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Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:26 PM

 

Here's a way that Congress can invoke the 14th Amendment insurrection clause against Trump

As I and others have been saying (with some pushback), Congress cannot unilaterally apply the 14th Amendment insurrection clause by declaring by majority vote that Trump is guilty of insurrection and disqualify him from public office. Such an action would violate the 14th Amendment Due Process Clause and would never be permitted by the courts. A court would have to determine that Trump is guilty of insurrection before the 14th Amendment insurrection clause could be invoked against him.

Jennifer Rubin has suggested a process that Congress can use to make this happen - Professor Laurence Tribe concurs.


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Reply Here's a way that Congress can invoke the 14th Amendment insurrection clause against Trump (Original post)
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 OP
Cha Feb 2021 #1
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #2
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #3
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #4
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #5
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #9
paleotn Feb 2021 #20
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #22
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #24
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #32
Upthevibe Feb 2021 #6
TwilightZone Feb 2021 #10
servermsh Feb 2021 #7
TwilightZone Feb 2021 #13
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #15
Laura PourMeADrink Feb 2021 #33
msfiddlestix Feb 2021 #8
electric_blue68 Feb 2021 #12
sfstaxprep Feb 2021 #14
msfiddlestix Feb 2021 #17
Hoyt Feb 2021 #11
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #16
Hoyt Feb 2021 #18
TwilightZone Feb 2021 #19
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #21
scarletwoman Feb 2021 #23
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #25
scarletwoman Feb 2021 #26
customerserviceguy Feb 2021 #27
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #28
customerserviceguy Feb 2021 #29
StarfishSaver Feb 2021 #30
customerserviceguy Feb 2021 #31
marie999 Feb 2021 #34
marie999 Feb 2021 #35

Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:28 PM

1. Rt TY! I Hope So!

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:30 PM

2. Did Laurence Answer How A Case Appealed To The Supreme Court Is Going To Work For Us?

Last time I checked, there were 3 Drumpf appointments on the Court, and a total of 3 Liberal judges out of 9.

What am I missing?

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Response to sfstaxprep (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:32 PM

3. Why do you assume that all 6 conservative justices would vote in Trump's favor?

 

There is no way around taking this to court - it's the only way the 14th Amendment insurrection clause can be used against Trump.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:38 PM

4. Why Do You Assume That They Would?

I just don't see these things ever go our way, on something this big, in a court as lopsided as what we're dealing with.

You can assume Thomas will never vote in our favor, and I struggle to see how we could get the vote of any of the 3 Drumpf appointments. That is 4 votes, meaning we need the remaining 2 repub judges.

I realize it may sound this way, but I don't think that should be a reason not to pursue it, if it's something that is legal and could go through. I just feel like anything which is going to ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court as currently constituted, is as much a longshot as getting 17 honorable repubs to vote against Sedition apparently was.

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Response to sfstaxprep (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:40 PM

5. I don't assume they will or won't

 

I have no idea how they'll vote. Neither do you.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:47 PM

9. OK, So I Agree

It should be pursued, if there is a chance it could happen.

I'll just be shocked.....which certainly won't be more than I've been shocked on an hourly basis for the last 5 years.....if we were able to rid ourselves of this Asshole, politically speaking, and hopefully prevent his Spawn from achieving any traction, should they decide to reach political office, based upon the name that should be shamed.

I will be thrilled more than you could imagine, if that were to occur, so I hope I'm wrong. I can take it.

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Response to sfstaxprep (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 11:10 PM

20. Why wouldn't Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and even Barrett not side with the others?

They have on Trump v. NY in 2020 and Trump v. Vance, Trump v. Mazars in 2019. Bostock v. Clayton County was a massive loss for the Trump admin and his core constituency, the religious right. Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion on that one. There's really only 2 reliable judges for the Donnie and the Repukes, Alito and Thomas. The rest lean left or are unreliable.

Why folks think someone given a life time appointment owes anything to the appointee is beyond me. That's the whole point of life time appointments. It's not like they're golf buddies or something. Hell, Donnie has no fucking clue who these people were, other than they were names on a list he was given and the one he should pick was underlined.

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Response to paleotn (Reply #20)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 11:16 PM

22. I Feel Like Impeachment & Conviction Was Best Shot

Sure, try other things. But I feel the same impossibility will exist in the Supreme Court, as existed this past week.

I'm just tired of putting stock in longshots which are beyond our control, anymore. Our side did it's best, and still we're where we are. This isn't even like an election, where we can get out the vote. We're dealing with not only odds stacked against us, but a Game That Is Rigged. And it will be no different with a 6-3 Supreme Court.

Will be glad to be wrong. More glad than you could imagine.

