The MAGAt mindset is not just for those with little or no education.

[no_hypocrisy]

I'm saddened and concerned about a close friend. We're both attorneys and have worked on several cases together. Almost a symbiotic relationship where one of us will see something the other has missed, whether it's law, fact, and/or analysis. We just work so well together. When she gets excited or passionate, I can wait for her to calm down and we continue.

Today, I got a phonecall from her and she was almost beside herself about Trump, voting fraud, and the Election. She doesn't believe it was a fair election (e.g., Pennsylvania and Michigan). She cited Giuliani, Powell, and Trump talking points. I asked where she got her information and she immediately decried Mainstream Media, CNN, MSNBC, NPR. She watches FOX News, Newsmax and reads them online. And believes it all. Well, not so much says they're factual, but she totally believes that the issues are unsettled and that Trump may be robbed of a majority vote.

As an aside, she is troubled by "undocumented people" getting Medicare, Social Security, student loans/grants, etc. And the thing is that she is an excellent adult school teacher of ESL (English as a Second Language). I mean, her students must be part of the demographic that she's criticizing. (By this time, she's nearly shouting into the phone.)

I am the polar opposite. I've watched/listened to ALL of the news since 1998. I decide whom to consider and whom to discard. I also confirm stuff from several news sources.

In short, I just can't talk to her anymore. I'm sighing. An attorney (with bachelors and masters degrees as well as law school) in a New York State county close to the City and she's literally drunk the Kool Aid. She won't listen or consider the other positions.

[elleng]

1. An attorney troubled by "undocumented people" getting Medicare, Social Security, student loans/grant

Sorry. It's more than a puzzlement.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Thanks, that's my problem too.

The inconsistency, the hypocrisy. The blindness. The calloused heart.

AND she is first generation American. Both parents immigrated from Italy in the Fifties.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. People like that are the ones I really, really don't understand.

I get that someone without much education, exposure to diverse people or ideas, and too much religion might be susceptible to Trumpism, but lawyers are trained to exercise critical thinking and look at different sides of all situations. I can even understand that an educated, intelligent person could be a conservative. But how on earth could they swallow bizarre, completely insane conspiracy theories perpetrated by the likes of Q Anon?

[MyOwnPeace]

22. With 'ya, Velveteen...........

The "typical" MAGATS you can get and understand, but someone that is "educated?"
Really, what is it that they don't see - or do see and we don't?
And a person (lawyer) that spends SO MUCH TIME in a system where respect and formality is expected - how can you EVER begin to like an ignorant hog like BunkerBoy?
And the friend is a "she?"
Did she EVER watch IQ45 react to some of the media people at his press conferences?

TRULY DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!!!!

[Laelth]

4. I would be interested in her family.

How are her siblings doing? Her nieces, her nephews, her children, the people she went to school with? What’s her DEEP story? What makes the Trump “perpetual victimhood” narrative so appealing to her? For whom is she fighting, really?

Without some answers to those questions, I doubt that I would be able to talk to her, either.



-Laelth

[no_hypocrisy]

6. As I said (above), she is first generation American.

Both her parents came from Italy in the Fifties, without education and knowing English.

[Laelth]

7. Are they thriving? Has the American dream come true for them?

Or has the American dream proven to be a vicious lie (from their point of view)? If the latter, that might explain their attitudes. Were they Fascists who followed Mussolini? That would explain a lot.



-Laelth

[no_hypocrisy]

8. Her father opened a small restaurant in Suffern, NY and it was successful.

He even purchased a couple of investment buildings, one residential, the other commercial.

Both parents are gone; they died in their early Sixties.

[Laelth]

9. Fascinating. n/t

-Laelth

[Mariana]

5. Lots of intelligent, educated people are susceptible to propaganda. nt.

[moonscape]

10. An old close friend of mine from university days

is a retired attorney living in NYC and CT. We were friends for 50 years, went through a number of things together. We dated briefly in college, only later revealed he was gay. He is HIV positive but the cocktail he's on has kept him alive all these years. He was in a coma once from the infection Jim Henson died from and almost didn't make it. He was emotionally right at my side when I got my cancer dx. We went to Paris together as friends.

Anyway, he's smart, an attorney, gay, NYC environs, and a MAGA. I was not able to deal with it and became unable to return his calls and emails and wrote a final one thanking him for the years of friendship and that I wished to remember all our good times, mutual support, etc, but I would not be able to respond to his contact attempts and wished him all the best. Something like that. He wrote back about Pelosi being a bitch and 'GO TRUMP!' and I put him on ignore in my email so I'd not see them.

