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Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:14 AM

Idea: Put an excessively high tax on conventional ammo to discourage mass killings

but not on non-lethal ammo like rubber bullets. The tax would strongly inhibit the use of guns as lethal weapons outside of the military. Hunters might be granted a very modest amount of ammo tax-free. Why? The new conservative Supreme Court will never allow banning of guns, yet taxes are certainly allowed and can be used to discourage gun use, which is probably the only way to stop mass killings as all sociopaths or psychopaths can't be identified in advance or even prevented from having weapons.

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Reply Idea: Put an excessively high tax on conventional ammo to discourage mass killings (Original post)
andym Mar 2021 OP
Jerry2144 Mar 2021 #1
uponit7771 Mar 2021 #9
NutmegYankee Mar 2021 #19
Jerry2144 Mar 2021 #23
NutmegYankee Mar 2021 #27
FBaggins Mar 2021 #2
andym Mar 2021 #4
WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2021 #7
andym Mar 2021 #8
andym Mar 2021 #16
WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2021 #18
hack89 Mar 2021 #25
NYC Liberal Mar 2021 #26
Ocelot II Mar 2021 #3
andym Mar 2021 #6
Ocelot II Mar 2021 #10
GregariousGroundhog Mar 2021 #14
Ocelot II Mar 2021 #17
nycbos Mar 2021 #5
sarisataka Mar 2021 #11
Johnny2X2X Mar 2021 #12
Archae Mar 2021 #13
sanatanadharma Mar 2021 #15
andym Mar 2021 #20
leftstreet Mar 2021 #21
CoopersDad Mar 2021 #22
ruet Mar 2021 #24
andym Mar 2021 #28
MadLinguist Mar 2021 #29

Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:23 AM

1. Add black powder

As black powder and supplies for making your own ammo. Any hollow point, armor piercing, or anti-personnel round should be extremely taxed at the federal level. Those bullets are not good for hunting since they destroy so much meat. And the bullets that are useful for hunting ( including shotgun shells) can be taxed at a lower rate.

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Response to Jerry2144 (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:51 AM

9. +1

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Response to Jerry2144 (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:59 AM

19. Black powder is not used for modern firearms.

Modern cartridges for guns use "Smokeless powder" which is nitrocellulose based.

Black powder is used for some niche hunting and by reenactment groups like mine who do Revolutionary and Civil war events.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:12 AM

23. I know that

That was why I put the and other supplies for making your own ammo. The tax should be based upon how useful or practical the ammo is for hunting. Shot gun shells with fine bird shot or deer slugs have low tax. Standard 30.06 hunting rounds low tax. 7.62 mm, hollow point or jacketed rounds that shred meat should be taxed at very high levels, few rounds per box, limits on the amount of boxes you can purchase, and prohibiting possession of untaxed rounds should all be part of this plan.

I would also like to see a competency test for owning firearms. Can you pass a basic safety test annually? And one of those questions that should be an automatic failure is, Did Joe Biden legitimately win the election for President in 2020?

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Response to Jerry2144 (Reply #23)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:32 AM

27. My group (artillery company) fires cannons for reenactments.

Much of the rest of the Regiment is standard infantry firing black powder weapons appropriate to the time period (percussion cap for Civil War and flintlock for Rev War). We cannot afford some obscene tax on black powder nor is such a tax anything other than evil considering that it isn't used for mass shootings or really any shootings today.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:25 AM

2. Wouldn't pass constitutional muster - nor would it be effective

Three thoughts

If someone intended to shoot people, even 1,000% tax on bullets doesn't make them too expensive

But it would make it too expensive for practice - which makes "well regulated" not much of a thing

Lastly - yes... that would make it unconstitutional. Think of a $10,000 state tax on each abortion. Could the proponents claim that they weren't effectively banning the procedure for most people? "Taxes are certainly allowed"?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:41 AM

4. I don't agree about the constituionality of taxing ammo

it would be close to banning ammo, without actually banning it. The constitutionality of taxes has never been in question. In fact it a way to make the militia, "well regulated". Could abortions be discouraged by taxation? I don't know-- it sounds possible actually. The only unconstitutional taxes I am aware of besides cases of jurisdictional conflicts were poll taxes to discourage voting, so there might be a problem if the justices use that as their exemplar, but it would certainly be debatable.

As for the perpetrators-- it wouldn't be that easy to buy the requisite amount of ammo, as there would be so few buyers, and there might be additional informal scrutiny of such folks.

