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markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 07:45 PM Mar 2021

The best argument against the filibuster is also the most obvious one . . .

. . . For anyone who doubts whether the filibuster is contrary to the intent of the framers of the Constitution, here's a simple question they can ask themselves that should provide immediate clarity:

If the framers had intended to require a [de facto] 60-vote majority in order to pass regular legislation, why would they have bothered to designate the Vice President to be a tie-breaking vote, since there never would have been any tie votes to worry about?
35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The best argument against the filibuster is also the most obvious one . . . (Original Post) markpkessinger Mar 2021 OP
Aha! Karadeniz Mar 2021 #1
Excellent Point! So simple and very hard to counter. usaf-vet Mar 2021 #12
If they had wanted it in, they would have written it in... Wounded Bear Mar 2021 #2
There were not even 60 senators when the Constitution was written demtenjeep Mar 2021 #3
The point is that the framers envisioned a simple majority vote . . . markpkessinger Mar 2021 #4
Hang in there. EarnestPutz Mar 2021 #15
so call it 60%. n/t Mr.Bill Mar 2021 #5
It could, in fact, be any percentage above 50 n/t markpkessinger Mar 2021 #10
Example: First Senate - 26 members (13X2) amb123 Mar 2021 #6
Senate Majority leader isn't even in the constitution its a political mechanism Historic NY Mar 2021 #13
if ? monkeyman1 Mar 2021 #7
They use it because a Senate rule allows it . . . markpkessinger Mar 2021 #9
Correct Mike Niendorff Mar 2021 #16
if ? monkeyman1 Mar 2021 #8
That's an excellent argument! BobTheSubgenius Mar 2021 #11
crickets Mar 2021 #14
Excellent point. dalton99a Mar 2021 #17
So the filibuster is, in fact, unconstitutional nuxvomica Mar 2021 #18
Ah ha. It is not just mathematical, it is a legal/constitutional issue. Trust_Reality Mar 2021 #22
The framers didn't want political parties either fescuerescue Mar 2021 #19
Bingo! BlueJac Mar 2021 #20
Because it's not about passing the legislation, it's about ending debate. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2021 #21
But it has become a game, a mechanism for killing legislation. It makes the Senate dysfunctional. Trust_Reality Mar 2021 #23
All of parliamentary procedure can be made into a game for one's own end. Cuthbert Allgood Mar 2021 #27
Yep. Good point. calimary Mar 2021 #24
Sorry, but your argument fails because...there actually IS NO SUCH THING as a filibuster. brooklynite Mar 2021 #25
Eggs-actly. +1,000,000 for your clarity. n/t MFGsunny Mar 2021 #26
Looks like the Senate rules originally allowed a motion to call for a vote with a simple majority. robertpaulsen Mar 2021 #29
Yes, but a motion was not in order if a Senator was speaking... brooklynite Mar 2021 #31
Was that the rule in 1789? robertpaulsen Mar 2021 #33
It did terminate debate but didn't interrupt a speech... brooklynite Mar 2021 #34
Wasn't supposed to be political parties. rickyhall Mar 2021 #28
That's really good. NM Grins Mar 2021 #30
I believe in the filibuster, but I believe the one who starts it needs to run with it AZLD4Candidate Mar 2021 #32
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is a bunch of sentimental nonsense markpkessinger Mar 2021 #35

markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
4. The point is that the framers envisioned a simple majority vote . . .
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 08:17 PM
Mar 2021

. . . and that any supermajority requirement (irrespective of the actual number involved) would have obviated the need for a tie-breaking vote.

Jeesh, I didn't think I had to spell that out!

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
13. Senate Majority leader isn't even in the constitution its a political mechanism
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 10:39 PM
Mar 2021

the founders version had all the chairman of the various committees working as one.

 

monkeyman1

(5,109 posts)
7. if ?
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 08:49 PM
Mar 2021

if it is not in the in the constitution , how in the hell can they use it ? is it just a after thought ? amend or what ? a lot of people me it just a moscow mitch weapon to get what the he want's . should be just gotten rid of .

markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
9. They use it because a Senate rule allows it . . .
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 08:56 PM
Mar 2021

. . . and the Constitution leaves it to the members of each of the House and Senate to determine its own rules.

Mike Niendorff

(3,459 posts)
16. Correct
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 04:01 AM
Mar 2021

Also, this is not at all obvious at first glance. This is a gaming out of one of the loopholes in the document.


