Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Fiendish Thingy

(15,585 posts)
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:48 PM Nov 2020

Sad to see Rachel spreading misinformation on alternate slates of PA electors

She is referencing Bart Gellman’s clickbait article in the Atlantic from September on the Trump campaign’s pre-election contacts with PA GOP legislators about overturning results and appointing alternate slates of electors.

Her staff have failed to provide her with the bigger picture, including the many obstacles that will prevent this scenario from unfolding.

She is omitting important information from her coverage, including the following crucial information from Laurence Tribe and others, outlining how legislatures cannot act unilaterally to appoint electors:

http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2020/09/state-legislatures-cannot-act-alone-in.html

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e70e52c7c72720ed714313f/t/5f625c790cef066e940ea42d/1600281722253/State_Legislature_Paper.pdf

https://verdict.justia.com/2020/09/30/no-republicans-cannot-throw-the-presidential-election-into-the-house-so-that-trump-wins

She did have PA Lt. Gov. Fetterman on, who said he’s not concerned about Monday’s certification, and isn’t concerned about the legislature taking any extreme, unlawful actions.

59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Sad to see Rachel spreading misinformation on alternate slates of PA electors (Original Post) Fiendish Thingy Nov 2020 OP
Trump wins if we don't get 270 electors TheRealNorth Nov 2020 #1
He can't and won't. Nt Fiendish Thingy Nov 2020 #3
It won't happen. Relax. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #4
Which he can't. TwilightZone Nov 2020 #16
PLEASE STOP saying .. Cha Nov 2020 #17
Thank you! nt crickets Nov 2020 #21
No StarfishSaver Nov 2020 #22
Thank you Dem4Life1102 Nov 2020 #37
Trump uses power of presidency to try to overturn the election and stay in office Gothmog Nov 2020 #39
Trump uses power of presidency to try to overturn the election and stay in office FelineOverlord Nov 2020 #48
Here is another bogus lawsuit that Marc Elias will need to fight Gothmog Nov 2020 #51
She's usually very thorough - maybe being away The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #2
She's been hair-on-fire about this since September, though... regnaD kciN Nov 2020 #25
That's true. She does get kind of doomy sometimes. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2020 #30
I watched a few minutes. BannonsLiver Nov 2020 #5
Except that the gloom-and-doom started here a few days ago... regnaD kciN Nov 2020 #27
Isn't she just saying this was something republicans discussed beforedhand,... brush Nov 2020 #6
No, she didn't just report, she amplified the issue as "they are doing this right now" Fiendish Thingy Nov 2020 #11
I watched and got the impression there is no way they can pull off ditching the... brush Nov 2020 #24
I think you are seeing this in a narrow sense. She is just expressing alarm triron Nov 2020 #28
'These are the words and actions of an attempted coup' Gothmog Nov 2020 #41
Trump only has three options, none of which has any likely hood of being successful dansolo Nov 2020 #43
She's being over the top panicky tonight relayerbob Nov 2020 #7
I THough She Was Being Irresponsible r Me. Nov 2020 #19
Thanks for the heads up. I'm already worried enough. I don't helpisontheway Nov 2020 #8
I got annoyed with her understanding of the Michigan vote Rice4VP Nov 2020 #9
I find her over the top at times and even omitting stuff. fearnobush Nov 2020 #10
Fearmongering equals ratings DeminPennswoods Nov 2020 #46
I had precisely this argument with my former Con Law professor Ms. Toad Nov 2020 #12
I think we would be closer to being in trouble if it were down to one state. Hassin Bin Sober Nov 2020 #31
Correct - the argument/discussion was prior to the election, Ms. Toad Nov 2020 #33
Yeah, Loyola Law School put out a paper a year ago ... Hassin Bin Sober Nov 2020 #36
I noticed this, too. Silver Gaia Nov 2020 #13
FEAR sells. tman Nov 2020 #14
No one failed to provide her with the bigger picture DarthDem Nov 2020 #15
Another Hair On Fire Couple Of Segments Me. Nov 2020 #18
She does tend to be pessimistic at times. Polly Hennessey Nov 2020 #20
I just can't deal with her trademark repetitiveness RealityBasedNewYorkr Nov 2020 #23
"Lots of breaking news!" BigDemVoter Nov 2020 #35
I personally like the way Rachel builds her arguments Gothmog Nov 2020 #52
I watched part of her show the last couple nights she seems to be pushing the idea doc03 Nov 2020 #26
Rachel Maddow: "Roger Ailes was my mentor'' melman Nov 2020 #29
Sensationalist "Headline". The next two T6 (or whatever it is) videos on Youtube are titled: George II Nov 2020 #47
Yes, it was a ridiculous headline PatSeg Nov 2020 #49
Maddow said she considered Ailes a mentor and friend melman Nov 2020 #53
Fox Host Argues Trump Doesn't Need Court Evidence To Steal Swing States From Biden Gothmog Nov 2020 #55
Goodness gracious. LanternWaste Nov 2020 #56
What? melman Nov 2020 #57
The next thing you, know people will be trashing RBG because she was close friends with Scalia!! George II Nov 2020 #58
+1. Rachel is brilliant but also anxious, sometimes clouds her viewpoint. radius777 Nov 2020 #32
I agree with everything you wrote 100% Hassin Bin Sober Nov 2020 #34
I doubt even far right justices would go along with that, radius777 Nov 2020 #40
Giuliani's demented 'strike force' is fighting to overturn the election- Gothmog Nov 2020 #38
Well said. OnDoutside Nov 2020 #45
It's important to focus on this for multiple reasons. David__77 Nov 2020 #59
Jfc y'all give her a break. It's a miracle she's back working now lostnfound Nov 2020 #42
Oh how we laughed at the very thought of Trump becoming President in 2016. Four years later, people OnDoutside Nov 2020 #44
trump is still trying to overturn the results of the election Gothmog Nov 2020 #50
"Next time, Americans might not be so lucky." Gothmog Nov 2020 #54
 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
22. No
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:28 PM
Nov 2020

