover for something non-related to the sex. Revenge.
There are all kind of reasons to spike the numbers.

[seabeyond]

22. didnt the FBI only just start adding younger kids and males? nt

[Scootaloo]

39. Oh, look, a MRA argument

"Women make up rape accusations to get revenge, or to excuse her pregnancy!"

Jesus fucking christ, do you sleep at night?

[joeglow3]

53. I had a friend in PRISON for this

You see, he had sex with a girl and her friend. Dad found out and was so disgusted that his precious daughter not only had sex, but had a threesome with another girl that he flipped out. The daughter freaked out and convinced her friend to say they were raped. With 2 people willing to testify, he lost and went to jail. Fortunately, it only took the friend a month or so until the guilt drove her come forward with the truth.

Thus, it DOES happen and I sleep just fucking fine at night. I don't think I could if I was so quick to shit down people's throats though.

[Scootaloo]

65. Well, of course you do

So does everyone that argues that rape is often falsified for personal gain. In fact, from the tell of it, our jails are just crammed full of unfortunate, innocent men suffering the snipish vendettas of "unsatisfied lovers" or "bitchy girlfriends."

'Cause you know, our society is so accepting and care-giving towards rape victims. And our courts are ALWAYS ready to give them the weight of credibility. Rape accusation is practically a cottage industry. Just like Child support!
[img][/img]

[Charlemagne]

72. My goodness

Hyperbole much?!?!

No one is saying that all or a majority of rape accusations are made up by people looking for revenge. No one is saying that all or a majority of rape accusations are fake. No one is saying that we should ignore rape because someone somewhere may make it up for revenge.

It does happen though. It has happened.

Again, no one is trying to discredit rape victims or downplay the crime. However you are treating the discussion like they are.

Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case

It happens.

Please, everyone, lets try to have a civil discussion without accusing someone of being an apologist for rapists if they type something other than "hang everyone accused."

[Scootaloo]

78. Ah yes. The Duke Lacrosse team Case

Amazing thing about that case, is that it's also often cited as an example of how bad white people have it in this nation. it must be refreshing to finally have evidence of how truly oppressed straight white men are, I guess.

The poster I responded to claimed the rape statistics were "spiked" and claimed this was done by false allegations of rape.

There's really no easy way for you to wriggle around that for him. Aside from, of course, the anecdote of your friend.

Amazingly enough, I have a friend who was raped, told she deserved it, and was intimidated out of reporting the rape. I guess she was just upset that she didn't get off, though, right?

[Charlemagne]

81. What the hell?

"Amazing thing about that case, is that it's also often cited as an example of how bad white people have it in this nation. it must be refreshing to finally have evidence of how truly oppressed straight white men are, I guess. "

What does that have to do with anything. You said provide an example of X. So I gave an example of X. Then you say that it doesnt count because it includes white people?!?!


"The poster I responded to claimed the rape statistics were "spiked" and claimed this was done by false allegations of rape. "

The poster said that things like statutory rape, in which both are willing partners, shouldn't be included in instances of forceful rape.

"There's really no easy way for you to wriggle around that for him. Aside from, of course, the anecdote of your friend. "

What anecdote from my friend? I never posted anything about a friend. This makes no sense.


"Amazingly enough, I have a friend who was raped, told she deserved it, and was intimidated out of reporting the rape. I guess she was just upset that she didn't get off, though, right?"

So then you provide an anecdote from your friend???? Yes, your friend clearly deserved to be raped. That is exactly that I am saying. literally. She was only upset she didnt get off, thats why she made that up. Yep, thats what I am saying. That is sarcasm if you didnt know.

or

maybe

I am saying that when a 17 year old has consensual sex with a 19 year old it should count as rape in the same way as sex being forced on someone. But the statistics say it is the same. But instead of addressing that, you just say that I approve of rape and think that all women either 1. deserve it or 2. lie about it.

Awesome.

[seabeyond]

82. it is merely a means of diverting. fbi says UNDER 5% are false. they say 30-70% are NOT reported

sodemy, child rape, male rape are not in rape numbers until just recently. across the nation police are "creatively" filing rapes so they are not going in FBI numbers.

how about if we dont divert the conversation. it is a ploy that SOME men use regularly and consistently because they cant talk about a damn issue that has to do with girls/women in our nation.

[Scootaloo]

110. Just pointing out that it's a perfect storm of "Oppression of the privileged"

And I've seen it used to justify not only the argument that rape is fake, but also that black people are oppressing white people, and that the poor have it out for the wealthy, and that all suits are frivilous...