MDN
 

monkeyman1

(5,109 posts)
8. if ?
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 08:50 PM
Mar 2021

if it is not in the in the constitution , how in the hell can they use it ? is it just a after thought ? amend or what ? a lot of people me it just a moscow mitch weapon to get what the he want's . should be just gotten rid of .

BobTheSubgenius

(11,562 posts)
11. That's an excellent argument!
Wed Mar 24, 2021, 10:09 PM
Mar 2021

Heartiest congratulations, if you are the one that make that connection.



And, if you weren't, thanks for bringing it here!

nuxvomica

(12,419 posts)
18. So the filibuster is, in fact, unconstitutional
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 09:17 AM
Mar 2021

Because it infringes on the vice president's constitutionally created power as tie-breaker.

Trust_Reality

(1,722 posts)
22. Ah ha. It is not just mathematical, it is a legal/constitutional issue.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 12:27 PM
Mar 2021

Bring back democratic constitutional procedures in the Senate.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
19. The framers didn't want political parties either
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 09:36 AM
Mar 2021

But a tie vote isn't that hard to imagine.

But we have already had tie-vote this year. Even with the filibuster.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,915 posts)
21. Because it's not about passing the legislation, it's about ending debate.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 11:47 AM
Mar 2021

That's what the filibuster rule is. You need 60 to move to a vote and then 50%+1 to pass it.

Yeah, it's bullshit and I don't like it, but simple parliamentary procedure explains why it isn't unconstitutional.

Trust_Reality

(1,722 posts)
23. But it has become a game, a mechanism for killing legislation. It makes the Senate dysfunctional.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 12:32 PM
Mar 2021

I'm not buying that "parliamentary procedure" makes it ok.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,915 posts)
27. All of parliamentary procedure can be made into a game for one's own end.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 01:44 PM
Mar 2021

That's nothing new nor particularly Republican. Calling the question was something people have done for centuries before what's her name started doing it in the House. Points of order are used to stop momentum and a million different reasons.

But we should, here, know better than it being not a majority to pass. It's still a majority to pass, but it's more than that to call the question.

brooklynite

(94,489 posts)
25. Sorry, but your argument fails because...there actually IS NO SUCH THING as a filibuster.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 12:47 PM
Mar 2021

The filibuster is a colloquial reference, but it doesn't exist in the Constitution or in the Senate rules.

Nor does a requirement to pass something with 60 votes (negating the need for the VP to break ties).

What DOES exist in the Senate rules (which the Constitution allows the Senate to establish) is the principle of extended and indefinite debate on an issue. Unlike the House, which established a Rules Committee to establish rules for each Bill in terms of how much time will be spent in debate, Senators may talk at length until, under parliamentary procedure, a motion is passed to call for a vote. Said motion cannot interrupt a Senator while speaking, hence the historical "filibuster speeches", which procedurally could be continued indefinitely by yielding to other supportive Senators. The cloture call requirement of 60 was established as a bipartisan agreement to avoid endless delays in Senate business while retaining support for the minority to have an opportunity to express opinions.

robertpaulsen

(8,632 posts)
29. Looks like the Senate rules originally allowed a motion to call for a vote with a simple majority.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 03:15 PM
Mar 2021

Just perusing Wikipedia:

Accidental creation and early use of the filibuster

In 1789, the first U.S. Senate adopted rules allowing senators to move the previous question (by simple majority vote), which meant ending debate and proceeding to a vote. But Vice President Aaron Burr argued that the previous-question motion was redundant, had only been exercised once in the preceding four years, and should be eliminated, which was done in 1806, after he left office.[11] The Senate agreed and modified its rules.[11] Because it created no alternative mechanism for terminating debate, filibusters became theoretically possible.

During most of the pre-Civil War period, the filibuster was seldom used as northern senators desired to maintain southern support over fears of disunion/secession and made compromises over slavery in order to avoid confrontation with new states admitted to the Union in pairs to preserve the sectional balance in the Senate,[12] most notably in the Missouri Compromise of 1820.

