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Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:07 AM

What's wrong with withdrawing troops from Afghanistan?

Obviously I'm anti-Trump but I don't see anything wrong about getting out of Afghanistan. Afghanistan to me is a lost cause and we shouldn't have been in there in the first place. It was fine to bomb them after 9/11 but it was a waste to go to war with them. We will never be able to fix the problems in Afghanistan.

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Reply What's wrong with withdrawing troops from Afghanistan? (Original post)
Jspur Nov 2020 OP
RockRaven Nov 2020 #1
Jspur Nov 2020 #2
RockRaven Nov 2020 #5
Jspur Nov 2020 #7
RockRaven Nov 2020 #11
KWR65 Nov 2020 #33
littlemissmartypants Nov 2020 #3
Jspur Nov 2020 #4
littlemissmartypants Nov 2020 #6
Skittles Nov 2020 #15
littlemissmartypants Nov 2020 #18
LeftInTX Nov 2020 #19
torius Nov 2020 #9
Jspur Nov 2020 #10
Klaralven Nov 2020 #26
Jspur Nov 2020 #29
mvd Nov 2020 #8
ansible Nov 2020 #12
Skittles Nov 2020 #16
LeftInTX Nov 2020 #20
Skittles Nov 2020 #40
bullwinkle428 Nov 2020 #35
Blue_true Nov 2020 #44
Blue_true Nov 2020 #43
BGBD Nov 2020 #13
Jspur Nov 2020 #14
BGBD Nov 2020 #17
Blue_true Nov 2020 #45
DeminPennswoods Nov 2020 #21
Chainfire Nov 2020 #23
Jspur Nov 2020 #31
bdamomma Nov 2020 #37
DeminPennswoods Nov 2020 #41
JI7 Nov 2020 #22
maxrandb Nov 2020 #24
malaise Nov 2020 #25
Klaralven Nov 2020 #27
DeminPennswoods Nov 2020 #42
Demsrule86 Nov 2020 #28
BannonsLiver Nov 2020 #30
Arthur_Frain Nov 2020 #32
Jspur Nov 2020 #34
mtnsnake Nov 2020 #36
ecstatic Nov 2020 #38
Chakaconcarne Nov 2020 #39
LanternWaste Nov 2020 #46

Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:22 AM

1. The problem is that Trump doesn't give a fuck about methods or consequences. The goal is not

the issue. The HOW is the issue, and Trump has proven to be entirely willing and enthusiastic about doing grossly irresponsible, time-bomb-creating shit if it gives him the headline he wants for a few minutes. AND THAT IS WRONG WHEN YOU ARE POTUS.

THAT is what is wrong with it. There is no plan, there is no analysis showing better-than-the-alternative outcomes, there is no bearing of responsibility for what happens in the future... Just like everything Trump does.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #1)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:26 AM

2. I agree with what you saying about Trump but

I strongly believe the US should withdraw from Afghanistan. It bothers me that we are still at war with them. I don't see any point of still being there. We mad Afghanistan unstable and it is impossible to make it stable. The best thing to do is leave.

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Response to Jspur (Reply #2)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:47 AM

5. What do you mean by "we are still at war with them"?

Who is them? And who are their allies? And who are ours? And who are their enemies? And who are ours? And who are the allies and enemies of each of those parties? And of those parties?

I completely agree that the US can never, by just force of will and expenditure of blood and money, make Afghanistan be a certain way.

But it does not follow that leaving just to meet the goal of leaving yields a better outcome -- for all parties or in aggregate -- than not.

This is a complicated mess with no panacea. So "running away" seems especially unlikely to yield the best outcome. Probably that requires really well informed people making really unpopular decisions, consistently, for a really long time. That seems to be the way the universe works.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:50 AM

7. What is the US' objective by being in Afghanistan right now?

Is the US trying to prevent the Taliban from rising again? If we are trying to stop terrorism from rising that is futile game to play because we are never going to eliminate it 100 percent. To me there seems to be no solutions but to stay in Afghanistan forever and ever. When will the US leave? In 20 years, 40 years?

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Response to Jspur (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:05 AM

11. Instead of asking what the US goal is, ask what Trump's goal is. Because the same "what" with

a different "how" will yield different results.