I didn't say it doesn't count. I was just noting that I've seen this case swung around like a dead cat to cover a broad variety of people whining about how it proves that wealthy white heterosexual men are downtrodden and in need of liberation. Even though the court easily ruled in their favor.

The poster also brought up the notion that women regularly falsify rape accusations. I know you can't clutter your beautiful mind with that fact, but it's right there, in his post. And you're coming to the defense of that by championing the poster while ignoring hte presence of such statements.

And you're right, you didn't mention an anecdote about your friend, I had you confused with one of the other posters.

[Charlemagne]

112. I know you can't clutter your beautiful mind with that fact

[joeglow3]

113. Actually, you are now making shit up to justify your irrationality

The poster said rape is not always rape and gave some examples, including:

1. Statutory rape(17 yo girl and 18 yo boy).
2 & 3. Consensual sex turns to rape when 3rd person finds out or the woman finds our she is pregnant.
4. Woman get mad at lover for something non-related to the sex.
5. Revenge.

NOWHERE did the poster use the word "regularly."

Your response was then an arrogant "Jesus fucking christ, do you sleep at night?"

I then replied that it is a valid point and cited a personal example of someone whose life was destroyed.

This only served to piss you off more.

The discussion is not of existence, but frequency. However, it is clear you would much rather shout out ANY discussion just want everyone fall in line behind you. Those that don't will get your wrath.

Like I said, good thing we are both comfortable with the fact that we are not the other.

[Scootaloo]

121. Regularly enough to "spike the numbers" though, apparently

Negligible numbers don't cause statistical "spikes." The poster's point is clear enough.

Your instinct is to rush out to defend him with an anecdote that "proves him right." And of course, everyone, and I mean literally everyone who tries to defend this position has the same motherfucking anecdote. "I have a buddy whose life was ruined by a bitch faking rape!"

I'm left to wonder, maybe it's the same guy, and he just has a lot of friends on twitter, or something?

You might think it's "arrogant" to condemn someone for claiming that rape statistics are gratuitously padded by "fake rape," but the fact is, these sort of claims are what leads to the chronic underreporting of rape. It's what leads to Rapists getting away with it. Now i'm sure that's not the poster's intention, or yours, but at the very least, you should realize what that sort of dumbassed thetoric contributes to.

"Oh, she's faking it" is the mentality that led Sarah Palin's Wasilla to bill victims of rape for the rape kits used. it presumes the fault lies with htewoman, that either she's "making it up" or "she asked for it."

A little goddamned awareness, is it too much to ask?

[Starry Messenger]

80. omg.

Picture love. <3

[joeglow3]

91. Like I said, we are lucky.

I clearly could not sleep in your shoes, so good thing we are each who we are.

[Charlemagne]

73. Yes that is what the poster said

All instances of rape are false. (sarcasm)

Seriously?!?!? That is clearly not the intention of the poster. We all know it. Please dont try to paint it differently.

[Scootaloo]

77. "There are all sorts of reasons to spike the numbers"

Paired with a post that is mostly claiming false allegations of rape.

Yes. That is what the poster is saying.

[Charlemagne]

79. Right

If a college freshman has relations his/her gf in high school, it is rape under the law (statutory). However, they are probably in love and all that. It doesnt meet the standard of 'forceful sexual encounter' that most of society uses. I believe the poster is saying that we need to focus on forceful sexual encounters and look at those numbers instead of including times where two teens got caught in a parking lot...and bother were willing.

I am a male. In high school I dated college girls. The two gfs I "knew" were 19 while I was 17. Is that technically rape? it depends on what state you are in. So should I claim to be a rape victim if, by the numbers, I am counted as a rape victim?

That is what the poster is saying. This conversation isnt going to go anywhere, I can sense it. Im out. Peace.

[seabeyond]

83. give it a fuckin break. such an extreme it is ridiculous to hold it up to dismiss rape concern.

dontcha think.

[Dorian Gray]

87. No

that is technically not rape. 1) I think the vast majority of states, the age of consent is 16. And 2) Even when the age of consent is 17 (in which is still would not be rape) or 18 (in which it would be rape), they distinguish among the age of the perpetrator.

[chrisa]

94. That almost never happens. The only thing I could find in favor

of that statement was a whiny Fox News article written by a male, which is about as reliable as trying to get answers from a magic 8 ball.

The truth is, false reporting is mostly either debunked right away, or puts a very small (sliver) dent in rape instances. They hardly "spike" the numbers at all.

In fact, the numbers are too low as it is - a small percentage of rapes are actually reported.

[seabeyond]

13. different studies of college men would rape if they thought they could get away with it, 43%-60%

it is an issue.

[dawg]

26. I can't believe that it could really be that high.

That's one of the worst things you can do to a person. Surely some of those studies are over-estimating or distorting the responses in some way.