He has to prevent Biden from getting a majority of the electors who actually vote. The majority needed to win under most of the schemes being floated here and elsewhere is less than 270.

He cannot prevent Biden from getting the majority he needs to carry the Electoral College and become president on January 20, 2021.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
39. Trump uses power of presidency to try to overturn the election and stay in office
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 02:04 AM
Nov 2020

Rachel is correct to be worried https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-uses-power-of-presidency-to-try-to-overturn-the-election-and-stay-in-office/2020/11/19/bc89caa6-2a9f-11eb-8fa2-06e7cbb145c0_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0sEwKAVH0_rdY6g9ZGpqxB6hgurlz8U16J97Vp23g53e03m_x2_hRa6-g

Trump also is consulting with advisers about how he might get Wisconsin ballots discarded, and his lawyers say they believe he has a relatively strong case in Dane and Milwaukee counties because of how officials there conducted absentee balloting. They have offered no evidence to bolster their case.

These are the words and actions of an attempted coup, according to historians and other experts.

“We have never seen anything like this before,” historian and author Michael Beschloss said. “This is a president abusing his very great powers to try to stay in office, even though it is obvious to everyone that he has been defeated in the polls. That is a prospect that terrified most of the founders.”

Beschloss added, “I don’t want to be alarmist, but I do think it’s our job as citizens to keep watch on every one of these things with an eye to that ultimate dread of the founders, which is that a president rejected by the voters would use his powers to try to stay in office anyway.”

rump is trying to overturn the result of the election. I doubt that he will succeed but we need to be prepared and watch what happens in Michigan, Wisconsin and Penn. The fact that Georgis certified the vote is helpful but trump will not give up. I agree with Beschloss and Rachel that we need to watch trump's action and be prepared

FelineOverlord

(3,574 posts)
48. Trump uses power of presidency to try to overturn the election and stay in office
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 10:10 AM
Nov 2020
"his lawyers say they believe he has a relatively strong case in Dane and Milwaukee counties because of how officials there conducted absentee balloting. They have offered no evidence to bolster their case."


