General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSad to see Rachel spreading misinformation on alternate slates of PA electors
She is referencing Bart Gellmans clickbait article in the Atlantic from September on the Trump campaigns pre-election contacts with PA GOP legislators about overturning results and appointing alternate slates of electors.
Her staff have failed to provide her with the bigger picture, including the many obstacles that will prevent this scenario from unfolding.
She is omitting important information from her coverage, including the following crucial information from Laurence Tribe and others, outlining how legislatures cannot act unilaterally to appoint electors:
http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2020/09/state-legislatures-cannot-act-alone-in.html
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e70e52c7c72720ed714313f/t/5f625c790cef066e940ea42d/1600281722253/State_Legislature_Paper.pdf
https://verdict.justia.com/2020/09/30/no-republicans-cannot-throw-the-presidential-election-into-the-house-so-that-trump-wins
She did have PA Lt. Gov. Fetterman on, who said hes not concerned about Mondays certification, and isnt concerned about the legislature taking any extreme, unlawful actions.
TheRealNorth
(9,478 posts)He just has to prevent Biden from reaching 270.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,585 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)Trump is just throwing shit against the wall.
TwilightZone
(25,464 posts)Cha
(297,154 posts)".. trump wins.." The MF LOST.. That's REALITY.
crickets
(25,962 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)He has to prevent Biden from getting a majority of the electors who actually vote. The majority needed to win under most of the schemes being floated here and elsewhere is less than 270.
He cannot prevent Biden from getting the majority he needs to carry the Electoral College and become president on January 20, 2021.
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)Rachel is correct to be worried https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-uses-power-of-presidency-to-try-to-overturn-the-election-and-stay-in-office/2020/11/19/bc89caa6-2a9f-11eb-8fa2-06e7cbb145c0_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0sEwKAVH0_rdY6g9ZGpqxB6hgurlz8U16J97Vp23g53e03m_x2_hRa6-g
These are the words and actions of an attempted coup, according to historians and other experts.
We have never seen anything like this before, historian and author Michael Beschloss said. This is a president abusing his very great powers to try to stay in office, even though it is obvious to everyone that he has been defeated in the polls. That is a prospect that terrified most of the founders.
Beschloss added, I dont want to be alarmist, but I do think its our job as citizens to keep watch on every one of these things with an eye to that ultimate dread of the founders, which is that a president rejected by the voters would use his powers to try to stay in office anyway.
rump is trying to overturn the result of the election. I doubt that he will succeed but we need to be prepared and watch what happens in Michigan, Wisconsin and Penn. The fact that Georgis certified the vote is helpful but trump will not give up. I agree with Beschloss and Rachel that we need to watch trump's action and be prepared
FelineOverlord
(3,574 posts)"his lawyers say they believe he has a relatively strong case in Dane and Milwaukee counties because of how officials there conducted absentee balloting. They have offered no evidence to bolster their case."
He has absolutely terrible lawyers, though.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)and having to deal with Susan's covid scare cramped her style a bit. Hope someone emails her with some clarifications.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...so I don't think it has anything to do with absence. She just tends to have a pessimistic outlook, from my experience.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,674 posts)Haven't watched her show in quite awhile because she can be so depressing.
BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)And thought Ah, so thats where all the doomery around here has come from.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...before she returned from her quarantine.
brush
(53,764 posts)not what they can actually do?
Fiendish Thingy
(15,585 posts)Without providing easily available facts to refute this.
brush
(53,764 posts)results of the election and choosing their own electors even if they wanted to as it's not legally possible.
Maybe because I know Rudy and Powell's traveling shit show of lies and tossed legal filings are nothing but shams designed to placate trump and possibly get Rudy a pardon. I don't know what Powell gets out of this or why she wants to be associated with this embarrassmentbut she was Flynn's attorney so I guess she's just another trumper.
triron
(21,999 posts)over the situation. Trump is sowing confusion.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)Rachel is reporting on announed plans being pursued by trump. We are fortunate in that trump is an idiot and is too stupid to pull this coup off. However we still need to pay attention https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/these-are-words-actions-attempted-coup-n1248421
With this in mind, the president is still scheduled to meet this afternoon with GOP leaders from the Michigan legislature, who were yesterday summoned to the White House for unsubtle reasons.