(I don't doubt that there are a large number of men with this attitude, but I would hate to think more than 20% really feel that way.)

[seabeyond]

29. i dont know the number of college males that describe rape yet when asked if raped, they said no.

16%, 12%? can't remember. someone will have the numbers.

[tabasco]

62. You're making the claims.

Why don't you have the numbers?

[redqueen]

38. It's the "but it's not rape if" situation.

Get a woman blackout drunk and it's game on. That's not rape, right? Cause if a man was drunk and he had sex he wouldn't be upset, right?

This is the logic used by those who set out to take advantage of women. And them blame them, because they shouldn't have gotten that drunk if they didn't want to be raped.

Also there is the view that date rape isn't "rape rape".

There are many rationalizations, I'm sure. And many people who absolutely do not think it's the worst thing you can do to a person. Many people seriously do subscribe to the 'it's only sex' line of thinking.

[denem]

42. It's rape under the CDC definition.

Where's the consent. That something so obvious has to be qualified as "date rape" says a lot all by itself

[redqueen]

48. Yes, it is.

And yes, it is tragic that we have such a thing as 'date rape'. Rape is rape. But traditionally, people haven't seen it that way. Society is changing.

I think the 'way it has always been' is a large part of the reason people who were raped usually will not talk about it or tell anyone.

[dawg]

44. I didn't do the whole college-boy frat-party thing.

That whole culture is alien to me.

But from where I stand, there is a huge difference between a drunk girl who wants to have sex and a drunk girl who doesn't know what is going on. I have always heard that terrible things happened to the girls who got too drunk at those parties.

[redqueen]

50. Bad things can happen to women who get too drunk in public full stop.

In clubs, at home, and at parties of all kinds, not just frat parties.

[seabeyond]

56. or less than one drink, with a drug added. women have to get the drink, hold the drink

never put the drink down. best to get a bottle so you can open. read one where a bartender was adding the drug

yup....

[Charlemagne]

74. you from

the UK?

[aquart]

40. One guy who isn't put in jail can have a very busy life.

Believe me.

[Remember Me]

67. and very few of them are put in jail

Thanks for adding this.

I want to add that experts in the field say that basically, all rapists are serial rapists.

[maggiesfarmer]

60. if that's true society's fucked.

i don't know what else to say.

[Dorian Gray]

90. Do you have a study

to back that up? Because that seems like a really high number, seabeyond.

[DevonRex]

23. I know a guy who

raped 2 girls before he was 16. That's just the 2 I know about. No telling how many more he raped. IOW there are lots and lots of repeat offenders.

[redqueen]

28. I think a lot of men don't realize they're rapists.

I've seen people on DU state that a man can just accidentally rape someone, because they got their signals mixed up. Elsewhere I've often see the claim that men can accidentally rape because they were overly excited, or whatever else.

I'm not sure which study it was that presented over a hundred college graduates (not college-age men) with a questionnaire, asking if they'd engaged in any of a list of behaviors. None were outright labeled as rape, but they were examples of rape. Many more men admitted to it than you would expect (if you weren't already familiar with rape culture and all it's loveliness).

[dawg]

41. I don't see much gray here.

What kind of questions are they answering "yes"?

I don't see how someone could be a rapist and not realize it, at least on some level.

[redqueen]

46. Maybe on some level, they do realize it.

Here's a link to a blog post about the study.
http://jezebel.com/5404064/rapists-admit-repeated-crimes--as-long-as-you-dont-call-it-rape

Going from memory here, but I believe there is one unsourced claim in that post. Or maybe the original study wasn't linked. I'm not sure. The study is what it is, though. It was fairly widely discussed when it came out IIRC.

[dawg]

51. Thanks for the link.

The linked article indicated that 6% of the men answered yes to at least one of the questions, and considering the nature of the questions given, even 6% is a pretty damning number.

[redqueen]

54. My pleasure (nt)

[aquart]

43. Accidental? No.

But many many women give in when NO isn't working and it's someone they know and it doesn't seem worth making a fuss.

The giving in rather than fighting to the bitter end allows the man to consider himself a merely successful seducer.

[redqueen]

47. Yes, exactly.

They don't want to get beat up. They say no, they may cry... but like you said, it's a friend, or a loved one. It's a very psychologically damaging and complicated situation.

[RC]

2. The US is a very prudish, intolerant, violent nation.

That fuels most of the rapes and other sexual violence.
We jail people for years for what are not crimes in other countries.

[seabeyond]

17. sweden and france both have a higher number of unreported rape because

it is more, boys just being boys, patriarchy. (edit to correct, in france anyway. sweden seems to be working on violence against female issue. but it is still there)

i dont know that i agree, totally.