It made me sad on so many levels and took a lot for me to do what I did, but if someone is a MAGA, I'm out of words and excuses and just can't.

You're right that MAGA is not an intelligence test.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. Very true - yet they succumbed to the most vicious propaganda.

At that time Germany had just gotten its ass kicked in WWI and its economy was in shambles, and Hitler found a scapegoat - the Jews. And smart, educated people who should have known better responded in the most terrible way. In the US we thought we were better, but evidently we're not. And education isn't the cure.

[Shermann]

12. I have a few friends like this

We have political debates and manage to keep it mutually respectful.

When things get a bit ugly, we'll just talk about something else. If you really are close friends, then there should be a lot of other stuff you have in common.

The CNN hate thing is a head-scratcher for me. I accept that they have a modest left bias, but they are not as far to the left as Fox is to the right. Most conservatives believe Jeff Zucker is a political activist whose primary goal is to run hit pieces on Trump. They just bandy this about like it is a self-evident truth. The only real evidence I've seen is a 10-second hot mic recording that was frankly pretty unconvincing. He may not like Trump, but that doesn't necessarily prove he is running a billion dollar company to suit his personal partisan whims. There is a serious association fallacy going on there. I'm guessing Warner Media would probably have something to say about that if he was.

[PirateRo]

13. You should state as much to her

Point out to her she is influenced by propaganda and that she should do the proper work to independently run down not only the story but the author and the news source itself. Likely, this will be the first time she’s heard this.

The thing I never allow is the “We should just never discuss this topic”. That just leaves this thing between two people and begins to create a list of forbidden topics that serve nothing but to create distance between. If we’re bordering this, it’s a shrill cry to time management to stop investing precious life there.

I will point people in the right direction, if I think that person worthy of any investment of my time but I do expect follow-thru. I have had some success with some people but not many. There was one fellow who would show some improvement and then slide back and this pattern repeated. I told him my time was precious to me and I politely asked him to avoid me in the future for anything but work-related matters. We were still friendly, we’d say good morning and all, but that’s where the conversation ended. I did notice him listen intently during conversations I might have with others, but we never resumed further contact. For others, I’d receive a comment about how they’d never thought about the topic in this way or that and for still others, I’d get comments about being very different from most people.

I tend to view relationships on a spectrum and if I see someone not investing the time or worse, demanding I invest my time or someone struggling with ideas that seem to cause them harm, I taper off or quickly end things. I don’t view myself as anyone’s teacher, although, I will invest more time in those showing interest or promise.

The point is you can only go so far with some people. If they get it, great, if they don’t, you may need to make a choice.

[MaryMagdaline]

14. When we want to believe something we become geniuses in convincing ourselves

It’s not that hard to understand. Our interests lie in X. We will convince ourselves that X is true and just.

[TwilightZone]

15. There are *way* more people like that than we want to admit.

We - and by "we", I mean many Democrats and others on the left - routinely lump all Trump supporters together as dumb, ignorant, racist rednecks, when in reality a not-insignificant chunk of his support is similar to that of your friend.

In my experience, it's often almost entirely about where people get their information. I have a similarly-close friend who is also an attorney and one of the smarter people I know. He watches Fox and that is the basis of much of his approach to many issues. He buys into the nonsense because he doesn't seek out alternatives.

[cachukis]

16. Interesting analysis.

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-why-did-74-million-americans-vote-for-trump-this-jewish-sociologist-has-the-answer-1.9330836

[russiamommy]

17. I don't understand it either

I just don’t get educated people that are Trump supporters, but there are a lot of them. I work with a man - Ivy League educated attorney, as is his wife. He’s brilliant and I have deep respect for him. I actually love him to death - and his wife. Two of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet. They’ve been there for me through some very difficult times. They’d both literally give you the shirts off their backs. He’s also got a great sense of humor. He makes me laugh. 😃 But they’re both Trump supporters. I honestly thought he’d get over it after the last four years, but he voted for him again. I think the biggest reason is abortion. He and his wife are both devout Catholics and strongly anti-abortion. He also has a strong Libertarian streak.

That being said, even though we completely disagree on politics, we’re still friends. We can respectfully agree to disagree and it doesn’t interfere with the relationship otherwise. We can actually joke with each other over these things and move on to other issues. I think he’s different than your typical MAGATs. I have other now former friends that we were never able to get over this divide. They were also less educated and more typical Trump supporters.

