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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 12:15 PM Nov 2020

We underestimated the power of brainwashing

Yes, there is latent and often blatant racism behind support for Donald Trump. Yes there are fervent one issue voters, who will vote for Trump simply because he vows to overturn Roe V Wade, or because he strongly supports "gun rights." Yes there are those who will vote for Trump because they know on which side their bread is buttered, and thus advance their own narrow economic self interests. And yes there are "low information" voters who are not well educated and/or poorly informed about the issues that effect us all. Yes there are also tribalists who automatically give the advantage of the doubt to whoever is wearing their own team colors. But it is much more than all of that combined. There is brainwashing.

It is easy to be critical of those who succumb to brainwashing when you yourself can't identify with them. It is easy for me to accept that budding new racists get indoctrinated into white nationalism, for example, when I start out viewing them as being particularly vulnerable to recruitment into that toxic creed, or in other words, if I see them as inherently unlike me. But while brainwashing might be most easily effective against those who are most vulnerable to it, far fewer people than that are actually immune to it.

I have seen too many instances where people who I would characterize as being left of center fall victim to what I see as brainwashing. I moved to San Francisco in 1977, and when I first arrived there The People's Temple and its pastor Jim Jones were well regarded in liberal politics. The vision that the Peoples Temple embraced was multi-racial, multi-culteral, humanistic and avidly behind advancing social justice on every front. The Peoples Temple, for a time, was a player in Democratic local politics. Many political activists belonged to it. Many well educated and socially conscious people were drawn into it, and the sense of community and inclusion they felt inside its ranks. It was painful years later to watch video interviews with Peoples Temple members who one way or another avoided a deadly fate in Guyana. Though I did not know those people personally I still recognized them, they weren't much different than me.

There are other examples, some of them relating to those among us who suffered from the feeling of a spiritual void, ranging from those who were ensnared by the Moonies to those who became followers of this or that eventual cult leaders. There are, and have been, relatively extremist political movements on the left also dominated by central figures and bold ideological views painted in primary colors. Many of us heard of the late Lyndon LaRouche, whose movement (according to Wikipedia) "originated within the radical leftist student politics of the 1960s. In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of candidates, some with only limited knowledge or connection to LaRouche or the movement, ran as Democrats in the United States on the LaRouche platform."

Brainwashing does not just affect stupid and/or uninformed people. Once the infection begins it often spreads to ohers, much like a potential viral pandemic. The body politic in America had no built up antibodies to someone like Donald J.Trump. The last political figure in America who remotely compares to Trump in his ability to remold minds through propaganda and lies was Joseph McCarthy, and that was almost 70 years ago. Americans were not psychologically prepared by our recent political past to reject a constant thundering waterfall of lies. We knew how to respond when small lies were injected into the political discourse. Small lies can be fact checked and debunked, and those who tell them usually reacted with discomfort, and one or another form of chagrin when confronted with evidence that refuted them. America was not prepared for the introduction of Hitler's propaganda tactic, the use of the Big Lie, a totally fabricated alternative reality that defiantly proclaims itself the truth in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.

The fact that The Big Lie now originates from the highest office in the land, one that for generations Americans have come to venerate as the focal point for our democracy, allows it to permeate through many of our rational defenses against it. We have become conditioned to expect lies to be retracted by reputable figures when the evidence doesn't support them. We have been conditioned to regard any siting President of the United States to be, essentially by definition, a reputable figure. Trump was a figure given a high profile national profile for many years prior as a reality TV star. Credible news networks covered his bombastic and hate riddled campaign rallies repeatedly and in full during his "novel" 2016 campaign, supposedly for news value but in reality for ratings. Cult figures ordinarily can not win 1/100th of the exposure that our assumed to be reputable media granted to Donald Trump. And then he seized the Bully Pulpit.

The Right wing news media in America cynically broadcasts to a hermetically sealed bubble. It is a hugely profitable business that's made mega millionaires out of the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity who front for it. At this point it is essentially one and the same with the National Enquirer in regards to objective truth. This propaganda echo chamber is fully deployed now and sanctioned from on high, and it is extremely effective at what it does, unrestrained as it is from any need to convey the truth. I say all of this not to excuse any of the racists in America who have crawled out from beneath their rocks, nor to excuse those who refuse to even look at evidence of their own embedded toxic prejudices. I say this not to minimize the caustic influence of greed in America, or the glorification of selfish individualism that runs rampant in our culture. Nor do I dismiss the danger from fundamentalist religious forces that seek to sit in judgement over us all, controlling the options open to us to conform to their own concept of morality. I say this because we need to both know and understand our enemy. We are up against more than just racism and ignorance, more than intolerance and greed. We face a full blown cult of personality in America today, one that is as much psychological and cultural as it is purely political. And to combat that we need to develop more than just sensible policies and better framed talking points. We need to somehow initiate deprogramming on a mass level.