[Atypical Liberal]

4. I find this number staggering.

My wife's grandmother was raped, her mother was raped, my wife was raped, both our daughters were raped.

I wonder if this changes by demographic, Because I only know two people who were victims of any kind of violent crime, one was murdered, and the other was molested as a toddler.

But practically every woman in your immediate family was raped.

How can this be?

[roguevalley]

5. oh sweet god. Your family, I wish them peace. ANd the attackers? Something a lot less.

[denem]

9. With the exception of my grandmother, all were raped at Middle or Senior High.

Today's DNA matching could have allowed them to take action in a supportive environment.

[seabeyond]

24. not many women share.... three women. three rapes. one was never raped

my friend, young niece and i on the porch. i asked..... who has been raped.

all these years knowing these gals and we never talked about it.

it isnt discussed

[denem]

31. My wife only found out one of daughters was raped years later.

The other rapist was convicted and spent a decade or two in jail. It took countless appeals to keep him there.

[seabeyond]

33. ya.

and not a casual ya. a ya, that is it.

[cally]

35. I suspect you know many others who have been raped but have not been told

I've recently learned a lifelong friend had been severely abused as a child and I never knew although I did wonder why she never wanted us to go to her house as a child. I've been in many discussions with groups of women where many have indicated they were raped. It's somewhat shocking to learn how many there are but the discussion rarely comes up.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. Do you understand how averages work? n/t

[roguevalley]

6. I find it possible to hate both. One feeds the other a lot of the time.

This country needs a slap in the face. Hard.

[denem]

12. Both are symptomatic of a deeper ills, IMO

and everything feeds off power and capitalism.

[roguevalley]

58. agreed completely

[Rex]

8. Well prostitution and slavery do go hand-in-hand.

I am speaking of the highly illegal, global 'flesh' trade. It is a global crisis that swallows up young girls and turns them into sex machines with no identity or voice. Most end up (if not sold off to a buyer) in a shallow ditch.

Porno...that is a shade of grey imo...prostitution not so much.

[seabeyond]

27. and boys. that market is escalating. i read i think just yesterday. nt

[Rex]

30. Yes, I see there is a term for it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism

[seabeyond]

11. denem. an excellent post. thank you. you said it all. nt

[denem]

16. Thank you.

[MattBaggins]

14. You know what's more disgusting

The men on DU who talk about prostitution as nothing more than a financial transaction for a "service".

[seabeyond]

32. especially when it goes hand in hand with sex slaves, CHILD sex slaves. those people are dismissed

casually, without thought. i cannot imagine anyone so easily dismissing a life of slavery.

slavery

does that word not even penetrate the brain?

[Charlemagne]

76. Indeed

they clearly support child sex slavery. That is exactly that they mean.

[seabeyond]

84. yes... the dismissiveness of the issue is exactly what "they" mean.

you do it, and not well, thru out this thread.

[Charlemagne]

86. Yep im trying to dismiss

rape because I hate womens rights. Im busted.

[seabeyond]

89. it is clear. why? that is your own. nt

[denem]

34. The people who don't know, what they don't know are more scary than disgusting. IMHO.

[snooper2]

15. If you videotape yourself and nobody sees it is it still porn?

LOL

[denem]

19. WTF does this have to do with the everyday prevalence of sexual violence.

LOL - huh, do you have no idea why feminists get distressed by facile dross.

[Whisp]

21. hardy friggen har har

you have something missing... truly. after this sad OP you think this is funny?

[snooper2]

107. What does the OP have to do with my basic question?

[Ms. Toad]

45. I hope you will consider self deletion.

As a rape survivor, I find it very troubling to run across this "joke" in a discussion of the pervasive problem of violence against women.

Pornography is very much part of the training ground for rape - images of men dominating women, women being fed in to mead grinders, women wearing dog collars and chains - all reinforce the myth that women want to be raped.

I am not condemning all sexually explicit imagery - but the large portion of the pornography genre which has as it its premise domination of men over women - and the degradation of women by men - contributes to an atmosphere in which far too many men convince themselves that "no" doesn't always mean "no."

[seabeyond]

57. not to mention the ever popular gang rape porn. you are right

what you say about the dominance issue in porn. but for our kids today, it goes well beyond that.

[Occulus]

59. "videotape yourself"

Do you realize how utterly foolish you just made yourselves look?

[seabeyond]

61. wtf?

[Shaktimaan]

63. Training ground for rape?

I have heard this accusation posited a lot, and discussed it with a lot of my friends. Female friends, female journalists, rape and sexual abuse survivors, male friends, etc. We all take rape very seriously.