Reuters reported that Trump's strategy for "retaining power despite losing the U.S. election is focused increasingly on persuading Republican legislators to intervene on his behalf in battleground states Democrat Joe Biden won." The Post's report added the president's hopes that Republicans in some states will simply "flip" results in his favor, voters' will be damned.
"These are the words and actions of an attempted coup, according to historians and other experts," the article said.
It matters, of course, that Trump will almost certainly fail. But the fact that he's making such an attempt is itself a scandal of historic proportions, and he's creating new norms, standards, and strategies that will outlive what remains of his failed term.
trump will try to get these states to select electors spporting him or to delay the certification of vote to keep electors from being appointed. We are lucky that trump is an idiot and these efforts should fail. Rachel was correct to call our attention to trump's efforts and statements
dansolo
(5,376 posts)Option 1 - Get legislatures to just award him electors for states Biden won- Not legally feasible, and if it were even possible, would be unconstitutional
Option 2 - Invalidate a state's election and cause it to not be certified. More possible than the first, but would require evidence to justify. Also, this won't help because that will lower the number needed for Biden to win.
Option 3 - Try to invalidate some votes to shift a state over to Trump, like what was tried in Michigan. This is the most dangerous approach, but that has gone nowhere. I don't think that any judge is willing to discard votes already cast without any actual evidence of widespread fraudulent activity.
The reason these are failing isn't because Trump is an idiot. Better lawyers wouldn't be able to provide any legal justification for these actions. Trump is an idiot for even attempting them.
relayerbob
(6,544 posts)Not really very helpful under the circumstances. Too stressed out. Hard not to have sympathy, but ...
Me.
(35,454 posts)helpisontheway
(5,007 posts)dont need to listen to her and start worrying again.
Rice4VP
(1,235 posts)Maybe shes approaching it from the low information viewer POV to bring all of the answers out
fearnobush
(3,960 posts)Bush V Gore Bush lawyer Ginsberg has detailed just how nearly impossible it would be for them to steal PA. Not sure why she is fear mongering this.
DeminPennswoods
(15,278 posts)It's nothing more than that. FWIW, Chris Hayes was in a panic about it, too, a couple days ago and actually interviewed Gellman.
Gellman isn't a lawyer or a constitutional law scholar. He's a very good national security reporter and has broken his share of important stories in that arena, but as posted above, his story in The Atlantic was nothing but speculative clickbait.
Ms. Toad
(34,062 posts)(we became a colleagues of before he retired a couple of years ago). We've been meeting regularly throughout the election with a small group - most of whom have legal experience in a variety of settings - including the DOJ.
I took the position advocated by Tribe, et al. My former professor is not so sure, with the make up of the Supreme Court now, that it would prevail. The DOJ attorney in the bunch (with 2-3 decades of experience) is not either.
Both are, at this point, relatively certain the Supreme Court will not step in - but only because the margin of victory is so large and involves several states. Not because the legal theory will not ultiamately prevail if it reaches the Supreme Court in a case they are willing to take (a Bush v. Gore kind of case).
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)And even then, the republicans that control Pennsylvania would have to play along. If trumps marketing ploy was better they might not be able to pass up the opportunity.
Once again we are saved by trump being a fat lazy trust fund buffoon. (And Georgia and Arizona - thank you Stacy Abrams, Native Americans, and Latino activists)
But still...
Like Ginsburgs seat, the precious would be hard to resist if it were down to Pennsylvania.
Any state or federal statute could be tossed by the Supreme Court if they decided a strict reading of Article II - choosing electors. So it wouldnt matter what the State Constitution or the previous case law said.
In Smiley v. Holm cited in the article above, the Supreme Court overruled the Minnesota Supreme Court allowing for the legislature to act independently of the governor.
So apparently the Legislature is Supreme in choosing electors idea isnt a new one.
Ms. Toad
(34,062 posts)and the Thursday immediately following when it was not yet clear how it woudl come out. Both suggested it was a likely outcome if there was only one state in dispute and any legitimate reason to question the results.
But even if they decline to take it because it would require issuing an advisory opinion, the legal question is still out there. No Supreme Court has yet accepted it - but (in the opinion of my learned friends) there are at least 4 justices who might now be inclined to accept it. So Maddow is not uninformed as to this question.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)... laying out the Pennsylvania scenario with an assumed (as a place holder) Elizabeth Warren as the Democratic candidate. Pre pandemic they were talking about the Democratic candidate making up a red mirage deficit more along the lines of HRC picking up 23,000 votes post election night. What was Bidens deficit? 500,000?
