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Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:04 AM

We need a New Constitutional Amendment

There should be a new amendment to the Constitution:


An impeached president loses the power of pardon.



We have to eliminate this level of corruption in the white house for future generations. There has to be some consequence for being impeached, even though not convicted. This is an abuse we can eliminate in the future.

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply We need a New Constitutional Amendment (Original post)
Captain Zero Dec 24 OP
Freddie Dec 24 #1
drray23 Dec 24 #2
Celerity Dec 24 #20
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #3
global1 Dec 24 #7
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #9
global1 Dec 24 #15
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #18
onenote Dec 24 #4
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #11
Towlie Dec 24 #5
global1 Dec 24 #6
MineralMan Dec 24 #8
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #12
brooklynite Dec 24 #10
StarfishSaver Dec 24 #13
sarisataka Dec 24 #14
TheFarseer Dec 24 #16
onenote Dec 24 #17
TheFarseer Dec 24 #21
JHB Dec 24 #19

Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:10 AM

1. I fear there will be more BS impeachments

Like Clinton. The Repugs will come up with any lame “reason”. Impeached AND convicted, yes.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:12 AM

2. we never will be able to pass an amendment ever again

Given how polarized the country has become and likely will be for decades to come how do you expect to get 2/3 of house and senate to approve it and then have 3/4 of states ratify it ?

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Response to drray23 (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 02:21 PM

20. +1000

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:16 AM

3. Bad move

A president who is impeached but not removed is still president with broad powers - the pardon is only one of them and, arguably, the least likely to threaten our democracy.

Moreover, a president who is impeached but not removed has essentially been acquitted of any charges, no matter how corrupt we may think he is. Do you think Clinton should have had the pardon power taken away? What if the Republican House had mounted an impeachment against Obama on some bogus charge and he was acquitted by the Senate? Should he have lost his powers?

An impeached president is still president and is entitled to exercise all of the rights and powers connected thereto unless and until he is removed from office.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:58 AM

7. If It Can Be Proven That A Person's Intention Was To Be Corrupt From The Start And In The End.....

that person would save everybody's ass so they can't be held accountable - than that is just like premeditated murder. That is out and out obstruction of justice and that person as well as all their accomplices need to be held accountable.

We need to stop making excuses for the behavior of this person over the last 4 years and put on our big boy pants and make sure that this can never ever happen again.

If we don't do that - we deserve what we have coming.

Plain and simple.

We can't sit back and say - whew - we've dodged a bullet and Trump is gone so we can look the other way now.

No - we all know that he's planning ways to either retain his power or get back into power to complete his act of destruction on this democracy. He's had a taste of what he can get away with and like a rabid killer of a dog - will be back to inflict more damage to us. He can't get that taste out of his mouth. He's sick and like Arnold - he'll be back - if in fact he's never intended to leave us in the first place.

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Response to global1 (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:18 PM

9. I agree that he is using the pardon to obstruct justice

And if there is enough evidence of a quid pro quo, he should be prosecuted for obstruction and public corruption.

But corrupt intent cannot invalidate a pardon and impeachment without conviction cannot reduce a president's powers. The Constitution does not condition pardons on the president having a valid or non-corrupt reason for them. He can do them for any reason. And impeached presidents who have not be removed continue to be president with all of the powers of the office. A bare majority of Congress cannot remove a president's powers through impeachment - that would turn the Constitution and separation of powers on their heads.

That's not making excuses for him. That's just stating the law.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:35 PM

15. Then This Needs To Be Decided In The Supreme Court....

we need to change the law or test the laws that are already in place. This needs to be challenged. The point is - that we can't just sit back now thinking that this will never happen again. Hell - we didn't think it would happen in the first place - and look where we are.

Yeah - and I know that he's stacked SCOTUS.

However, I don't think that SCOTUS wants to be associated with the kind of criminal intent of premeditated obstruction of justice.

If they go along with letting that happen - than he has succeeded and we as a democracy are doomed.

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Response to global1 (Reply #15)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 02:04 PM

18. There's nothing to be decided in the Supreme Court

The Constitution is very clear and speaks for itself.

The Supreme Court can't just change the meaning of a Constitutional provision because someone doesn't like it or challenges it. Laws can be challenged on the ground that they violate the Constitution but the Constitution is what it is and the only way to challenge it is to change it through the amendment process.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:20 AM

4. Why?

I had no problem with Clinton granting pardons after he was impeached.

Impeachment is, roughly, the equivalent of being indicted. Conviction comes from the Senate. And if you're not convicted, you get to remain president with all the powers of the presidency.

And, the Constitution isn't going to be amended.