That said a huge gulf remains between the areas of fantasy and reality and most everyone I know of has no trouble differentiating between the two. Women can and do have rape fantasies just like men do and there is nothing wrong with this. Most importantly though, studies on this subject support the conclusion that exposure to pornography does not lead to violence against women.

[Ms. Toad]

64. It is not the fantasy aspect

It is the desensitization to violence and degradation of women that comes from the pervasive continuum of media images spanning from advertising to graphic pornography that all send the message that rape and violence are part of the "normal" interaction between men and women. Pornography is just the extreme end of the continuum.

FWIW, I spent about 15 years very intensively involved in not only rape crisis work, but also in community education about violence against women, including the continuum of how women are portrayed from mainstream to pornography. The images I referenced are from pornography that was part of our presentation - and each had a mainstream counterpart that gave the same message and was strikingly similar when portrayed side by side.

[Shaktimaan]

66. But isn't there a disconnect?

I have not worked for 15 years in the rape crisis field, but I have done similar work and have discussed this at length with feminists of all sorts, most constructively with my current girlfriend, who has done extensive work with rape victims and even founded an NGO funded group to support victims of domestic violence in Chile. (Side note: I am not trying to do a one-upmanship thing regarding qualifications here. Merely trying to demonstrate that I take the issue seriously and am fairly well-versed in the issues at hand.)

At the end of the day, IS there a connection between porn and violence though? Do people truly become desensitized to violence against women by virtue of violence consumed in popular culture, re: video games, advertising, regular movies, porn, etc.? Most pornography isn't based around violence against women, though I'll grant that a lot of it is centered on domination and features a prominent lack of respect for women. But how much of that translates into actual violence? And is there any evidence that it "normalizes" misogyny in the real world?

[Remember Me]

68. OMG

Forgive me, but I can't believe the naivete of your questions.

What do you think dominance is all about, for example? I'm not referring to mutually S&M here, but the principle of dominance. It's about the potential to rain violence upon whoever if subordinate. Else what good is it? That's what the bottom line is -- the ability to FORCE one's will on someone, or the threat of the force often buys their "willing" compliance.

I'll grant that a lot of it is centered on domination and features a prominent lack of respect for women.

Please, listen to yourself. "Dominance," "lack of respect" -- what is the natural and normal and utterly predictable outcome or result from those attitudes?

I have to go, but I STRONGLY encourage you to dig a little deeper with what you think you know

And is there any evidence that it "normalizes" misogyny in the real world?

Absolutely, because it IS misogyny.

[Shaktimaan]

70. You are forgiven.

I'm not sure you're fully understanding my point here. I understand why you see elements in pornography that are reminiscent of real-world abuses. My question is whether causality truly exists.

There's frequently a disconnect between correlations that we experience all the time (and this is a prime example), and automatically assume that one is therefore dependent on the other. But the existence of a correlation does not in any way indicate causality.

I think that this is such an important issue because it has far reaching implications. If porn can be shown in any way to have had a direct influence on the number, brutality or normalization of rape within our society then we have an obligation to act on it. Some think we should act even if a link hast been definitively proven. But then what are the implications for other kinds of media? What about video games or violent R-rated movies? Some politicians think these things influenced the kids at Columbine. Almost all experts on the matter disagree on that point. But I'm getting a bit off topic here. My point is just that barring extensive data, how would we know where to draw a line? Can art that criticizes Christianity be linked to church bombing? Probably not but once we open that door what is to keep anyone from using it to bar any kind of "speech" they dislike.

So when I ask if there is any link between porn and rape I am talking about legitimate studies that demonstrate direct causality. This subject certainly HAS been studied. And to my knowledge there hasn't been any evidence to suggest that porn and violence against women are linked.

"Dominance," "lack of respect" -- what is the natural and normal and utterly predictable outcome or result from those attitudes?

I have no idea. Do you? How? What are you basing it on other than subjective hypothesizing? Some of the most liberal, pro-feminist cultures on the planet are also very lenient regarding porn. Look at The Netherlands or Germany for example. Personally, I think that normalizing feminist ideals comes from areas of society far more influential than movies or advertising. Look to social ideology, religion, stuff like that and you'll probably get a better indicator of how any given society treats women.

Arab states have very little porn or porn-ish advertising. But they also have a great deal of misogyny. I truly think that the liberalization of any society will include subjects as diverse as feminism AND porn. Because ultimately their existence requires the tolerance of ideologies that may run counter to our own. It is when we can allow alternative ideologies to exist that liberalism begins to flourish.