32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
We underestimated the power of brainwashing (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 OP
They can't MFM008 Nov 2020 #1
Yes they can, and they do. Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 #2
What we underestimated, was how much our tax dollars were used to keep conservative Baitball Blogger Nov 2020 #3
Sure, I agree that happened and continues to happen Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 #4
I would suggest the Democratic Party gathering the best minds in psychology and marketing... DSandra Nov 2020 #5
That is a great idea Bradshaw3 Nov 2020 #8
Maybe even people in "marketing". Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2020 #13
I graduated with a degree in Business and Marketing DSandra Nov 2020 #17
People confuse marketing and sales. Klaralven Nov 2020 #26
K&R Bradshaw3 Nov 2020 #6
That is an incredible film, one that left a major impact on me Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 #10
You're welcome Bradshaw3 Nov 2020 #11
Thank you for mentioning The Brainwashing of my Dad, Bradshaw. crickets Nov 2020 #22
Thanks, I read those Bradshaw3 Nov 2020 #31
We have good people in this country who are skilled at countering online radicalization Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 #32
Thanks, just ordered the DVD from the library. Roisin Ni Fiachra Nov 2020 #25
Promote and teach about the many Freethinkers throughout history and how it's best to be a ARPad95 Nov 2020 #7
Unfortunately, they see themselves as freethinkers... OneGrassRoot Nov 2020 #28
It's that old axiom: robbob Nov 2020 #9
Thing is it's gone way beyond Fox News. Hassin Bin Sober Nov 2020 #14
There are also the psychological aspects joe_stampingbull Nov 2020 #12
KnR Hugin Nov 2020 #15
If only mtnsnake Nov 2020 #16
I believe this is closely connected to the need to follow "a strong man." I see this.. LAS14 Nov 2020 #18
Honestly, I think your post portrays Trump supporters a victims when they are not. qdouble Nov 2020 #19
I don't think the terms "guilty" and "victims" are mutually exclusive in regards to brainwashing Tom Rinaldo Nov 2020 #20
It's not that I don't think there is some level of propaganda qdouble Nov 2020 #21
Eloquent and powerful. K&R crickets Nov 2020 #23
I dated an ex-Moonie lanlady Nov 2020 #24
I think that you can identify susceptible people by who watches the History Channel and similar Klaralven Nov 2020 #27
Ugh, yes. Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2020 #30
Some people want to be brainwashed, unfortunately. Buckeye_Democrat Nov 2020 #29

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
2. Yes they can, and they do.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 12:25 PM
Nov 2020

Have you ever watched interviews with former members of The People's Temple? I have. Some very bright and seemingly (now) insightful people were brainwashed into becoming part of that cult.

Baitball Blogger

(46,698 posts)
3. What we underestimated, was how much our tax dollars were used to keep conservative
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 12:44 PM
Nov 2020

idealism afloat in places like the military and police departments.

DSandra

(999 posts)
5. I would suggest the Democratic Party gathering the best minds in psychology and marketing...
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 12:54 PM
Nov 2020

To figure out how to deprogram these people (along with cult experts and former cult members) It’s time for Democrats to intensely study psychology to understand how the mind works for the most part because the Right Wing are experts in psychology and we have to know what they use and beat them at their game.

Bradshaw3

(7,505 posts)
8. That is a great idea
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:03 PM
Nov 2020

I used to work with neuroscientists and cognitive scientists and came to understand how much of our behavior is unconscious and how much we overestimate our cognitive abilities. This country should follow their research much more than it does, and especially now in this area. And our side has to use their work to, as you write, beat them at their own game.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,853 posts)
13. Maybe even people in "marketing".
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:37 PM
Nov 2020

This country has some of the best marketers in the world, which is often a form of untrue propaganda.

I'm not suggesting using them to be dishonest, but to counteract it.

DSandra

(999 posts)
17. I graduated with a degree in Business and Marketing
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 02:13 PM
Nov 2020

I would say that Marketing is the connection between the producer and the consumer, the marketer is like the relationship manager between both sides. The marketer promotes, but also learns and understands the needs and wants of customers in a given market. That knowledge is then used to make products and services that cater to such customers. Consumer behavior is the arm of it where marketers learn what makes people tick. A huge focus of marketing when I was studying was developing relationships with customers because it’s far cheaper and easier to maintain relationships with customers that keep on buying products from you than acquiring new customers, this a huge incentive to keep existing customers satisfied.