He has absolutely terrible lawyers, though.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,674 posts)
2. She's usually very thorough - maybe being away
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:50 PM
Nov 2020

and having to deal with Susan's covid scare cramped her style a bit. Hope someone emails her with some clarifications.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
25. She's been hair-on-fire about this since September, though...
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:44 PM
Nov 2020

...so I don't think it has anything to do with absence. She just tends to have a pessimistic outlook, from my experience.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,674 posts)
30. That's true. She does get kind of doomy sometimes.
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:55 PM
Nov 2020

Haven't watched her show in quite awhile because she can be so depressing.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
27. Except that the gloom-and-doom started here a few days ago...
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:45 PM
Nov 2020

...before she returned from her quarantine.

brush

(53,764 posts)
6. Isn't she just saying this was something republicans discussed beforedhand,...
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:53 PM
Nov 2020

not what they can actually do?

Fiendish Thingy

(15,585 posts)
11. No, she didn't just report, she amplified the issue as "they are doing this right now"
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:01 PM
Nov 2020

Without providing easily available facts to refute this.

brush

(53,764 posts)
24. I watched and got the impression there is no way they can pull off ditching the...
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:35 PM
Nov 2020

results of the election and choosing their own electors even if they wanted to as it's not legally possible.

Maybe because I know Rudy and Powell's traveling shit show of lies and tossed legal filings are nothing but shams designed to placate trump and possibly get Rudy a pardon. I don't know what Powell gets out of this or why she wants to be associated with this embarrassment—but she was Flynn's attorney so I guess she's just another trumper.

triron

(21,999 posts)
28. I think you are seeing this in a narrow sense. She is just expressing alarm
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:45 PM
Nov 2020

over the situation. Trump is sowing confusion.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
41. 'These are the words and actions of an attempted coup'
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 02:30 AM
Nov 2020

Rachel is reporting on announed plans being pursued by trump. We are fortunate in that trump is an idiot and is too stupid to pull this coup off. However we still need to pay attention https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/these-are-words-actions-attempted-coup-n1248421

But we're well past that point now. Trump and his team don't want to count ballots; they want election results in some states to be invalidated. A member of the president's legal team was explicit on this point yesterday on Fox Business, arguing, "The entire election, frankly, in all the swing states should be overturned and the legislatures should make sure that the electors are selected for Trump."

With this in mind, the president is still scheduled to meet this afternoon with GOP leaders from the Michigan legislature, who were yesterday summoned to the White House for unsubtle reasons.

Reuters reported that Trump's strategy for "retaining power despite losing the U.S. election is focused increasingly on persuading Republican legislators to intervene on his behalf in battleground states Democrat Joe Biden won." The Post's report added the president's hopes that Republicans in some states will simply "flip" results in his favor, voters' will be damned.

"These are the words and actions of an attempted coup, according to historians and other experts," the article said.

It matters, of course, that Trump will almost certainly fail. But the fact that he's making such an attempt is itself a scandal of historic proportions, and he's creating new norms, standards, and strategies that will outlive what remains of his failed term.

trump will try to get these states to select electors spporting him or to delay the certification of vote to keep electors from being appointed. We are lucky that trump is an idiot and these efforts should fail. Rachel was correct to call our attention to trump's efforts and statements

dansolo

(5,376 posts)
43. Trump only has three options, none of which has any likely hood of being successful
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 08:58 AM
Nov 2020

Option 1 - Get legislatures to just award him electors for states Biden won- Not legally feasible, and if it were even possible, would be unconstitutional
Option 2 - Invalidate a state's election and cause it to not be certified. More possible than the first, but would require evidence to justify. Also, this won't help because that will lower the number needed for Biden to win.
Option 3 - Try to invalidate some votes to shift a state over to Trump, like what was tried in Michigan. This is the most dangerous approach, but that has gone nowhere. I don't think that any judge is willing to discard votes already cast without any actual evidence of widespread fraudulent activity.