[Remember Me]

122. Okay I have a LOT to talk with you about, but first a couple of questions

First, though, I'm not appreciating your supercilious attitude. It's uncalled for, and frankly could be interpreted as sexist.

I'm not sure you're fully understanding my point here. I understand why you see elements in pornography that are reminiscent of real-world abuses. My question is whether causality truly exists.

... I think that this is such an important issue because it has far reaching implications. If porn can be shown in any way to have had a direct influence on the number, brutality or normalization of rape within our society then we have an obligation to act on it.

... So when I ask if there is any link between porn and rape I am talking about legitimate studies that demonstrate direct causality. This subject certainly HAS been studied. And to my knowledge there hasn't been any evidence to suggest that porn and violence against women are linked.

Okay, before I go any further, I'd like to know what "act on it" means in your mind? What would that entail? What are the options? If such harm as you describe is or has been found, what exactly do you think we should we do about it?

[Ms. Toad]

71. Some of pornography is actual physical violence

The meat grinder of Hustler fame I mentioned in my first post being one of the primary examples. Most is based on domination - a main theme in pornography - and rape is usually a lot more about anger and domination than it is about violence, most of the time. In the 10 years I spent holding survivor's hands in the hospital in the aftermath of rape, an average of once a week, I remember only two women who were severely injured - the rest were raped without significant physical force (or use - rather than threat - of a weapon) involved.

And, there is no sharp line between pornography, advertising, and the portrayal of women (and the relationships between men and women) in the media - which was the dominant theme of the show we created based on images taken from pornography, advertising, and popular TV, movies, etc. Virtually every image we found in pornography showing dominance, submission, disrespect, etc. was matched by virtually identical images in mainstream culture.

It has been a while since I did the research - so I don't have it easily on hand- but some of the challenge in demonstrating a link is the lack of a clear dividing line. If mainstream portrayal of women and their relationship to men leads naturally into more express, but not grossly more express, versions in pornography it is hard to distinguish precisely what was caused by the background noise v. what was caused by the more explicit porn. Looking at it from the back end, though, I recall a clear correlation that men who raped tended to be heavy users of pornogaphy. Correlation isn't causation - but often when there's smoke there's fire.

Against Our Will (Susan Brownmiller), and Men on Rape (Timothy Beneke) good, resources - more persuasive than definitive since they are out of date in terms of research. I don't remember whether Men on Rape expressly addresses pornography - but it is an extremely valuable series of personal reflections of men on rape.

[Shaktimaan]

75. I don't know.

I certainly believe that most rapists tend to be heavy users of pornography, but I have a lot of trouble making that leap of faith that the one has influenced the other in some way without tangible evidence. The fact is that MOST men are users of pornography. That doesn't mean we have been desensitized to rape any more than violent movies have desensitized us to killing others.

I think I better articulated myself here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=145946

I think there is a simple reason that dominance plays such a large role in porn. Many men are turned on by it. I don't see this to be problematic, in and of itself. As I said before, there is a big difference between fantasy and reality for most people.

[seabeyond]

88. of course you dont see it as problematic, you defend. you excuse. you dismiss. that is clear. nt

[Shaktimaan]

93. Huh?

What are you even criticizing? I question that causality exists between porn and violence towards women.
I certainly don't defend, excuse or dismiss.

[seabeyond]

96. thru out this thread, that is ALL you have done. nt

[Shaktimaan]

99. OK.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
The fact of the matter is that there is no research to support your assertion that sex and violence in media make us more sexual or violent in real life. None.

Now you can get mad at me for saying it if you like. But that doesn't make it any less true.

[seabeyond]

100. dismiss. i am dismissing you. that is different from getting mad. your posts have a designed goal

we see it so damn often, it is obvious to most all. there is nothing subtle about you intent.

[Shaktimaan]

102. really?

and what, pray tell, might that goal be?

[Ms. Toad]

92. You have just articulated the reason for most rape

Most men are turned on by dominance. They aren't out for sexual gratification, per se - which is the reason the chatter about skimpy clothing being responsible for rape is nonsense. Most rapists get a sexual kick from domination, so the motivation is domination (degradation, etc.) - and pornography (as well as the domination images from pornography which have filtered down into the rest of media) reinforce the rationalization that it is just part of how men and women interact.

And I have never suggested banning pornography, by the way. But I do think people need to be educated about the themes in pornography - about how they have filtered into mainstream media - because the rape imagery we are constantly exposed to (more explicit in porn) it is just background noise to most people. The focus of the work I have done is on giving a recognizable voice to the noise. An explicit message that is recognized and can be rejected is much less dangerous than the steady drone that just becomes part of the fabric of who you are - and increases the risk that the line between fantasy and reality is no longer recognizable.