I never thought of what I was learning as doing propaganda, I felt like marketers were the people that “got the word out” and essentially were doing a service when they were promoting worthy products.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
26. People confuse marketing and sales.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:15 PM
Nov 2020

I think that what is being referred to is more in the Sales side of thing, rather than the product planning side of marketing.

Given that you are already making products, how do you get the customer to buy it through product packaging, product display, and the all important advertising.

Bradshaw3

(7,505 posts)
6. K&R
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 12:59 PM
Nov 2020

I have often referred people to the doc The Brainwashing of my Dad:
https://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/

In it the filmmaker traces the descent of her normal, decent, moderate father into the cult of right wing thinking after he started watching Fox and listening to Rush, etc. He not only began espousing their cant but became a nasty person. After a stroke, his family took Faux News off his screen choices and blocked websites and, guess what? After awhile he returned to the father they grew up with and loved, and ended up voting for Obama.

And yes, people on the left can become brainwashed. Much if not most of the anti-vaxxers are people with liberal beliefs otherwise. A recent study found that the anti-GMO crowd was THE most resistant to hearing facts that countered their beliefs.

You are right, we need to understand our enemy. We can agree that they are ugly and racist and most can't be reached. But we're going to have to find some way to deal with them, or our democracy is over. It may already be. I hope not.

Good thoughtful post.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
10. That is an incredible film, one that left a major impact on me
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:27 PM
Nov 2020

I can credit having watched that film as the origin of much of the thinking I express above. I too highly recommend it. Thank you for your addition to this thread, as well as your kind review.

Bradshaw3

(7,505 posts)
11. You're welcome
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:32 PM
Nov 2020

I don't know what the perfect answer is to our current situation but do think we're going to have to try to do things differently. The poster above talking about about using psychology resources is a good start. Hopefully our Democratic leaders and the scientists can come up with ways to at least reduce the ignorance and hate.

crickets

(25,959 posts)
22. Thank you for mentioning The Brainwashing of my Dad, Bradshaw.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 04:45 PM
Nov 2020

It's a good film, and an important data point in understanding how anyone potentially can be changed by relentless propaganda. You make an excellent point that the brainwashing isn't just happening on the right; I'd add that the entrenched opinion that anyone on the far right can never be reached and should be considered forever gone and forever an enemy is as dangerous in its way as the far right itself. The 'formers' are out there, and they are working for change.

The interview and the article below are quite long, but well worth the read for anyone who wants to understand more about why and how some white supremacists get caught up in the hate, and why and how they leave and try to help others get out as well.

A Former Neo-Nazi [Christian Picciolini] Explains Why Hate Drew Him In — And How He Got Out
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/578745514

Inside the Radical, Uncomfortable Movement to Reform White Supremacists
As hate groups have surged, so has the number of extremists trying to escape.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/07/reform-white-supremacists-shane-johnson-life-after-hate/

Bradshaw3

(7,505 posts)
31. Thanks, I read those
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 06:17 PM
Nov 2020

Of course those like Picciolini are on the extreme edge but the thing is this "movement" of trumpism has gone mainstream. But his history shows that if people like him can be brainwashed and then converted, then so can others. It's just dispiriting that we are in this situation. But as the NPR interview showed, his recruitment was due to lack of education and home life. Will this country ever address those issues in a comprehensive way? I don't know but we've got to do things differently because we're not headed in a good direction now.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
32. We have good people in this country who are skilled at countering online radicalization
Fri Nov 6, 2020, 10:31 AM
Nov 2020

A lot of work went into countering the efforts of ISIS to recruit new followers in western nations who had previously not viewed the world through the a jihadist lens. It of course was easier for our government to mobilize those resources against a foreign psychological threat that it has been to employ effective tactics against white nationalist groups or Qanon followers, because of the intersection with domestic politics. But there is a skill set that has been developed against online radicalization, which to a large extent has fed the proliferation of the more extreme aspects of Trumpism.

Roisin Ni Fiachra

(2,574 posts)
25. Thanks, just ordered the DVD from the library.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:12 PM
Nov 2020

I could stream it, but want it to go through the library system so more people would handle it.

ARPad95

(1,671 posts)
7. Promote and teach about the many Freethinkers throughout history and how it's best to be a
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:00 PM
Nov 2020

freethinker and not a follower. Once someone understands and realizes the damage to their loved ones and themselves that following one charismatic (and mostly malignantly narcissistic) person can lead to, they'll hopefully think twice about allowing themselves to be sucked into the crazy loon's vortex. It's the whole "if I told you to jump off a bridge, would you?" thing. "NO, I WOULD NOT!" should be the resounding answer. Also, there is no safety in numbers on a sinking ship. Stop going along to get along!