The reason these are failing isn't because Trump is an idiot. Better lawyers wouldn't be able to provide any legal justification for these actions. Trump is an idiot for even attempting them.

relayerbob

(6,544 posts)
7. She's being over the top panicky tonight
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:53 PM
Nov 2020

Not really very helpful under the circumstances. Too stressed out. Hard not to have sympathy, but ...

helpisontheway

(5,007 posts)
8. Thanks for the heads up. I'm already worried enough. I don't
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:53 PM
Nov 2020

don’t need to listen to her and start worrying again.

Rice4VP

(1,235 posts)
9. I got annoyed with her understanding of the Michigan vote
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 10:54 PM
Nov 2020

Maybe she’s approaching it from the low information viewer POV to bring all of the answers out

fearnobush

(3,960 posts)
10. I find her over the top at times and even omitting stuff.
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:00 PM
Nov 2020

Bush V Gore Bush lawyer Ginsberg has detailed just how nearly impossible it would be for them to steal PA. Not sure why she is fear mongering this.

DeminPennswoods

(15,278 posts)
46. Fearmongering equals ratings
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 09:52 AM
Nov 2020

It's nothing more than that. FWIW, Chris Hayes was in a panic about it, too, a couple days ago and actually interviewed Gellman.

Gellman isn't a lawyer or a constitutional law scholar. He's a very good national security reporter and has broken his share of important stories in that arena, but as posted above, his story in The Atlantic was nothing but speculative clickbait.

Ms. Toad

(34,062 posts)
12. I had precisely this argument with my former Con Law professor
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:03 PM
Nov 2020

(we became a colleagues of before he retired a couple of years ago). We've been meeting regularly throughout the election with a small group - most of whom have legal experience in a variety of settings - including the DOJ.

I took the position advocated by Tribe, et al. My former professor is not so sure, with the make up of the Supreme Court now, that it would prevail. The DOJ attorney in the bunch (with 2-3 decades of experience) is not either.

Both are, at this point, relatively certain the Supreme Court will not step in - but only because the margin of victory is so large and involves several states. Not because the legal theory will not ultiamately prevail if it reaches the Supreme Court in a case they are willing to take (a Bush v. Gore kind of case).

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,325 posts)
31. I think we would be closer to being in trouble if it were down to one state.
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 12:10 AM
Nov 2020

And even then, the republicans that control Pennsylvania would have to play along. If trump’s marketing ploy was better they might not be able to pass up the opportunity.

Once again we are saved by trump being a fat lazy trust fund buffoon. (And Georgia and Arizona - thank you Stacy Abrams, Native Americans, and Latino activists)

But still...

Like Ginsburg’s seat, the “precious” would be hard to resist if it were down to Pennsylvania.


Any state or federal statute could be tossed by the Supreme Court if they decided a strict reading of Article II - choosing electors. So it wouldn’t matter what the State Constitution or the previous case law said.

In Smiley v. Holm cited in the article above, the Supreme Court overruled the Minnesota Supreme Court allowing for the legislature to act independently of the governor.

So apparently the “Legislature is Supreme in choosing electors” idea isn’t a new one.

Ms. Toad

(34,062 posts)
33. Correct - the argument/discussion was prior to the election,
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 12:30 AM
Nov 2020

and the Thursday immediately following when it was not yet clear how it woudl come out. Both suggested it was a likely outcome if there was only one state in dispute and any legitimate reason to question the results.