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Response to sfstaxprep (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:03 AM

24. Conviction was the longest shot of all

 

There was never even the remotest chance that that would happen.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 01:14 AM

32. It Was What Should Have Happened Though

But we have a bunch of Gutless Cowards in control of our government, backed by around 1/3rd of the public.

What happened on 1/6 was the most deserving of conviction of Anything in our nation's history. That we couldn't achieve that, renders the whole process meaningless IMO. It shows that we are a Failed nation.

That we could not protect ourselves against the ONE THING the Founding Fathers feared most, and wanted above all, to protect this country from, shows how utterly pathetic and flawed we are as a country.

That Piece Of Shit continues to get away with everything he does. Sure, he was defeated in November, but his presence is still felt, and will continue to be felt. There is no moving past this, albeit some will say it's time to move on. This is not like GB Sr. losing to Bill Clinton. Hell, we couldn't even move past that, with his Spawn stealing an election 8 years later. But at least we could move on from Sr. The cancer is still spread throughout the body, and I feel like a golden opportunity to contain it, is now lost.

If only Covid had got to him last April, before there were treatments capable of saving his miserable life. Perhaps that was our best opportunity to rid ourselves of his evil.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:40 PM

6. StarfishSaver...Re: The 14 Amendment, the 3rd Article.....I've tried to

get as much information about this option as I can. Thank you for posting.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:44 PM

7. This would "delay the Biden agenda"

Any such action in Congress is subject to the filibuster. It would take time on the floor of the Senate. Senators like Rand Paul and Lindsey Graham would delight in the filibuster.

How the heck is that not "delaying the Biden agenda" as we've been told ad nauseum by the media, by Democrats and by some here?

What should have happened was a Rule XI committee in the Senate to gather evidence for impeachment. That was the right and moral path.

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Response to servermsh (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:53 PM

13. "gather evidence for impeachment"

An impeachment that would have still failed, regardless of the amount of evidence.

There was more than enough evidence for any rational human being to determine he was guilty. In fact, many if not most of the 43 who voted to acquit thought he was guilty, too. They let him off on a technicality, as was always the plan.

More evidence wouldn't have mattered.

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Response to servermsh (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:53 PM

15. I think the House managers, House and Senate know better than any of us what SHOULD have happened

 

I trust that their judgment about what SHOULD have happened and what the "right and moral path" is much better than the armchair experts who don't know a fraction of what they know and don't have the responsibility of having to make difficult choices in very complicated circumstances.

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Response to servermsh (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 01:51 AM

33. Why didn't we do that? Once the Republicans set up their "out"

- that you can't impeach a former president, why didn't we slow it all way down and investigate for impeachment? Refresh my memory, I missed that.

And the plan for half day important business half day holding the devil to justice?

And I mean this with all due respect to everyone involved, how can you not have time for real witnesses because you are anxious to get Biden's important work done, but have time to pursue other trump punishment?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:46 PM

8. What the hell, it's worth a try. What more can we lose by trying?

It's possible we could win this. After all, how did all those right wing Trump appointed Judges on the Federal Courts and SCOTUS feel about what happened just across the street from where their cloistered asses sit? It could have happened there too.

Even they must have been shocked and afraid for their own well being. Unless they're not human. That's always a possibility I suppose. But assuming most of them are at least human.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:51 PM

12. You have some good points.

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Response to msfiddlestix (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:53 PM

14. You Can Be Human & Be A Monster At Same Time

Hitler was Human.

Mussolini was Human.

The 9/11 Hijackers were Human.

KKKRove is Human.

The Orange Piece Of Shit is "human."

So I don't think that is a good yardstick anymore. It never has been, but now it has infiltrated American politics in a big way, and there is sadly no way to really know how to rid ourselves of it. The enablers might not be a majority, but they still exist. The enemy is within. The killers have placed a call from Inside the house.

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Response to sfstaxprep (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:56 PM

17. True. I just now read a post in GD entitled : Trump tamed by Impeachment

Go there and read that. It pretty much confirms your point.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:50 PM

11. I understand wanting to nail trump, but I'm ready to move on to things that

will help people that need it.

As far as disqualifying him from office, I get it in trumpís case. But, Iím fine with voters doing that as on Nov 3, and likely in future if the POS lives or does more than bluster about running in 2024.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:55 PM

16. I agree with you 100%

 

I don't think it's worth doing, either. But I posted this for the "Do the 14th Amendment NOW!" crowd.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 10:57 PM

18. I get it. Hopefully in a year or two we can look back and be happy we broke trump

and the rubes that support him.

If someone manages to nail him, without delaying needed work, Iíll do a little dance.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 11:04 PM

19. Some of that crowd...

is being intentionally obtuse. I'm not convinced that there aren't other motivations involved, as well.