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Response to onenote (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:23 PM

11. Under this scenario, a bare majority of Congress could kneecap a president at will

There's a reason the founders required both chambers' involvement and 2/3 Senate vote to remove a president. Otherwise, a Republican House could impeach a Democratic president by one vote and remove their powers for the rest of their term. Fortunately, it doesn't work that way.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:29 AM

5. There's a fundamental Catch-22 tripping up this proposal.

 


https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures...


If 2/3 of the politicians were willing to enact this amendment then it wouldn't be necessary to enact it.

In fact, that's an ideal illustration of what a Catch-22 is.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 11:47 AM

6. If We Can Look For Good From This 4 Year Disaster Of A Trump Administration - Trump Taught Us All...

the holes and loopholes in our Government and Constitution - as he's tested, exploited and used all of them to run his corrupt operation. He's still has 28 or so days left and who knows how many more he'll employ and exploit before he actually leaves office. I don't think he's done just yet and I believe he'll use every opportunity to take advantage until the minute, second of the day that he's removed from office.

I don't think our founding fathers that wrote the Constitution ever intended that any person that would be president would ever be able to actually - in broad daylight in front of all of us to see - bend and break laws to pad his pocketbook and destroy our government like this guy has done.

He employed the worst of the worst people to help his corruption along and promised them - either openly or covertly - that he would protect them in the end if they protected him during his long string of corruption.

You can't tell me that this guy has dementia; is clueless and doesn't ever have a plan. In my opinion - this was a well oiled operation from the start and run like a crime syndicate. This was the mafia, the cosa nostra rolled up in one - from the start and it was well executed over the span of his run in office. He set out to do this right from when he came down that elevator in Trump Tower to declare his candidacy.

In many ways - we're all responsible for what we've been through these last 4 years - because we all knew from the start what kind of person this guy was and we let it happen and unfold right before our eyes. In many ways we encouraged his behavior as we watched his crime spree unfold on the nightly cable news shows - where talking heads often provided him with the ways he could take advantage of the situation. Now you know why he watched so much TV. That's where he got many of his ideas as to how he can use the system to his advantage. The sad thing is we're still letting this happen as we helplessly watch how he's doled out these pardons saying this is what we expected that he'd do and in a sense give him our approval to get away with these atrocities. We green lighted him the whole way and he sat there saying to himself - if this is what they expect of me to do - I might as well do it.

As I eluded to in my title line in this post - we have to look for the good that we learned from this experience and if we accomplish anything from this 4 year running disaster - we have to close those holes, loopholes and shore up our Constitution so that this can never happen again to us.

If we don't do that - there will be another Trump coming down the line that maybe will even be more successful than this guy - and we won't be able to recover the next time.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:02 PM

8. It's all too easy to propose a Constitutional amendment.

However, it's extremely difficult to get one through Congress and ratified by enough states. That is a good thing, because most amendments that get proposed by lay people are not worthy of being included as part of the US Constitution. In fact, most of the ones I see have the potential for being very harmful when the party we prefer is not in power.

Fortunately, such proposals never become amendments, thank goodness.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:24 PM

12. +1

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:22 PM

10. So Bill Clinton should have been denied pardon power?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:26 PM

13. Can you imagine the havoc Republican House would have wreaked on Clinton or Obama

if they could have taken away various presidential powers guaranteed to them by the Constitution just by impeaching them with a simple majority vote?

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 12:29 PM

14. IMHO it is an extremely bad idea

To set a precedent at any level where the accused receives a penalty although there was no conviction.

I can see that spreading like oil on water until it taints the entire justice system

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 01:24 PM

16. Counter offer

A lame duck president loses the power of pardon.

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Response to TheFarseer (Reply #16)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 01:42 PM

17. So no pardons in a president's second term

Sorry. That’s too extreme a limitation. And a slippery slope. What else should a president not be allowed to do in their second term?

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Response to onenote (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 09:04 PM

21. 2nd term doesn't count as a lame duck session in my proposal

If you’ve won re-election, I assume we trust your judgment and integrity enough that you can pardon who you want. Not that is even something that would ever become law. Just me throwing crap against the wall.

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Response to Captain Zero (Original post)

Thu Dec 24, 2020, 02:16 PM

19. Every "an impeached president loses XXX power" argument encourages "strategic" impeachments

You're correct that we have to eliminate this level of corruption, but the tool you're proposing will simply become a further tool of corruption.

Remember, the corruption that has enabled everything is the structural corruption of the Republican Party. Leave that intact and "an impeached president loses XXX power" becomes a tool to strip non-corrupt presidents of their abilities. Without their corrupt lockstep and propaganda, Trump would have been removed from office, possibly years ago (assuming he had squeaked out a victory in 2016 in the first place).

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