But even if they decline to take it because it would require issuing an advisory opinion, the legal question is still out there. No Supreme Court has yet accepted it - but (in the opinion of my learned friends) there are at least 4 justices who might now be inclined to accept it. So Maddow is not uninformed as to this question.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,325 posts)
36. Yeah, Loyola Law School put out a paper a year ago ...
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 01:01 AM
Nov 2020

... laying out the Pennsylvania scenario with an assumed (as a place holder) Elizabeth Warren as the Democratic candidate. Pre pandemic they were talking about the Democratic candidate making up a red mirage deficit more along the lines of HRC picking up 23,000 votes post election night. What was Biden’s deficit? 500,000?

One thing for certain they were right about: he was going to try it.

Had it been closer...

Silver Gaia

(4,542 posts)
13. I noticed this, too.
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:03 PM
Nov 2020

I think she is probably not ready to be back. Too emotional, not thinking clearly like we have come too expect from her.

DarthDem

(5,255 posts)
15. No one failed to provide her with the bigger picture
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:08 PM
Nov 2020

Rachel is extremely intelligent and a wonderful person and Democratic advocate. She is also quite often a doomsayer and a pessimist in the extreme. That approach is also very appealing to her audience, handily.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
18. Another Hair On Fire Couple Of Segments
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:16 PM
Nov 2020

She did the same thing election night and Nicolle had to step in and pull her back from the edge

Polly Hennessey

(6,793 posts)
20. She does tend to be pessimistic at times.
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:24 PM
Nov 2020

When she does that, I usually skip her program. I think it is her nature to look on the dark side.

23. I just can't deal with her trademark repetitiveness
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:29 PM
Nov 2020

The same sentence....over and over and over. Watched 15 minutes tonight after a long absence and - yup - still can’t stand it. Oh well, she has her fans and it works for them. Just not my cup of tea.

BigDemVoter

(4,149 posts)
35. "Lots of breaking news!"
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 12:57 AM
Nov 2020

She takes an hour to say what could be said in 10 minutes. I do agree with her, but I don't much ike watching her anymore.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
52. I personally like the way Rachel builds her arguments
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 04:15 PM
Nov 2020

I am a former college debater and I am now a lawyer. It is hard building a strong argument and repitition helps. Rachel is actually very good at structuring strong arguments

doc03

(35,325 posts)
26. I watched part of her show the last couple nights she seems to be pushing the idea
Fri Nov 20, 2020, 11:44 PM
Nov 2020

Trump can flip electors, for ratings, I think she knows it is BS. I have seen several people on CNN and MSNBC
that are supposed to be experts on the subject one has him stealing the election the next says there is no way.
I switched to Don Lemon on CNN is isn't so damn depressing.

George II

(67,782 posts)
47. Sensationalist "Headline". The next two T6 (or whatever it is) videos on Youtube are titled:
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 09:53 AM
Nov 2020

Brian Williams: "Killing People is Beautiful"
Bernie Sanders: Being a Woman is NOT ENOUGH!

These are irresponsible (and incorrect) headlines meant to attract clicks.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
55. Fox Host Argues Trump Doesn't Need Court Evidence To Steal Swing States From Biden
Mon Nov 30, 2020, 03:03 PM
Nov 2020

Do you tire of being wrong? Rachel is not like Ailes and your claims are false


radius777

(3,635 posts)
32. +1. Rachel is brilliant but also anxious, sometimes clouds her viewpoint.
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 12:24 AM
Nov 2020

•The Constitution grants legislatures the right to decide how to appoint the electors.
•Any law relating to an election can only be made prior to the election.
•All 50 state legislatures have decided that the people, through their votes, determine which party will appoint the electors.
•Legislatures can only regain the right to appoint electors directly should the election 'fail' and be unable to be certified.
•As long as the election results can be certified - meaning that there was no widespread fraud and/or negligence and the vote can be reasonably trusted - then courts will step in and force certification should rogue officials arbitrarily decide not to certify.
•Minor irregularities that occur in any election cannot stop certification.
•Conspiracy theories, conjecture, hearsay etc cannot stop certification.
•Any attempts by rogue officials or legislators to interfere with the certification is illegal.