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
28. Unfortunately, they see themselves as freethinkers...
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:24 PM
Nov 2020

and, unlike us, accessing sources of "truth" we refuse to see because we follow "lamestream media" and so forth.

To them, the right-wing, full-on conspiracy theory sites ARE the truth and they are open-minded enough to "do their research" to find that truth.

That's precisely what the QAnon and pro-Trump people (same thing now) say.

robbob

(3,524 posts)
9. It's that old axiom:
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:04 PM
Nov 2020

The first thing a cult does is convince you everyone else is lying to you. “Fair and Balanced” is a slogan Orwell would appreciate.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,324 posts)
14. Thing is it's gone way beyond Fox News.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:48 PM
Nov 2020

It’s metastasized to social media. Fox will be left on the sidelines wondering how this got so far out of control.

Big business interests saw Hitler as an end to a means to control inflation and put a lid on unions. In the end they were dead or in ruins.

What started as a way for wealthy business interests to keep taxes and regulation in check has morphed into a money making scheme peddling conspiracy theories, diet supplements, and subscriptions.

This will not end well.

mtnsnake

(22,236 posts)
16. If only
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 01:55 PM
Nov 2020

your post could be made accessible to every high school senior and every college student in this country... and for that matter, any other open-minded clear thinking person as well. People need to be educated more and brainwashed less. Thanks for your awesome post, Tom.

LAS14

(13,781 posts)
18. I believe this is closely connected to the need to follow "a strong man." I see this..
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 02:15 PM
Nov 2020

... talked about more and more. A number of books have been written about this theme. We have much to learn from Nazi Germany. But I despair when what we need to do depends on education.

qdouble

(891 posts)
19. Honestly, I think your post portrays Trump supporters a victims when they are not.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 02:18 PM
Nov 2020

Conservatives simply appeal to the primal and selfish instincts that all of us have. Most Trump supporters are aware of the lies, they just think that the lies benefit them. Everything else is just motivated reasoning.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
20. I don't think the terms "guilty" and "victims" are mutually exclusive in regards to brainwashing
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 02:55 PM
Nov 2020

For example, in some cases "brainwashing" is a method to lock in preexisting biases so that they are no longer susceptible to any new information being successfully introduced that might challenge that bias and lead to further reflection. There are other angles to this also. For instance some may adhere to an instinct that "the means justifies the ends" which can lead them to shrug off some lies told in service to an end. I bet we agree on that part, but in some cases brainwashing is done most effectively on the meta-level, in distorting the perception of what is a justifiable "end". For someone who, for example, is a low wage worker struggling to just get by, who has become convinced that Trump is "fighting for people like him", than that belief could cause him to dismiss some of Trump's lies as merely "owning the Libs" who stand in the way of Trump achieving that end. But the Big Lie is that Trump is "fighting for people like him" when in reality Trump couldn't care less about people like him.

And, for the record, I believe that not all conservatives are driven by selfish instincts, but that is another discussion.

qdouble

(891 posts)
21. It's not that I don't think there is some level of propaganda
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 03:39 PM
Nov 2020

It’s that they accept the propaganda because it reinforces their self interest (even if they are wrong in their assessments of the personal benefit).

The GOP simply exploits moral fluidity. Our need to not want to view things that are self preserving shifts our ethics.

For example. I can clearly understand that animals feel pain. However, as I want to have proper nutrition or I just like the taste of meat...I can rationalize the suffering of animals as being inconsequential or an unfortunate necessity even though I could live without meat.

Likewise, when the GOP appeals to racial and economic self interests, the morals and worldview of their base adjust to make what they are told justifiable and congruent.

lanlady

(7,133 posts)
24. I dated an ex-Moonie
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:01 PM
Nov 2020

who went on to become a professional "deprogrammer" hired by families to rescue their children from cults.

What I learned from him is that it doesn't take much to suck a person into a cult. Cult leaders skillfully exploit the most basic of human survival instincts -- the urge to associate with a group for protection and direction, and to vilify free-thinkers.

Orwell's 1984 wasn't just a commentary on Soviet man.



 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
27. I think that you can identify susceptible people by who watches the History Channel and similar
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:19 PM
Nov 2020

If they like "Lost Gold of World War II" they will love Qanon.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,853 posts)
30. Ugh, yes.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:30 PM
Nov 2020

I remember when I could enjoy that channel, before it became inundated with conspiracies about extraterrestrials and such.

Facts are too boring for some people, I guess.

Buckeye_Democrat

(14,853 posts)
29. Some people want to be brainwashed, unfortunately.
Thu Nov 5, 2020, 05:28 PM
Nov 2020

They don't value truth enough, and they value power and narcissistic whims too much.

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