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Response to andym (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:45 AM

7. Punitive taxes that serve as bans are unconstitutional.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #7)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:51 AM

8. Then why are taxes on illegal drugs by the states allowed?

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/why-do-states-tax-illegal-drugs

Because they are not "bans?" $3.50 a gram of marijuana in NC is not excessive?

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Response to andym (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:59 AM

18. Doesn't look like a ban; looks like another way to increase penalties against minorities and funnel

money to cops.

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Response to andym (Reply #4)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:23 AM

25. There is plenty of case law on defacto bans.

Taxes are constitutional except when they are used as a back door means to restrict civil liberties. Poll taxes and excessive taxes on newsprint/ ink are in the case law. Your ammo tax would fall into the same category and would not be allowed.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:26 AM

26. "One weird trick to get around the Constitution...courts hate it!"

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:30 AM

3. Wouldn't be constitutional, most likely.

It would be a sales tax on goods, a form of taxation which is reserved to the states.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:43 AM

6. So a national sales tax would be unconstituional?

I didn't realize that. All those proposals to replace the income tax with a sales tax are illegal? What about excise taxes on alcohol? How are they allowed? Aren't excise taxes by the feds generally allowed?

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Response to andym (Reply #6)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:52 AM

10. Excise taxes are imposed on directly on businesses,

so the tax is paid only indirectly by consumers (if the business chooses to add the tax to the total cost of the goods), and it is therefore not a sales tax. So hypothetically, an excise tax could be imposed on ammunition, as with alcohol and cigarettes, but such an extremely high excise tax would probably considered confiscatory and for that reason might not hold up in court.

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Response to Ocelot II (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:54 AM

14. If that were the case, Congress wouldn't be able to tax alcohol, tobacco, or gasoline

If Congress wanted to impose a penny per bullet tax to fund gun safety programs, they could probably do it. If they wanted to impose a $10,000 per bullet tax, the Supreme Court would probably call it out on what it is - an indirect ban on firearms.

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Response to GregariousGroundhog (Reply #14)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:56 AM

17. There's a difference between an excise tax and a sales tax.

An excise tax is imposed on the business, not the consumer. An excise tax could hypothetically be imposed on ammunition but if it's as high as suggested it might not survive in court if it's deemed confiscatory.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:43 AM

5. Chris Rock already proposed it.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:53 AM

11. Unconstitutional,

several years ago there was a case where an extra tax was imposed on ink and paper. It was challenged by the newspaper under the First Amendment and the Supreme Court agreed with the paper. A guaranteed right cannot be limited through taxation.

While guns and ammo can certainly be taxed like other products, an excessive tax to discourage ownership will fail miserably. And likely have a backlash of more guns and ammo being sold.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:54 AM

12. No

People need ammo to practice so they can more safely use their fire arms.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:54 AM

13. Yup, screw hunters and target shooters...

Excessive taxes on ammo, will NOT stop criminals or nutcases.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 09:54 AM

15. Federal excise tax on bullets.

As far as I know, Federal excise taxes are constitutional.

Tax bullets! Use the funds for gun violence health care.

The idea that nothing can be done is either a gun-uncontrol advocate's defensive argument or a denial of reality; slavery was ended, women were given the vote, alcohol was outlawed, alcohol prohibition also ended.

The Constitution has changed and must change, except in the morally vacuous minds of those who accept limitless violence in defense of bullets.

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Response to sanatanadharma (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:00 AM

20. Apparently there are already federal excise taxes on bullets

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45123.html
so they can be increased, the question is just how much according to t the other posters here taxes cannot be used to effectively ban something to be bought.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:02 AM

21. Give traumatized shoppers baseball bats at the scene

possibly more effective deterrent

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:03 AM

22. ? This way rich white folks can continue to oppress everyone else?

Taxing ammo is not the way to solve violent crime.

Zero tolerance on gun crime and addressing the root causes of violence at the societal and individual levels are necessary.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:13 AM

24. Right, That'll Stop'em.

That's about as logical as believing the death penalty reduces homicide rates.

/snark

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Response to ruet (Reply #24)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:38 AM

28. The death penalty comes after the fact, limiting access comes before. nt.

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Response to andym (Original post)

Tue Mar 23, 2021, 10:38 AM

29. Chris Rock had a sketch with this idea years ago

Still a good idea

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