In short, Trump and his allies are putting on political theatre to string their reality-denying base along.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,325 posts)
34. I agree with everything you wrote 100%
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 12:57 AM
Nov 2020

But I also agree that everything past your initial bullet point could be wiped away with a strict interpretation of that same initial bullet point.

The current court has already signaled a desire to use that strict interpretation of elector choosing language . That would include overruling State Statutes, federal statutes, and State Supreme Courts.

If we were down to Pennsylvania, and trump did a better job sowing doubt and confusion,
we might have a big problem. Thankfully we are not and Trump’s crack squad of Rudy “Bat boy” Giuliani blundered at every step. In their defense, their idiot employer doesn’t know when to quit and he has never been shy about making his attorneys look like fools.

It could all come down to Amy “crazy eyes” Barrett, Clarence “own the libs” Thomas, Samual “my mommy wants me to ban abortion” Alito and Brett “I get the last fucking laugh” Kavanaugh. Plus maybe Neil “the thief” Gorsuch.


I truly believe Georgia and Arizona saved us from a Constitutional crisis. Without those two states, Trump’s team could have focused on Pennsylvania. And maybe some A-team lawyers might have taken the reins if there was a fighting chance.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
40. I doubt even far right justices would go along with that,
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 02:15 AM
Nov 2020

as they would be fearful that if in the future Dems overtake swing state legislatures we would give the states (and the presidency) to the Dem candidate. The Texas legislature is not far away from becoming blue. Presidential elections would basically have no meaning, as it would be known ahead of time (based upon whichever party controls enough of the swing state legislatures) would win the presidency. Neither party would go for that.

From everything I've seen from both conservative and liberal election experts - the bullet points I listed are generally accepted - that power to appoint the electors flows from the Constitution through the legislatures through the people and finally through the parties.

Conservatives courts do take a stricter (voter suppresive) view of election laws. They overturned several state liberal court rulings that allowed late arriving mail-in ballots due to covid, on the basis that only the legislature can make election law. But the conservative courts did not say (or imply) that legislatures can do whatever they want whenever they want (such as arbitrarily appointing electors in contradiction to existing laws).

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
38. Giuliani's demented 'strike force' is fighting to overturn the election-
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 01:56 AM
Nov 2020

Rachel is aware of the legal barriers to trump's scheme to overturn the election and Rachel is correct to be worried. trump is going to test these legal barriers and there are no gurantees that trump will not be successful Remember that trump is still an idiot and I doubt that he can pull this stunt off but this does not mean that a future intelligent authoratarian might not be successful.




Having lost over and over again in court, Trump and his team have switched to their Plan B, which, as longtime Democratic strategist Chris Marshall spelled out in detail in Salon on Thursday, is to delay the certification of the vote in certain states and try to get Republican legislatures to assign electors to vote for Donald Trump instead of the actual winner, Joe Biden. This is based on the theory that if they can create enough chaos around the election results, Republican loyalists will rise to the occasion and “save democracy” from the Democrats, who are allegedly stealing the election.

This idea has been pushed by conservative talk show host Mark Levin and picked up by the right wing as a way to keep their beloved president in office for at least four more years. It’s a theory that is very unlikely to prevail, particularly since the Supreme Court just decided a case on “faithless electors” last July, in which the justices made it very clear that whatever the founders may have anticipated in the 18th century, our democracy today demands that electors express the will of the people. It will take some convoluted intellectual gyrations for them to conclude that state officials can simply change the results at their discretion.....

If that doesn’t work, the “strike force” are also talking about a Plan C, which would be to delay the vote certification for so long that the states can’t send Biden’s required 270 electors to Congress by the deadline, which under the 12th Amendment to the Constitution would throw the election to the House, where every state’s delegation gets one vote. As luck would have it Republicans hold 26 of the 50 delegations. Surprise!