[marions ghost]

105. For men who rape

the difference between fantasy and reality becomes blurred.

[seabeyond]

85. are you really asking what we see effects us? fox news. how do you think it effects those that

watch

millions and billions spent on commercials. why?

peers with kids

of course what we see effects us.

[Shaktimaan]

95. I really don't think so.

At least not in any significant way, as in promulgating instances of rape. Academic studies testing these links have always come up short.

Regarding advertising, it is a well known adage that sex does NOT sell. And violent imagery in advertising often isn't meant to promote ACTUAL violence against women in any way. Take this poster for example...

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/movies/ThisFilmIsNotYetRatedMoviePosterTrailerWayneKramerAllisonAndersDavidAnsenDarrenAronofsk.php

This is being used to symbolize metaphorical violence being done to filmmakers by the MPAA. I caught a lot of flak for this poster. Usually by people who had not seen the male version that we also executed.

Now why in the world would anyone want to spend millions of dollars to increase the likelihood of rape?

[seabeyond]

97. what a hoot.... nt

[redqueen]

18. IMO they are all inextricably linked. The idea that women's bodies are things.

To be bought and sold, used, commodified, etc.

All of this plays a part in the dehumanization of women, and dehumanization is ... well I think those that know, know, and those that disagree won't ever be convinced.

[denem]

25. That's Capitalism - and that's the point.

If you want to talk about sexual abuse in homes and families, you are really talking about Patriarchy - linked to Capitalism, but not synonymous.

[redqueen]

36. The way I see it, we all agree that rape is wrong.

We all agree that sexual abuse in homes and families is wrong (or wherever else it happens).

However these normalized things that send the idea that bodies are things, those we don't all agree about, so that's what I gravitate toward discussing.

IMO it is that normalization that is causing the sex tourism and other things to increase. Societally we are encouraged to think of it as ok to see human beings as things.

I don't gravitate to it because it's a hot button issue, but because it is on the areas where we disagree that I think communication is most necessary.

[Odin2005]

103. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Spazito]

20. Well said!

Recommended.

[Starry Messenger]

37. The DU feminists also have their threads derailed about the topics you raise on a regular basis.

Often by the same characters who make "casual, insensitive" remarks. I actually disagree with the thread on Prostitution, but DU feminists have a right to air their views on the subject without being told there are more important things at stake. I know you weren't trying to do that, but it could be read that way.

[denem]

49. Sorry. I was not in the least trying to trivialize feminism.

At the most basic level I was trying to express my own experience with the effects of sexual violence, and how common that can be.

As for DU discussions what I said was DU feminists were "distressed by casual, insensitive remarks, or worse". I didn't go into the contempt, ridicule or malice that's around here, in an effort to stay on topic.

[Starry Messenger]

52. Gotcha.

I agree about the effects of capitalism on the exploitation of women. I'm glad you started the OP. It can all be hard to talk about here.

[denem]

55. Thanks.

It's a pity more people here are not literate in basic marxism. An reasonable understanding of Commodity Fetishism could take much of the heat from arguments amongst well meaning individuals, Yes it's commonplace to sexualize, objectify and trade anything that's profitable, and yes it's a propensity of Capitalism that should be resisted.

Or that's how it see it.

Thanks again.

[msanthrope]

98. Thanks for mansplaining this to us...

"Mansplaining is when a dude tells you, a woman, how to do something you already know how to do, or how you are wrong about something you are actually right about, or miscellaneous and inaccurate "facts" about something you know a hell of a lot more about than he does.

Bonus points if he is explaining how you are wrong about something being sexist!

Think about the men you know. Do any of them display that delightful mixture of privilege and ignorance that leads to condescending, inaccurate explanations, delivered with the rock-solid conviction of rightness and that slimy certainty that of course he is right, because he is the man in this conversation?

That dude is a mansplainer."

http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/781085.html

[denem]

104. Slimy certainty? I quoted CDC figures, about a epidemic of sexual violence in the United States.

Your sarcasm and condescension, says a lot. Perhaps you might like to tell me from personal experience how it feels to have you partner and daughters raped.

[msanthrope]

106. Perhaps you could ask them how it feels to have their rapes used to make your porn argument.

It's not about your CDC figures...

It's about a father, and husband, using the rapes of his children and his wife to make a point on the Internet regarding prostitution and porn.

'Mansplaining' was the only word germane to what you are doing that didn't violate the TOS here.

I understand feminist DU members who are more than distressed by casual, insensitive remarks, or worse, but hot button issues are the easiest to discuss and the easies to flame. The darkness of everyday lives behind closed doors, a half empty street, or the betrayal by friends and family are more difficult.