Until the late 1830s, however, the filibuster remained a solely theoretical option, never actually exercised. The first Senate filibuster occurred in 1837 when a group of Whig senators filibustered to prevent allies of the Democratic-Republican President Andrew Jackson from expunging a resolution of censure against him.[13][14] In 1841, a defining moment came during debate on a bill to charter a new national bank. After Whig Senator Henry Clay tried to end the debate via a majority vote, Democratic Senator William R. King threatened a filibuster, saying that Clay "may make his arrangements at his boarding house for the winter". Other senators sided with King, and Clay backed down.[11]


As Alexander Hamilton might have said, "Fuck Aaron Burr!" Except, of course, by 1806 he was no longer around to call him out.

robertpaulsen

(8,632 posts)
33. Was that the rule in 1789?
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:14 PM
Mar 2021

From my reading, it seems that the previous-question motion did terminate debate. Filibusters only became theoretically possible after 1806. If you've got a more precise source, I'd love to read it.

brooklynite

(94,489 posts)
34. It did terminate debate but didn't interrupt a speech...
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:24 PM
Mar 2021

When the speaker yielded the floor, a motion to proceed to a vote was in order.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,670 posts)
32. I believe in the filibuster, but I believe the one who starts it needs to run with it
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 05:10 PM
Mar 2021

Filibuster is not a declaration. It isn't saying "no, I'm going to filibuster" and then you leave the chamber.

They need to do it the way they did in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Get on the floor and keep going until they pass out, give out, or collapse from exhaustion. Otherwise, they can filibuster while sitting on the couch at home, which defeats the purpose of a filibuster.

It needs to be reformed back to its original intention and use, but probably not done away with.

I believe a cloture vote needs to be done away with. Simple majority to break a filibuster.

markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
35. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is a bunch of sentimental nonsense
Fri Mar 26, 2021, 02:26 AM
Mar 2021

The film took an obscure Senate rule and romanticized it in a way that made people think the filibuster was a commonly used tactic, and an inherent part of the Senate. It is not. In fact, it is directly contrary to what the framers of the Constitution intended.

In Federalist No. 58, defending the Constitution against supermajority requirements in all but a few constitutionally-defined circumstances, Madison wrote:

"It has been said that more than a majority ought to have been required for a quorum; and in particular cases, if not in all, more than a majority of a quorum for a decision. That some advantages might have resulted from such a precaution, cannot be denied. It might have been an additional shield to some particular interests, and another obstacle generally to hasty and partial measures. But these considerations are outweighed by the inconveniences in the opposite scale.

In all cases where justice or the general good might require new laws to be passed, or active measures to be pursued, the fundamental principle of free government would be reversed. It would be no longer the majority that would rule: the power would be transferred to the minority. Were the defensive privilege limited to particular cases, an interested minority might take advantage of it to screen themselves from equitable sacrifices to the general weal, or, in particular emergencies, to extort unreasonable indulgences."


And in Federalist 22, Hamilton identifies supermajority requirements as one of the principal causes of dysfunction in the Articles of Confederation:

"To give a minority a negative upon the majority (which is always the case where more than a majority is requisite to a decision), is, in its tendency, to subject the sense of the greater number to that of the lesser. ... The necessity of unanimity in public bodies, or of something approaching towards it, has been founded upon a supposition that it would contribute to security. But its real operation is to embarrass the administration, to destroy the energy of the government, and to substitute the pleasure, caprice, or artifices of an insignificant, turbulent, or corrupt junto, to the regular deliberations and decisions of a respectable majority. In those emergencies of a nation, in which the goodness or badness, the weakness or strength of its government, is of the greatest importance, there is commonly a necessity for action. The public business must, in some way or other, go forward. If a pertinacious minority can control the opinion of a majority, respecting the best mode of conducting it, the majority, in order that something may be done, must conform to the views of the minority; and thus the sense of the smaller number will overrule that of the greater, and give a tone to the national proceedings. Hence, tedious delays; continual negotiation and intrigue; contemptible compromises of the public good. And yet, in such a system, it is even happy when such compromises can take place: for upon some occasions things will not admit of accommodation; and then the measures of government must be injuriously suspended, or fatally defeated. It is often, by the impracticability of obtaining the concurrence of the necessary number of votes, kept in a state of inaction. Its situation must always savor of weakness, sometimes border upon anarchy.”


Contrary to the way its supporters try to frame it, the filibuster does not encourage compromise, especially when the minority party employs it on virtually every piece of legislation that comes before it. At that point, it is nothing more than a tool for the minority to exercise a de facto veto power over anything the majority might try to enact. It was like that for the eight years of the Obama administration, and it will be like that during the Biden administration if it s not eliminated.

The filibuster is an anti-democratic, extra-constitutional blight on the Senate. Created by racists (specifically by John C. Calhoun of South to protect Southern slavery from federal civil rights legislation in the 1840s), it has no place in our system and must be abolished!
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