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Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:41 AM

Capitalism vs Communism.

The fanatical disciples of the free market live in mortal terror of the United States morphing into the Soviet Union.

In the Soviet Union, a tiny fraction of the population lived in privileged luxury and comfort, free from the terrors of an out-of-control police state, while the majority of the population lived a hand-to-mouth existence, always at risk for starving or freezing to death, while murderous police gangs roamed the streets, shooting citizens with impunity.

Which is pretty much the system we already have here right now.

So what is it the Ayn Rand types are afraid of again?...

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Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply Capitalism vs Communism. (Original post)
Aristus Feb 22 OP
comradebillyboy Feb 22 #1
rampartc Feb 22 #7
comradebillyboy Feb 22 #23
Voltaire2 Feb 22 #34
comradebillyboy Feb 22 #39
Voltaire2 Feb 22 #42
hunter Feb 22 #41
Demsrule86 Feb 22 #24
quaker bill Feb 22 #43
Turin_C3PO Feb 22 #15
Bettie Feb 22 #37
mahatmakanejeeves Feb 22 #2
Aristus Feb 22 #3
Freelancer Feb 22 #4
Aristus Feb 22 #6
Freelancer Feb 22 #10
Aristus Feb 22 #11
Klaralven Feb 22 #17
Freelancer Feb 22 #22
Turin_C3PO Feb 22 #33
Demsrule86 Feb 22 #26
Aristus Feb 22 #27
The Magistrate Feb 22 #5
Irish_Dem Feb 22 #8
Aristus Feb 22 #9
Irish_Dem Feb 22 #12
Freelancer Feb 22 #13
Irish_Dem Feb 22 #14
Turin_C3PO Feb 22 #16
Irish_Dem Feb 22 #18
Freelancer Feb 22 #19
Irish_Dem Feb 22 #21
Turin_C3PO Feb 22 #35
TheBlackAdder Feb 22 #20
Aristus Feb 22 #25
Demsrule86 Feb 22 #28
Aristus Feb 22 #29
TheBlackAdder Feb 22 #30
Voltaire2 Feb 22 #32
lindysalsagal Feb 22 #31
WyattKansas Feb 22 #36
Cosmocat Feb 22 #38
Crunchy Frog Feb 22 #40

Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:48 AM

1. There is a reason why every socialist state in Europe

went to a market economy as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed. There is a reason why China adopted a form of state capitalism under the rule of the Chinese Communist Party. The Soviets and Chinese executed millions of capitalists yet capitalism persisted. Socialism just hasn't worked out very well for the people of those countries.

Socialism has been rejected because of poor performance.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:10 PM

7. and the last time a socialist economy needed a $2T bailout?

the failed system is american style capitalism.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:11 PM

23. The last successful socialist state

was what?

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:52 PM

34. Norway?

define 'socialist state'.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:48 PM

39. Norway has a free market economy

Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management of enterprises.

That’s pretty much what Marx and Engels came up with in the 19th century. If you’re looking for a country that matches this definition, your search won’t take you to northern Europe. The simple fact is that Scandinavian countries are not, by any reasonable definition, socialist.

In 2015, in fact, the Prime Minister of Denmark, in a lecture at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, addressed the issue directly.

"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."


https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 04:41 PM

42. norway's energy sector is almost entirely state owned.

Denmark, fyi, is not Norway.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #23)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:51 PM

41. Pick ANY functional state in the modern world. They are all socialist states in some ways...

... and capitalist in others.

Mixed economies work.

Purely Libertarian, Socialist, and Communist societies don't work.

Pretty much all the "isms" are bullshit, including nationalism and patriotism.

Human progress is made most rapidly by people who can work peacefully for the greater good with other people who may not share similar religions, cultures, languages, skin color, gender, sexuality, etc.., by people who CELEBRATE our human diversity.

At the same time we have to recognize that some cultures are destructive and do our best to bring them into the light, ideally by kindness, but otherwise by resilience and strength.

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Response to rampartc (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:31 PM

24. We need capitalism with regulation...communism would never work and has never worked anywhere.

In fact, Marx said it would never work in the real world.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #24)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 04:59 PM

43. It is good then that no one is proposing it

no one is proposing it. No plan to do this exists.