Not really sure where I’m going with this, but I do think there are a lot of very well educated people that support him. But I don’t think that category of MAGATs is buying into all the conspiracy theories. They’re a different, much more tolerable version of his supporters.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

27. Any time someone claims to be opposed to abortion,

ask them their stand on the death penalty. Then look confused.

Then ask them if they support free pre-natal care. Stuff like that. Ask them again why they oppose abortion but will do nothing to help women with unwanted pregnancies to carry the baby to term healthfully.

I often point out that someone who opposes abortion shouldn't have one. And don't assume they can make such judgements for anyone else.

[russiamommy]

28. I agree

My usual question is “How many kids have you adopted?” It usually shuts them up. (My daughter is adopted from Russia. Hence the screen name.)

[Septua]

18. Brainwashing Boggles the Mind...

She watches FOX News, Newsmax and reads them online. And believes it all.

In short, I just can't talk to her anymore. I'm sighing. An attorney (with bachelors and masters degrees as well as law school) in a New York State county close to the City and she's literally drunk the Kool Aid. She won't listen or consider the other positions.

I gave up debating with them...same as I don't want to hear anything positive about Trump, they won't listen to anything negative. And some I've talked to don't know that Trump has made 20K+ false or factually distorted comments. One guy (a lawyer) didn't know the Dow Jones was at 18K or that unemployment was under 5% when Trump was inaugurated. Some say, "Well, he's better than Hillary would have been."

But if you don't watch the fake news, then chances are, you won't know that Trump is self-serving, ethically bankrupt, corrupt, incapable of telling the truth and authoritarian driven. It's sad, to say the least.

[Doreen]

19. Hate for others has nothing to do with education or lack there of.

Donny gave all of those hateful people free rein to voice their hate to take action with their hate.

[no_hypocrisy]

20. You know what really bugs me?

She's trained for CRITICAL THINKING! Sorting out facts from fiction. Legal analysis. She's got this -- except where Trump is concerned. It's as though he hired her as legal counsel.

Yeah, it's THAT bad.

[moondust]

21. It happens.

~
Reportedly more than 7% of all German physicians became members of the Nazi party during World War II, a far higher percentage than the general population.[2] In 1942 more than 38,000 German doctors, half the total number of doctors, had joined the Nazi party.[3][4] While most of these doctors were physicians, some held doctorates (PhD.'s) in biology, anthropology, or similarly related fields.
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazi_doctors

Also:

[no_hypocrisy]

23. But one can make the argument that in order to work at Third Reich Hospitals,

all doctors had to be members of The Party. Just like lawyers had to be Members in order to practice (Nazi) law.

Otherwise, it was illegal to practice one's profession.

In my situation, it's collegial. Nothing professional. My friend just gravitated independently to this new position.

[moondust]

25. I added a Hall of Shame

to my post above for a little more context.

[no_hypocrisy]

26. Essentially we are in agreement.

[andym]

29. Fox News was created by Roger Ailes to be GOP propaganda-- it's provable

Tell her
1) Fox News was created to be a Republican propaganda outlet
2) Roger Ailes planned GOP TV for a long time and GOP stalwarts Haldemann and Sununu were well aware of it and recorded it in documents before Fox was created.
3) https://www.businessinsider.com/roger-ailes-blueprint-fox-news-2011-6
"The documents—drawn mostly from the papers of Nixon chief of staff and felon H.R. Haldeman and Bush chief of staff John Sununu—reveal Ailes to be a tireless television producer and joyful propagandist. He was a forceful advocate for the power of television to shape the political narrative, and he reveled in the minutiae constructing political spectacles—stage-managing, for instance, the lighting of the White House Christmas tree with painstaking care. He frequently floated ideas for creating staged events and strategies for manipulating the mainstream media into favorable coverage and used his contacts at the networks to sniff out the emergence of threatening narratives and offer advice on how to snuff them out—warning Bush, for example, to lay off the golf as war in the Middle East approached because journalists were starting to talk. There are also occasional references to dirty political tricks.:

She can then go to the actual documents by Haldeman and and Ailes:
https://www.nixonlibrary.gov/sites/default/files/forresearchers/find/histories/haldeman-1988-04-12.pdf
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5024551-A-Plan-for-Putting-the-GOP-on-the-News.html

[czarjak]

30. Admitting you're wrong is mission impossible for them. Ask 'em.