And then, after all that, there is The Freedom from Fear.

I assure you, sir, that you do not understand feminist DUers. Feminist DUers do not use the rapes of others in such a manner.

[denem]

108. That is one of the most cold hearted things I have ever read.

Enough.

[Froward69]

109. ..!.

Turtle neck sweaters and chastity belts for everyone!!! YAY...

the violence perpetrated I believe, is a direct result of a nanny state where sex and sexuality are suppressed. terms like vagina Labia and penis are commonly subjected to becoming slang terms because society as a whole (or the greatest majority of it) is fearful of sex.

When Sharks Orgy and Dolphins rape, Humans are not that different when it comes to sex. to discount human behavior as somehow Superior and controllable is really the dumb position to take.

the other aspect is the glorification of "Beauty" in our society. not everyone can be beautiful and desirable, but everyone can have sex. the reservations and denial of sex to those who would otherwise be the best most loving person. IS what I believe to be the basis of the violence. as someone who is kept in a position of weakness will eventually TAKE the opportunity to control and dominate violently and especially sexually.

me?? once I learned to be nasty and mean towards girls. I get laid far more often than i did being "loving" AND "caring". I still Care and I still Love yet I do not wear it on my sleeve any longer... I suppress it. as once I admit I am a big softie... I get tossed over for some other asshole. <--- just the way it is I wish it were different but it ain't.

[redqueen]

111. Good thinking

Cause NOTHING is more important in life than getting your dick wet. Being a good pesron? Pfft... fuck that, what's the point, if you can't get some tail? Amiright bro?

[Froward69]

114. Evolving to procreate is what life does

to ignore that is dumb.

nice guys do indeed Finnish last.

[redqueen]

115. Pretending humans are no different, cognitively and behaviorally, than animals

is what lazy thinkers do to try to rationalize primitive behaviors.

Nice guys do not finish last. If they face a disadvantage, it is because those who promote primitive behavior are still too successful in shouting down the more evolved / civilized voices in society.

[Shaktimaan]

117. Dude, your posts are making me depressed.

Nice guys don't necessarily finish last. Doormats, sad sacks and desperadoes finish last.
I don't know any woman who actually wants to date an asshole. But they'll often take a confident asshole who challenges them over a lovesick loser who'll let her walk all over them.

edit: How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

[Froward69]

118. 42 FORMER lovesick loser

NO woman WANTS to date an Asshole... but in this society younger women ARE more attracted to them. My "assholyness" is just a persona to successfully compete... granted it goes nowhere with older more mature Women... but then again, their daughters can't seem to get enough of it.

If what Groucho said is true, "a man is only as old as the Woman he feels" then this past Birthday I was 25.

yes It may seem that I will live a lonely existence never achieving true intimacy with another. loneliness is relative when I was young I did not like to dine alone... NOW I relish it. as well as
1. unconditional Love does NOT exist in this culture.
and
2.we ALL ultimately, die alone.

Living life without fear, is true Freedom.

[Shaktimaan]

116. Wow.

So the prevalence of rape in our society is caused by a nanny state that suppresses sexuality, because we are all secretly terrified of the sex that is plastered on every television and billboard from NYC to Honolulu...

...but wait! It's really because of our animal nature. It's not the nanny state, it's the lizard brain...

...what it is REALLY caused by is the emphasis on beauty in our culture, The sheer weight that's placed on it can result in unchosen celibacy being inflicted on even the most caring, loving guy if he isn't blessed with rugged good looks. Which will then turn him into a rapist... obviously.

After all, there's only so many times even the nicest, most caring, most loving, most sensitive man in the universe can get turned down for coffee dates before he loses control entirely and morphs into a sexual predator who stalks and then violently savages women in the night. Thus satiated he returns to his prior form. It's simple biology guys. Who are we to arrogantly think we can control it? Haven't any of you seen The Hulk?

Lastly, while I can appreciate that you are trying new approaches out there, bear in mind that there are more options besides just "pathetic milquetoast" vs. "Jersey Shore Douche-on-the-Loose." It's possible to project coolness without being a dick. I mean, what do you think... the only people out there who are getting laid are misogynistic pricks and sexual predators?

[The Straight Story]

119. I have had someone wake me up by going down on me, I did not consent

as I was asleep, was it rape up to that point? If rape is so defined then I am thinking rape is about 4 in 5 of both men and women.

Don't get me wrong, rape is bad - (see my thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002149901 ) but I wonder what kind of criteria they used to define what is rape?

[Brigid]

120. If anyone wonders why . . .

The crime of rape is so notoriously difficult to prosecute, they should read this thread. This society's attitudes toward women and sexuality are a complete mess.