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Response to comradebillyboy (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:32 PM

15. The answer is highly regulated capitalism

with a generous safety net and things like guaranteed vacation time, maternity leave, higher minimum wage, etc. I think Scandinavia has a pretty good system worked out. Not sure if it could work in the United States but we’d be wise to move in that direction.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:13 PM

37. Yep, a combo of socialism and capitalism

with robust regulation to ensure that neither abuses the people who live under the system.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:50 AM

2. SRSLY?

In the Soviet Union, a tiny fraction of the population lived in privileged luxury and comfort, free from the terrors of an out-of-control police state, while the majority of the population lived a hand-to-mouth existence, always at risk for starving or freezing to death, while murderous police gangs roamed the streets, shooting citizens with impunity.

Which is pretty much the system we already have here right now.

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Response to mahatmakanejeeves (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 11:53 AM

3. Members of the Poliburo had vacation homes, limousines, and plenty of good food to eat.

Real proletariats there...

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Response to Aristus (Original post)


Response to Freelancer (Reply #4)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:10 PM

6. It doesn't have to.

We're living the way we would under the Soviet system anyway.

Right around the time detente happened in the early '70's, we devalued the dollar, and started busting the unions. The 1950's dream of broad-based economic prosperity, however much it differed from the reality, became unattainable by that point.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)


Response to Freelancer (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:21 PM

11. That's what I'm hoping.

n/t

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Response to Freelancer (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:37 PM

17. We did pass through a one-way door in the '70s.

US' supply of cheap resources were running out. The Texas, Oklahoma and California conventional oil fields were drying up. The Iron Range in Minnesota was played out, as were the great copper mines of Montana and Arizona.

We had used up a lot of those resources as arms supplier to the winning sides of WW I&II. We emerged from WW II with the planets only large, intact industrial base, and we had acquired most of the globe's gold supply at Fort Knox. We lived well on our winnings for thirty years, but by the mid '70s we had used up our advantages.

Since then we've been battling to hold off more intelligent, harder working, and more disciplined competitors in Japan, the Asian Tigers, and China.

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Response to Klaralven (Reply #17)


Response to Klaralven (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:51 PM

33. Not more intelligent.

Humans are humans everywhere. No one ethnic group is smarter than another.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #6)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:35 PM

26. No we are not living under the Soviet system. The economic system is one giant grift for one man

Putin...you will never convince me or most Americans that communism could ever work or would be desirable. And saying that both capitalism and communism are 'bad' sure doesn't make me want to try communism...into the pot from the frying pan...don't you think?

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:37 PM

27. Absolutely.

I believe absolutely that a government serves its people best with a balanced combination of public and private endeavor.

But try convincing the GOP of that.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:02 PM

5. One Is Reminded, Sir, Of An Old Soviet Era Jest



"Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Communism is just the opposite."


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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:17 PM

8. Greed and corruption the human norm no matter what political system?

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:17 PM

9. My point exactly.

n/t

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Response to Aristus (Reply #9)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:25 PM

12. The world is ruled by ruthless wealthy oligarchs and corrupt politicians.

In the US, the good guys are allowed into the WH every 8 years to clean up the GOP mess.
Just to make sure the people don't catch on to the game.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #8)


Response to Freelancer (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:29 PM

14. Are humans inherently good or evil? Rosseau vs Locke

I used to think most people were a combination of good and evil.
And that pure goodness or pure evil were in the minority.

But in the last 4 years I have learned the pure evil is much more prevalent than I realized.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #14)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:35 PM

16. From my studies,

I’d say people are good when it comes to individual and “tribal” relationships. We tend to be kind, generous, etc. in those conditions. But we adopt a different mindset to those outside our tribe. We are more ruthless with outsiders.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:39 PM

18. But the GOP is fine with killing a half a million Americans.

Members of their own tribe.

But of course, the GOP probably sees Americans as outsiders, not part of their tribe.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #14)


Response to Freelancer (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:50 PM

21. It is a dark, dangerous time now. I hope the expansive period is on the way.

The corruption, greed and evil is overwhelming. And almost unbearable to sensitive souls who see things too clearly at times.

I have long felt the 21st century will bring good news for the human species. But this century has certainly started on a horrific note.