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Response to TwilightZone (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 14, 2021, 11:12 PM

21. There does seem to be a certain bent to these demands and criticisms, doesn't there?

 

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:01 AM

23. It's appealing on the surface, but it's actually a trap.

Great reader comments from the WaPo article:

Somebody please stop all the talk about the Democrats doing something to keep Trump from running again or any further censure. It's a TRAP McConnell set up. He wants Trump out as badly as Dems do but doesn't want the heat. His whole self-serving speech Saturday was to goad the Dems into doing his dirty work (remember the "yet"?). If Dems use the 14th or some other method... to keep Trump from running, McConnell gets EXACTLY what he wants: Trump out, more ammunition to use against the Dems and bind Trumps base to the Republicans by channeling their hate and keeps them riled up for voting against Dems.

Another comment:

... It would play right into the hands of Cruz, Rubio, Hawley, Haley, or any other Republican who would enter presidential primaries for the 2024 election. They would want Trump out of the way, giving them a better shot at the nomination, while not having to outright oppose a candidate Trump and lose his supporters for their cause. Allowing Trump to maintain his option to run again would fracture the Republican party.

And one more:

... I do think that Congress should now simply leave Trump to the civil and criminal indictments heading his way. More Congressional action will simply be used falsely as evidence of Trump being a victim.

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Response to scarletwoman (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:10 AM

25. I don't have any desire to see Congress take that course of action

 

Last edited Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)

But some people here are gung ho and think it's a slam dunk. I've been trying to explain the process and what can and can't be done - especially that Congress can't, on its own, just have an up or down vote and disqualify Trump because they think the Constitution allows it, which it doesn't.

I agree, it's not worth doing and won't have the effect some people think, even if they go through the proper process. Instead of expecting Congress to wave a magic wand and make Trump go away, we're going to have to work our butts off to keep him and his proteges from getting anywhere near the White House. I think some of the people who are screaming the loudest about 14th Amendment solutions, witnesses, Democrats "caving," etc. are the least interested in actually doing this work themselves but expect Congress to take care of it for them.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:20 AM

26. I really appreciate that you started this thread.

I agree, it's easy for people to get excited about hey, 14th amendment!

And you've made a great point about people wanting Congress to wave a wand instead of doing the hard work ourselves.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:41 AM

27. The problem with that is

the SCOTUS would get to have the final say, and three of the five votes Trump needs are people he appointed to that Court. Alito has already shown deference to Trump with the Pennsylvania certification case, and that leaves Clarence Thomas, who would probably like to be a burr under Joe Biden's saddle. Even if Roberts goes squishy on the reich wing, I can count five votes to let Trump off of that 14th Amendment hook.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #27)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:47 AM

28. The Court has not shown itself to be beholden to Trump

 

The Court certainly didn't do Trump's bidding in the aftermath of the election.

While they could, of course go either way in this instance, there's no reason to think they would definitely rule for Trump. They're just as likely to rule against him, especially if there's a strong trial record and the rulings are solidly grounded in law.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:49 AM

29. We haven't seen

that many decisions rendered since ACB joined the Court. Time will tell.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 12:54 AM

30. Barrett is one vote

 

and she didn't swing a single election case toward Trump - and, in fact, she usually voted against him.

I don't have much patience for kneejerk "It doesn't matter what we do - we're DOOMED!" reactions to every scenario posed. Nothing is that cut and free - even a conservative Supreme Court.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 01:01 AM

31. I didn't say

that "we're doomed", but I am just being cautionary about expecting anything good to come out of the SCOTUS as it is currently constituted. Yes, Trump lost his battles on so-called election fraud, mainly because of a massive lack of evidence. Interpreting an Amendment that is well over a century old, and probably only has case law involving actual Confederate soldiers/officers, it's tricky to predict what the application will be to the Trump case.

I remain pessimistic until proven that I'm wrong.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 07:00 AM

34. It would have to go to The Supreme Court and I think they would find that it doesn't include

the president. Even if he is found guilty of insurrection, the Senate and Representatives are in the 14th Amendment, the president is not. If Congress and the states had wanted the president to be included, they would have said so.

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Response to marie999 (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 18, 2021, 07:22 PM

35. The president is not included in the 14th Amendment.


The president is in the impeachment Article 2 Section 4 and not in the 14th Amendment. Why would they leave the president out of the 14th Amendment when Congress is in it. The 14th Amendment even lists state legislature and judicial officers, but it doesn't bother to list the president. Also in the Supreme Court case of Free Enterprise Fund V. Public Accounting Oversight Bid, Chief Justice Roberts wrote "The people do not vote for the Officers of The United States. Rather Officers of the United States are appointed exclusively pursuant to Article 2 Section 2 procedures. Also Buckley v. Valeo the Supreme Court defines that "officer of the United States" is an appointee and excludes elected officials, that is why the 14th Amendment has to include members of Congress.

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