One thing for certain they were right about: he was going to try it.
Had it been closer...
Silver Gaia
(4,542 posts)I think she is probably not ready to be back. Too emotional, not thinking clearly like we have come too expect from her.
tman
(983 posts)I don't watch cable news trash for that reason.
DarthDem
(5,255 posts)Rachel is extremely intelligent and a wonderful person and Democratic advocate. She is also quite often a doomsayer and a pessimist in the extreme. That approach is also very appealing to her audience, handily.
Me.
(35,454 posts)She did the same thing election night and Nicolle had to step in and pull her back from the edge
Polly Hennessey
(6,793 posts)When she does that, I usually skip her program. I think it is her nature to look on the dark side.
RealityBasedNewYorkr
(119 posts)The same sentence....over and over and over. Watched 15 minutes tonight after a long absence and - yup - still cant stand it. Oh well, she has her fans and it works for them. Just not my cup of tea.
BigDemVoter
(4,149 posts)She takes an hour to say what could be said in 10 minutes. I do agree with her, but I don't much ike watching her anymore.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)I am a former college debater and I am now a lawyer. It is hard building a strong argument and repitition helps. Rachel is actually very good at structuring strong arguments
doc03
(35,325 posts)Trump can flip electors, for ratings, I think she knows it is BS. I have seen several people on CNN and MSNBC
that are supposed to be experts on the subject one has him stealing the election the next says there is no way.
I switched to Don Lemon on CNN is isn't so damn depressing.
melman
(7,681 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Brian Williams: "Killing People is Beautiful"
Bernie Sanders: Being a Woman is NOT ENOUGH!
These are irresponsible (and incorrect) headlines meant to attract clicks.
PatSeg
(47,399 posts)Whereas the video was quite reasonable.
melman
(7,681 posts)It's right there in the video.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"friend"
A most scathing indictment indeed.
melman
(7,681 posts)Huh?
George II
(67,782 posts)radius777
(3,635 posts)The Constitution grants legislatures the right to decide how to appoint the electors.
Any law relating to an election can only be made prior to the election.
All 50 state legislatures have decided that the people, through their votes, determine which party will appoint the electors.
Legislatures can only regain the right to appoint electors directly should the election 'fail' and be unable to be certified.
As long as the election results can be certified - meaning that there was no widespread fraud and/or negligence and the vote can be reasonably trusted - then courts will step in and force certification should rogue officials arbitrarily decide not to certify.
Minor irregularities that occur in any election cannot stop certification.
Conspiracy theories, conjecture, hearsay etc cannot stop certification.
Any attempts by rogue officials or legislators to interfere with the certification is illegal.
In short, Trump and his allies are putting on political theatre to string their reality-denying base along.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,325 posts)But I also agree that everything past your initial bullet point could be wiped away with a strict interpretation of that same initial bullet point.
The current court has already signaled a desire to use that strict interpretation of elector choosing language . That would include overruling State Statutes, federal statutes, and State Supreme Courts.
If we were down to Pennsylvania, and trump did a better job sowing doubt and confusion,
we might have a big problem. Thankfully we are not and Trumps crack squad of Rudy Bat boy Giuliani blundered at every step. In their defense, their idiot employer doesnt know when to quit and he has never been shy about making his attorneys look like fools.
It could all come down to Amy crazy eyes Barrett, Clarence own the libs Thomas, Samual my mommy wants me to ban abortion Alito and Brett I get the last fucking laugh Kavanaugh. Plus maybe Neil the thief Gorsuch.
I truly believe Georgia and Arizona saved us from a Constitutional crisis. Without those two states, Trumps team could have focused on Pennsylvania. And maybe some A-team lawyers might have taken the reins if there was a fighting chance.
radius777
(3,635 posts)as they would be fearful that if in the future Dems overtake swing state legislatures we would give the states (and the presidency) to the Dem candidate. The Texas legislature is not far away from becoming blue. Presidential elections would basically have no meaning, as it would be known ahead of time (based upon whichever party controls enough of the swing state legislatures) would win the presidency. Neither party would go for that.
From everything I've seen from both conservative and liberal election experts - the bullet points I listed are generally accepted - that power to appoint the electors flows from the Constitution through the legislatures through the people and finally through the parties.