And Trump cares about the headline "what" and not an iota about the "how." Which guarantees it will go badly.

The US goal, imo, should be best aggregate outcome for all stakeholders. Because that way lies medium to long term stability.

There is no point ghosting Afghanistan today if it means we get a new 9/11 and new Bush Doctrine in 2030.

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Response to RockRaven (Reply #5)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 10:46 AM

33. This is what people said about Vietnam.

"running away"


Vietnam is now a peaceful country run by the Vietnamese. Let the Afghans solve their own problems.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:31 AM

3. As a person with Afghan friends both here and in Afghanistan

I can tell you that the power vacuum that would be created would be devastating. Daily social peace and safety is so fragile there it will only be more destabilizing. I am fearful for them already and things are likely to only get worse if the withdrawal is reckless. I worry now when I hear about bombings that I may have lost a friend. Things can get worse. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

❤ lmsp

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Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #3)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:43 AM

4. I understand there is a moral dilema in withrawing from

Afghanistan. The question I would like to ask is it worth the lives of our troops? Is worth the trillions of dollars we are wasting with military spending by sending these troops there when we could be spending that money on our own people? I guess the other question I would like to ask was before 9/11 Afghanistan a stable place? If it wasn't stable before 9/11 then we will never be able to stabilize it and make it safe.

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Response to Jspur (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:50 AM

6. I don't think you understand what we're doing there.

We're certainly not at war with them. The troops are primarily serving to assist training an Afghan army and are serving as peacekeepers. To not risk the lives of anyone is paramount whatever their nationality. Deaths on all sides, would definitely increase in the presence of a power vacuum which is what would be created with the indiscriminate withdrawal of troops.

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Response to littlemissmartypants (Reply #6)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:18 AM

15. enough with the TRAINING THE AFGHAN ARMY schtick

some of our soldiers over there were not even BORN when 9/11 happened - how LONG does it take to train the Afghan army???

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Response to Skittles (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:32 AM

18. How's this?



UNGUARDED NATION

Afghan security forces, despite years of training, were dogged by incompetence and corruption

By Craig Whitlock Dec. 9, 2019
Snip...
With the Afghan security forces lagging in quantity and quality, the U.S. military has been unable to extricate itself from the faraway conflict. Although the number of U.S. troops in Afghanistan has dwindled from 100,000 eight years ago to 13,000 today, the Trump administration has had to escalate the war from the skies to prevent the Taliban from taking over.

President Trump has said he wants to withdraw more U.S. troops, and his diplomats are engaged in peace talks with the Taliban. But during his presidency, U.S. military aircraft have pounded Afghanistan each month with three times as many bombs and missiles, on average, as they dropped per month during President Barack Obama’s second term, according to Air Force statistics.

In the interview documents obtained by The Post, U.S. and NATO officials partially blamed themselves for the predicament. They said they moved too slowly to build up the Afghan forces during the first few years of the war when the Taliban presented a minimal threat. Then, after the Taliban rebounded, they rushed and tried to train too many Afghans too quickly.
Snip...
If the U.S. government had ramped up training between 2002 and 2006, “when the Taliban was weak and disorganized, things may have been different,” Lute added. “Instead, we went to Iraq. If we committed money deliberately and sooner, we could have a different outcome.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-army-police/


❤lmsp

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Response to Skittles (Reply #15)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:35 AM

19. It's a "failed state", so it's going to take a very long time

We created the mess...we are stuck...

I feel every time a US peacekeeper is killed over there...

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Response to Jspur (Reply #4)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:54 AM

9. trillions

for a few thousand troops? is it really that much? Are they in combat? Seems more of a peacekeeping thing. I don’t want Talibanism to spread there, just look what’s happening here in the U.S. with the armed wingnuts and multiply that by a lot. I like the idea of withdrawing, not convinced we’re there to stop terror from coming here since it came anyway but I don’t want to see Putin, Assad, Taliban, et al to spread their holdings.

