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Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:37 PM

Harry Truman explains Socialism....




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Arrow 24 replies Author Time Post
Reply Harry Truman explains Socialism.... (Original post)
pbmus Dec 2020 OP
JHB Dec 2020 #1
My Pet Orangutan Dec 2020 #3
Hortensis Dec 2020 #10
BSdetect Dec 2020 #2
OAITW r.2.0 Dec 2020 #4
Hortensis Dec 2020 #11
brooklynite Dec 2020 #5
LanternWaste Dec 2020 #7
captain queeg Dec 2020 #6
dweller Dec 2020 #8
Hortensis Dec 2020 #12
pbmus Dec 2020 #13
Hortensis Dec 2020 #14
progressoid Dec 2020 #21
Hortensis Dec 2020 #22
progressoid Dec 2020 #23
moondust Dec 2020 #9
rockfordfile Dec 2020 #18
erronis Dec 2020 #15
Maisondeschatsnoirs Dec 2020 #16
Hortensis Dec 2020 #19
NEOBuckeye Dec 2020 #17
czarjak Dec 2020 #20
colsohlibgal Dec 2020 #24

Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:42 PM

1. He's not explaining socialism. He's explaining...

...how insanely expansive the right wing nutbar definition of 'socialism' is. Right wing nutbars, and more "reasonable" and "respectable" types who let the foamers foam because it's politically useful to them.

An insanely-expansive definition that is at the very heart of the Movement Conservatives who took control of the Republican Party and politically exterminated any apostates.

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Response to JHB (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:46 PM

3. He is certainly not explaining those who identify as socialists.

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Response to My Pet Orangutan (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:53 PM

10. Yes. Those are proven liberal progressive programs, not

extremist dreams proven not to work.

Or at least in that era they were watching tragedies play out as nations that had fallen to socialist revolutions destroyed themselves.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:42 PM

2. Get the message across now.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:50 PM

4. Even Eisenhower got this.....

If socialism is so bad, what to Republicans want? Anti-socialism? Not a long term option for any country that wants to be the Leader of the Free World.

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Response to OAITW r.2.0 (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 09:05 PM

11. None of these listed were socialized. That's why Truman made fun of

them for their silly nonsense.

The VA was our only socialized program, so of course he didn't call them dumb for trying to smear it as socialized. If they dared, considering how extremely important and extremely popular it was after two world wars.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:02 PM

5. Biden won the election by laughing off the idea that HE was a Socialist...

A lesson it would be helpful for some politicians to learn today...

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:09 PM

7. Specifically which politicians would it "be helpful" to?

The one's who successfully ran and are politicians?

Or the politicians that lost and are therefore not politicians?

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:03 PM

6. Give 'em hell Harry!

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:38 PM

8. Why Socialism ?

Albert Einstein

Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities.
As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. Only the existence of these varied, frequently conflicting, strivings accounts for the special character of a man, and their specific combination determines the extent to which an individual can achieve an inner equilibrium and can contribute to the well-being of society.
It is quite possible that the relative strength of these two drives is, in the main, fixed by inheritance. But the personality that finally emerges is largely formed by the environment in which a man happens to find himself during his development, by the structure of the society in which he grows up, by the tradition of that society, and by its appraisal of particular types of behavior. The abstract concept “society” means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations.
The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is “society” which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

snip

The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. We see before us a huge community of producers the members of which are unceasingly striving to deprive each other of the fruits of their collective labor—not by force, but on the whole in faithful compliance with legally established rules. In this respect, it is important to realize that the means of production—that is to say, the entire productive capacity that is needed for producing consumer goods as well as additional capital goods—may legally be, and for the most part are, the private property of individuals.

Much more at link
https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/

✌🏻

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Response to dweller (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 09:14 PM

12. He wrote that in 1949 but died in 1955, so he didn't live to see

Last edited Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:08 PM - Edit history (1)

all the national socialist experiments of the last century fail dreadfully, most of them becoming corrupt authoritarian states as leaders tried to keep control, both of power for themselves and their cronies and to keep the nations stumbling along without collapsing into chaos.

Speaking of, over 2 million desperate Venezuelans have migrated to Colombia, but that refuge is slamming closed. Venezuela's inflation is still among the planet's highest, socialist president Maduro has taken control of the legislature, food shortages are severe and children are dying, it's dangerous to be out on the streets, so millions of unemployed people hide inside with their children, power outages are common. And, of course, Covid is raging.

Fears grow of Venezuela malnutrition time-bomb: Aid workers warn that millions face long-term damage to health as food crisis continues

"Tengo hambre." It is a cry increasingly heard across Venezuela. As socialist president Nicolás Maduro ... battle for the country’s future amid an economic collapse that has sparked severe shortages of food, fuel and medicine, millions of people are going hungry for extended periods and risking long-term damage to their health, humanitarian organisations have warned.