Conservatives courts do take a stricter (voter suppresive) view of election laws. They overturned several state liberal court rulings that allowed late arriving mail-in ballots due to covid, on the basis that only the legislature can make election law. But the conservative courts did not say (or imply) that legislatures can do whatever they want whenever they want (such as arbitrarily appointing electors in contradiction to existing laws).
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)Rachel is aware of the legal barriers to trump's scheme to overturn the election and Rachel is correct to be worried. trump is going to test these legal barriers and there are no gurantees that trump will not be successful Remember that trump is still an idiot and I doubt that he can pull this stunt off but this does not mean that a future intelligent authoratarian might not be successful.
Link to tweet
This idea has been pushed by conservative talk show host Mark Levin and picked up by the right wing as a way to keep their beloved president in office for at least four more years. Its a theory that is very unlikely to prevail, particularly since the Supreme Court just decided a case on faithless electors last July, in which the justices made it very clear that whatever the founders may have anticipated in the 18th century, our democracy today demands that electors express the will of the people. It will take some convoluted intellectual gyrations for them to conclude that state officials can simply change the results at their discretion.....
If that doesnt work, the strike force are also talking about a Plan C, which would be to delay the vote certification for so long that the states cant send Bidens required 270 electors to Congress by the deadline, which under the 12th Amendment to the Constitution would throw the election to the House, where every states delegation gets one vote. As luck would have it Republicans hold 26 of the 50 delegations. Surprise!
Is any of this remotely possible? Sure. Its unlikely, but its possible. Its tempting to think this is all so nuts that it could never possibly happen, but we thought everything Donald Trump has done over the past five years was nuts, and here we are. All our hand-wringing about this plot being un-American and destructive to our democracy is sadly irrelevant not just to the preposterous Giuliani and the equally preposterous Trump but to the entire Republican Party. They have learned the power of total shamelessness, and it is profound. I would never count them out.
Like Rachel, I am worried. Legal barriers work only to the extent that the courts and the public respect such barriers. trump is going to push against these barriers and I believe that he will lose.
I note that Prof. Michael Beschloss is also worried https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-uses-power-of-presidency-to-try-to-overturn-the-election-and-stay-in-office/2020/11/19/bc89caa6-2a9f-11eb-8fa2-06e7cbb145c0_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0sEwKAVH0_rdY6g9ZGpqxB6hgurlz8U16J97Vp23g53e03m_x2_hRa6-g
We have never seen anything like this before, historian and author Michael Beschloss said. This is a president abusing his very great powers to try to stay in office, even though it is obvious to everyone that he has been defeated in the polls. That is a prospect that terrified most of the founders.
Beschloss added, I dont want to be alarmist, but I do think its our job as citizens to keep watch on every one of these things with an eye to that ultimate dread of the founders, which is that a president rejected by the voters would use his powers to try to stay in office anyway.
Rachel and Beschloss are correct to worry. I personally believe that these efforts will fail. The fact that Georgia certified the vote was important today. However we need to heed Rachel and be prepared to fight back.
OnDoutside
(19,953 posts)David__77
(23,370 posts)First - there is a possibility that it will be successful, however remote.
Second - it is needed to for all elected officials to be submitted to a test: do you support democratic norms? Those who don't pass that test should be clearly identified. Many Republicans wish not to be submitted to that test and bide their time - that's no good.
Third - there is a pro-fascist mass movement that must be exposed and opposed, and finally defeated such that it does not emerge into the political mainstream again.
lostnfound
(16,173 posts)After what she has been through.
Gonna take a little time for her to sift through the pile of news to get the gestalt of the thing
She has been off since before the election
OnDoutside
(19,953 posts)are laughing at the very thought that Trump might even TRY to overturn the election. He IS trying, whether he succeeds is a different story, but it's important to take this seriously. Rachel has consistently said to watch what he does, not what he says, and her comments are based on what he's actively trying to do, what he clearly has been planning to do. What will probably turn out to be his undoing, was losing Georgia, but have no doubt they had a strategy coming into this.
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)I strongly believe that trump will not succeed but I will feel a great better when the Michigan certification is final . trump is doing his best to either get the GOP state legislature to put their own delegation of electors or to delay the selection of electors. We need to be viligent
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Rachel was correct to point out that trump will not stop trying to overturn the results of the election. I do not believe that she was being an alarmist
Gothmog
(145,130 posts)trump tested the system and so far it has held. Next time we may not be lucky enough to have an idiot try to push a coup
Link to tweet