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Response to torius (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:58 AM

10. I was wrong. According to this article the US spent 45 billion in Aghanistan

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Response to Jspur (Reply #10)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 08:09 AM

26. That's $45 billion per year -- over the decades it amounts to real money....

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Response to Klaralven (Reply #26)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 10:12 AM

29. Agreed it comes out to 450 billion over a decade

if the US continues to do this. It could also increase over time.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 02:53 AM

8. I do think they should come home, however..

like with everything, I have no trust in how Dump does it. Sure to be a chaotic mess with Dump.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:11 AM

12. Obama's withdrawal from Iraq in 2009 led to ISIS

Trump's withdrawal from Afghanistan would result in something even worse

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Response to ansible (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:19 AM

16. um, NO

the destabilization caused by Dubya led to ISIS

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Response to Skittles (Reply #16)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:41 AM

20. Obama's withdrawal from Iraq was too abrupt

I think he could have bought more time. DU members said he couldn't, but other opinions have said that he could withdrawn more gradually and kept more peacekeepers there. There was a stalemate between Obama and the Iraqi PM and it was felt that Obama really did not try as hard as he could to negotiate a deal to keep more peacekeepers in the country.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #20)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 05:34 PM

40. that may be true

but it was that warmongering piece of shit DUBYA who helped to create ISIS, not Obama

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Response to ansible (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:45 PM

35. You know damn well this is a RW talking point. Obama had absolutely

no say in the matter. The withdrawal was the result of an agreement on the part of the BUSH ADMINISTRATION, who did not want to allow American service people prosecuted under Sharia Law, as determined by the successors of Saddam Hussein.

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #35)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:41 PM

44. President Obama tried to negotiate the agreement, but still not allow

troops to be tried in Iraqi Courts. When Iraq held firm on it’s demand to try US troops, President Obama completed Bush’s withdrawal agreement (which was the only option on the table).

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Response to ansible (Reply #12)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:36 PM

43. You are incorrect. ISIS formed in 2004, after Bush invaded Iraq.

President Obama was just running for the US Senate at that time.

It is legitimate to argue that the withdrawal of US troops allowed ISIS to expand, because the Iraqi army was too incompetent and corrupt to face the terrorists down. But President Obama simply completed a withdrawal plan established by President Bush, the issue for both Presidents was Iraq’s demand to try US troops who committed crimes in the country, something that the US have never allowed (troops are tried in US Military Courts).

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:13 AM

13. Pull out and

You'll see ISIS back controlling territory before Easter. They don't particularly care if their Califate is in Syria or Afghanistan. They just want somewhere to control and launch attacks from.

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Response to BGBD (Reply #13)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:16 AM

14. I feel the problem is there will always be terrorist groups that form in

Afghanistan. I don't think you can unfortunately stop it from happening.

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Response to Jspur (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:25 AM

17. And if the price to keep them on their heels in Afghanistan

is a contingent of 8k troops....that's just fine.

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Response to Jspur (Reply #14)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:50 PM

45. You make a good point.

When terrorism is mixed with religion, it is almost impossible to stop. The only historical exception that I know of was Menachem Begin in Israel, he and a group that he was affiliated with carried out bombings aimed at British rule. Begin later became PM of Israel and along with President Carter and Egypt’s Sadat, crafted the historic and still fruitful peace agreement between Egypt and Israel.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:51 AM

21. Sooner or later the US will leave Afghanistan just

as the Soviet Union did. There aren't enough US troops there to make a real difference. I'd probably push for the territory controlled by The Northern Alliance, which seems more secular and open, to become it's own independent state. If the rest of Afghanistan wants to be a theocracy, let it.
This is the DU member formerly known as DeminPennswoods.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 07:47 AM

23. The problem is that when leave

We leave the people who have worked with us, hand in hand, for decades to the mercy of their enemies, just like we did in Vietnam.

I would love to see our involvements in the two countries come to an end, and soon, but the plans need to include how to protect our allies on the way out. Trump wants to be the man who ended the endless wars and he doesn't give a damn who is hurt in the process.

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Response to Chainfire (Reply #23)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 10:26 AM

31. The problem I have is that we can't protect these people forever.

They are all always going to be at the mercy of Islamic radicalism because Afghanistan historically has been a country that produces these types of people. This is the equivalent of trying to convert a town of hardcore Trumpers to become progressive democrats.

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Response to DeminPennswoods (Reply #21)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:50 PM

37. Yes

Russia did pull out after 19 years it was a lost cause for them

Afghanistan will go back being a Taliban run state. Was this order to drawn down troops an order from Putin to tRump?