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Response to Freelancer (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:53 PM

35. I don't believe that.

There’s less violence, world wide, now than there has ever been. Less violence in the US especially. We have our problems but no one era is more enlightened than another.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 12:42 PM

20. Soviet and Chinese Communism are not what Karl Marx wrote about, but totalitarian perversions.

.

Unbridled Capitalism and Communism are equally as destructive to a society.

The RWers love to quote Adam Smith (Father of Capitalism) when he discussed what we refer to as the "Invisible Hand of Government", however, they seem to ignore him a couple of chapters away when he states that for a capitalist country to thrive, there must be an aggressive tiered tax structure that heavily taxes the wealthy. New Republicans conveniently overlook this because it doesn't play in well with the self-affecting nature of greedy sociopaths.

.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:34 PM

25. I agree.

Marxism isn't anything like the actuality of Leninisn-Stalinism.

Maybe I should have put quotes around the "Communism" in the OP.

Right-wingers don't have a clue what Marxism is. They've just been trained by nearly a century of anti-Communist howling to believe that anything they disapprove of must be Communism.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:40 PM

28. Marxism, Communism... doesn't exist anywhere.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:45 PM

29. Nomadic hunter-gatherer societies had probably the closest antecedent to true Marxism.

Usually until colonial powers came along and "civilized" them with, among other things, the concept of private property.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:46 PM

30. Neither does Libertarianism, but that won't stop those fools from professing it as legitimate. 😂

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #28)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:50 PM

32. well except of course in China, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Cuba, North Korea

all of which are still marxist-leninist states, and combined account for around 20% of the world's population.

Also there are a lot of states that have some form of democratic socialism, I guess we won't count those either.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:48 PM

31. Thankyou.

We're confusing a philosophical descriptor and an organizational construct in the same straw man argument:

Neither is valid.

Economics are never binary choices, and russia was never communist, just like we were never purely capitalist.

Instead of wasting energy on false equivalencies, spend some time examining modern Canada since their independence. I'm not privy to any special knowledge, but I have many canadian friends, and they lean more towards centralized government with more social supports while still retaining provincial independence culturally.

And all of the old constructs are irrelevant now that we've outsourced manufacturing and energy. They also ignored the impact on the environment. Everything, healthcare, science, tech, all has to be re-imagined and it's all interdependent.

Don't be fooled into thinking the future is a simple choice.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 01:59 PM

36. I have noticed for over a decade now that the U.S. is becoming...

What we used to see on the news about Eastern European and the Soviet Union when it came to what people there could actually afford and what was actually available for purchase in the 1980s.

Think about it... We used to have multiple choices from multiple big stores to small stores readily available in most places in the country. Now we have 'the Walmart!' in larger communities across the country that most people must travel to get everything. And when people get to that Walmart, they are at the mercy to the cheap crap they import from other countries and are limited to what they have in stock, which is based on the Vulture Capitalism model of 'take what we have or do without.' Only in big urban areas will people actually find multiple choices and alternatives to Walmart, but they have still been affected by the extremist Vulture Capitalism model shading those businesses as well. I have often wondered if other people have noticed that the United States is getting like what we used to see on tv about the Soviet Union when it comes to what people are allowed to actually purchase.

Until this country eliminates it's 'deregulation' dogma and corrects it's Vulture Capitalism policies the country has been operating on for decades, nothing will improve and it will only continue getting worse. FDR saved capitalism from itself by regulating it and the Democratic Party must beat the Republican Party over the head with what it has done in erasing what FDR did for the country.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:13 PM

38. This is not even remotely what this country is struggling with

There is an increasingly half hearted attempt to pidgeon hole it into an economic discussion, and WE tend to think along those lines, but that is not what the other 2/3 of the country are focused on.

Even when they do, it is proxy for what is driving us over a cliff - culture.

1/3 of the county full on could give a shit at this point about economics, they just cling to their long held focus on that which might hold back "others" even if it holds them back, and the "middle" 1/3 goes along with it for similar reasons.

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Response to Aristus (Original post)

Mon Feb 22, 2021, 02:50 PM

40. It's just a manufactured bogeyman to manipulate the rubes with.

It's not a real, good faith argument (which the RW is not capable of).

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