Not so long ago, Venezuela had a fairly large and prosperous middle class, but they did NOT protect what they had and their days of ordering takeout on the way home from work and binge-watching cable are over.


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Response to Hortensis (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 09:49 PM

13. Which the Big Con and his trumpers and trumpets tried to do to America...

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Response to pbmus (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:03 PM

14. We already had our revolution, and peoples around the planet

have been striving to achieve what we have ever since. Our job is to protect and build on what we inherited.

Our grandparents said no to socialist and fascist extremists back in the 1930s as other nations tragically fell to the insanity of that era. Nearly a century of security and prosperity later, the insanity's back and it's still no.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 03:38 PM

21. Falling oil prices, US economic sanctions, corruption, etc.


It's a bit disingenuous to fault Venezuela's problems solely on socialism.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 04:48 PM

22. Of course it is. But it'd be outrageously dishonest

to pretend that the usual disasters that predictably follow downgrading national economies to the dysfunctions of socialism had nothing to do with it. Don't bother blaming the U.S. for turning the wealthiest nation in South America into a beyond-dreadful humanitarian disaster. Falling oil prices should have caused serious economic problems and years of recovery, not national social and economic collapse and impending mass starvation.

This is the kind of socialist horror people living in advanced nations in the first half of the 20th century would read about in Time Magazine. Venezuela's not missing the usual police state stage either, and let's hope the syndrome of national collapse doesn't go on to include the too typical genocide.

I mentioned picking up takeout after work and binge watching video because their large middle class lived modern lives like us. Water's what came out of taps. Always. How else? Like us they had no simpler, agrarian way of life to fall back on after they let extremists get control and fuck over the complex support systems that make modern life possible.

They didn't protect what they had.



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Response to Hortensis (Reply #22)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 05:47 PM

23. The police state stage is not unique to socialism.

Nigeria, Egypt, Congo, etc. all are arguably worse police states. Is socialism to blame for their plight as well?

Most of Venezuela's neighbors have a higher poverty rates and yet aren't socialist.

Perhaps - I'm just spit ballin' here - but perhaps the word socialism is too often used as a simplistic scapegoat for something that is actually quite complex.


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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 08:44 PM

9. And Nazis.

National Socialist German Workers' Party

So much for labels.

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Response to moondust (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 11:34 PM

18. They were never truly socialist. They just used the word because socialists at the time was liked

The Nazis were just your typical fascists.

The Democratic socialist wereare the good guys.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:17 PM

15. That's the purpose: repeat a positive term as if it's negative, over and over

And eventually even the supporters of the term will feel it is tinged.

Progressive
Liberal
Open-minded
Caring
Ethical
Socialist

even, gasp, Conservative

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:25 PM

16. Anyone who can't tell the difference between authoritarian socialism and democratic socialism

 

might as well be a trumpublican.

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Response to Maisondeschatsnoirs (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 06:30 AM

19. Well, for one no nations exist with democratic socialist governments.

There've been plenty that either started as or declined into police states.

Speaking of, if a democratic socialist nation were the real thing, democratic, how long would it last before "the people," ungrateful hounds that we are, voted for return to the greater freedoms and prosperity of capitalism?

How about the European social democracy model? They use their wealthy capitalism-based economies to fund generous socialized public benefit programs. It's not socialism, it's just an expansion of what we already have here in the U.S. (the VA's our only one right now), but it works (!) and people over there really like it.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:30 PM

17. Charles Koch's worst nightmare.

Being forced to pay taxes and being treated like a commoner. Actually *gasp* having to share resources like health care and retirement benefits with other people.

The worst fear of the 1%ers is that people will revolt against them. Their greatest success has been pulling the wool over the eyes of the people and conning them into believing that what’s good for the 1%ers is also in their best interest.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 01:17 PM

20. Truth-Telling Hell.

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Response to pbmus (Original post)

Wed Dec 30, 2020, 10:02 PM

24. Harry Nails It

Socialism can devolve into authoritarianism but not necessarily.

If you want a great example of Democratic Socialism working just look at Scandinavia.

Their systems beats our runaway Capitalism handily. They are free to vote it out but why would they? They don’t give massive tax breaks to people who don’t need them like McConnell and his Party.

Democratic Socialism would change this country drastically for the better.....But the Richie Riches like the Kochs don’t want it.

Two great book to read are “Dark Money” by Jane Mayer and “Democracy In Chains” by Nancy McLean (SP?).



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