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #37)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:28 PM

41. Geopolitically, Putin would want the US tied up

in Afghanistan forever. It's just a drain on whatever country is there trying to install one kind of govt or another or subdue to tribal leaders.
This is the DU member formerly known as DeminPennswoods.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 07:13 AM

22. It's the way it's being done . Afghan Allies also feel abandoned just as the Kurds did . The US

could have worked on a goal to have some international presence including non military .

There is the risk of Terrorists being able to use the place for training and planning attacks like happened with 9/11.I believe this is one reason the US stayed.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 07:56 AM

24. Because foreign policy and deployment of American power should NEVER be "willy-nilly"

or treated like a spoiled child saying; "I'm taking my marbles and going home".

We've been plunged into World Wars because of such impulsive foreign policy steps.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 07:57 AM

25. Ditto n/t

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 08:13 AM

27. The country should have been split, southeast Pashtuns and northwest Tajik, Uzbek, Darii alliance

Putting the Pashtuns back in overall control was a terrible mistake. Pashtun society will never change.

It is too late for success now. The Pashtuns will eventually win allied with Pakistan.

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Response to Klaralven (Reply #27)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:29 PM

42. +1

This is the DU member formerly known as DeminPennswoods.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 08:20 AM

28. You are abandoning people who helped us to their deaths...and the Taliban will be back in control.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 10:17 AM

30. This is one way Trump converted Obama supporters in 2016

If anyone ever wonders how/why that happened it was with the help of issues like this. You have a Trumpian position a Dem favors. String a few of those together and you have a conversion.

I don’t agree with the OP’s view, or Trump’s view, however.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 10:42 AM

32. No, see, you just miss all of the talking points on the right.

We need to make sure that the American poor bootstrap themselves into prosperity, damnit, and the only way to do that is to take away every crutch that we are actually using to hold them down until they can stand up on their own two feet like gawd intended them to. So let’s eliminate every single social safety net until they do.

Now see in camel-land it’s different. We’ve got a helluva lot of ordinance to test, and ,well let’s face it, just use damnit, because if we have all these warehouses full of old bullets and bombs, we can’t very well make the case that the military budget needs money for more new bullets and bombs next year too.

And that bootstrapping thing only works on our own brown people over here too, those gawdless heathen over there in Arab-land can’t be trusted with their own war, er, oops, oil, er, oops, I meant “economy”. I mean we’ll do Faustian business with them to keep other brown folks we don’t like in check, but until they come to jeebus they’re just not going to be trustworthy.

Okay sorry, I was feeling a little smart ass this morning. Your comment “it was ‘fine’ to bomb them after 9/11 but it was a waste to go to war with them” kind of gave me pause. Ever wonder why after watching the Russians run home with their tail between their legs from Afghanistan, we decided we should take a shot? I always have.

It’s the same old story though. Just follow the money. It has absolutely nothing to do with solving any “problems” that Afghanistan might have, or problems we might have with Afghanistan. It’s a pretty good fucking political drum to beat anytime you need to though, that’s what permanent conflict gives you.

And it’s a great weapon because it lets you call folks back home who disagree with you about the war “unAmerican”, and you get to say provocative shit like “why do you hate America?” on your shitty radio show.

Sorry again, I’m apparently “on one” this morning. Peace.

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Response to Arthur_Frain (Reply #32)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:37 PM

34. I feel the exact same way that you do about MIC and

the hypocrisy of our government not willing to help out the poor and struggling in our own country but allegedly wanting to help out poor and struggling people in a foreign land and even that is not legit in my eyes.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:48 PM

36. Withdrawing them is one thing, but where he will send them next is another

He has been contemplating war with Iran.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 03:51 PM

38. I don't know enough to make a judgment, but I think trump is setting up for '24

"I pulled them out, Biden put them back in!"

Unfortunately, the simple minded POS will be dead or in jail by 2024.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 04:00 PM

39. Trump isn't doing this to benefit the US or our troops.... Something else is up.

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Response to Jspur (Original post)

Tue Nov 17, 2020, 06:57 PM

46. I think you're confusing methodology with objective.

The latter is achieved by proper application of the former.

(ps: any problem created by humans can be solved by humans... but we too often allow the imaginary red and blue lines on the map to instruct us as to who is worth what)

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