Is any of this remotely possible? Sure. It’s unlikely, but it’s possible. It’s tempting to think this is all so nuts that it could never possibly happen, but we thought everything Donald Trump has done over the past five years was nuts, and here we are. All our hand-wringing about this plot being un-American and destructive to our democracy is sadly irrelevant — not just to the preposterous Giuliani and the equally preposterous Trump but to the entire Republican Party. They have learned the power of total shamelessness, and it is profound. I would never count them out.

Like Rachel, I am worried. Legal barriers work only to the extent that the courts and the public respect such barriers. trump is going to push against these barriers and I believe that he will lose.

I note that Prof. Michael Beschloss is also worried https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-uses-power-of-presidency-to-try-to-overturn-the-election-and-stay-in-office/2020/11/19/bc89caa6-2a9f-11eb-8fa2-06e7cbb145c0_story.html?fbclid=IwAR0sEwKAVH0_rdY6g9ZGpqxB6hgurlz8U16J97Vp23g53e03m_x2_hRa6-g

These are the words and actions of an attempted coup, according to historians and other experts.

“We have never seen anything like this before,” historian and author Michael Beschloss said. “This is a president abusing his very great powers to try to stay in office, even though it is obvious to everyone that he has been defeated in the polls. That is a prospect that terrified most of the founders.”

Beschloss added, “I don’t want to be alarmist, but I do think it’s our job as citizens to keep watch on every one of these things with an eye to that ultimate dread of the founders, which is that a president rejected by the voters would use his powers to try to stay in office anyway.”

Rachel and Beschloss are correct to worry. I personally believe that these efforts will fail. The fact that Georgia certified the vote was important today. However we need to heed Rachel and be prepared to fight back.

David__77

(23,370 posts)
59. It's important to focus on this for multiple reasons.
Mon Nov 30, 2020, 07:23 PM
Nov 2020

First - there is a possibility that it will be successful, however remote.

Second - it is needed to for all elected officials to be submitted to a test: do you support democratic norms? Those who don't pass that test should be clearly identified. Many Republicans wish not to be submitted to that test and bide their time - that's no good.

Third - there is a pro-fascist mass movement that must be exposed and opposed, and finally defeated such that it does not emerge into the political mainstream again.

lostnfound

(16,173 posts)
42. Jfc y'all give her a break. It's a miracle she's back working now
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 07:39 AM
Nov 2020

After what she has been through.
Gonna take a little time for her to sift through the pile of news to get the gestalt of the thing
She has been off since before the election

OnDoutside

(19,953 posts)
44. Oh how we laughed at the very thought of Trump becoming President in 2016. Four years later, people
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 09:42 AM
Nov 2020

are laughing at the very thought that Trump might even TRY to overturn the election. He IS trying, whether he succeeds is a different story, but it's important to take this seriously. Rachel has consistently said to watch what he does, not what he says, and her comments are based on what he's actively trying to do, what he clearly has been planning to do. What will probably turn out to be his undoing, was losing Georgia, but have no doubt they had a strategy coming into this.

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
50. trump is still trying to overturn the results of the election
Sat Nov 21, 2020, 03:53 PM
Nov 2020

I strongly believe that trump will not succeed but I will feel a great better when the Michigan certification is final . trump is doing his best to either get the GOP state legislature to put their own delegation of electors or to delay the selection of electors. We need to be viligent





Rachel was correct to point out that trump will not stop trying to overturn the results of the election. I do not believe that she was being an alarmist

Gothmog

(145,130 posts)
54. "Next time, Americans might not be so lucky."
Wed Nov 25, 2020, 02:45 AM
Nov 2020

trump tested the system and so far it has held. Next time we may not be lucky enough to have an idiot try to push a coup


Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Sad to see Rachel spreadi...