General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe best argument against the filibuster is also the most obvious one . . .
. . . For anyone who doubts whether the filibuster is contrary to the intent of the framers of the Constitution, here's a simple question they can ask themselves that should provide immediate clarity:
If the framers had intended to require a [de facto] 60-vote majority in order to pass regular legislation, why would they have bothered to designate the Vice President to be a tie-breaking vote, since there never would have been any tie votes to worry about?
Karadeniz
(22,492 posts)usaf-vet
(6,178 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,632 posts)demtenjeep
(31,997 posts)so ..........................
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . and that any supermajority requirement (irrespective of the actual number involved) would have obviated the need for a tie-breaking vote.
Jeesh, I didn't think I had to spell that out!
EarnestPutz
(2,119 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,271 posts)markpkessinger
(8,392 posts)amb123
(1,581 posts)60% of 26 = 16
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)the founders version had all the chairman of the various committees working as one.
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)if it is not in the in the constitution , how in the hell can they use it ? is it just a after thought ? amend or what ? a lot of people me it just a moscow mitch weapon to get what the he want's . should be just gotten rid of .
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts). . . and the Constitution leaves it to the members of each of the House and Senate to determine its own rules.
Mike Niendorff
(3,459 posts)Also, this is not at all obvious at first glance. This is a gaming out of one of the loopholes in the document.
MDN
monkeyman1
(5,109 posts)if it is not in the in the constitution , how in the hell can they use it ? is it just a after thought ? amend or what ? a lot of people me it just a moscow mitch weapon to get what the he want's . should be just gotten rid of .
BobTheSubgenius
(11,562 posts)Heartiest congratulations, if you are the one that make that connection.
And, if you weren't, thanks for bringing it here!
crickets
(25,959 posts)dalton99a
(81,432 posts)nuxvomica
(12,419 posts)Because it infringes on the vice president's constitutionally created power as tie-breaker.
Trust_Reality
(1,722 posts)Bring back democratic constitutional procedures in the Senate.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)But a tie vote isn't that hard to imagine.
But we have already had tie-vote this year. Even with the filibuster.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,915 posts)That's what the filibuster rule is. You need 60 to move to a vote and then 50%+1 to pass it.
Yeah, it's bullshit and I don't like it, but simple parliamentary procedure explains why it isn't unconstitutional.
Trust_Reality
(1,722 posts)I'm not buying that "parliamentary procedure" makes it ok.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,915 posts)That's nothing new nor particularly Republican. Calling the question was something people have done for centuries before what's her name started doing it in the House. Points of order are used to stop momentum and a million different reasons.
But we should, here, know better than it being not a majority to pass. It's still a majority to pass, but it's more than that to call the question.
calimary
(81,193 posts)brooklynite
(94,489 posts)The filibuster is a colloquial reference, but it doesn't exist in the Constitution or in the Senate rules.
Nor does a requirement to pass something with 60 votes (negating the need for the VP to break ties).
What DOES exist in the Senate rules (which the Constitution allows the Senate to establish) is the principle of extended and indefinite debate on an issue. Unlike the House, which established a Rules Committee to establish rules for each Bill in terms of how much time will be spent in debate, Senators may talk at length until, under parliamentary procedure, a motion is passed to call for a vote. Said motion cannot interrupt a Senator while speaking, hence the historical "filibuster speeches", which procedurally could be continued indefinitely by yielding to other supportive Senators. The cloture call requirement of 60 was established as a bipartisan agreement to avoid endless delays in Senate business while retaining support for the minority to have an opportunity to express opinions.
MFGsunny
(2,356 posts)robertpaulsen
(8,632 posts)Just perusing Wikipedia:
Accidental creation and early use of the filibuster
In 1789, the first U.S. Senate adopted rules allowing senators to move the previous question (by simple majority vote), which meant ending debate and proceeding to a vote. But Vice President Aaron Burr argued that the previous-question motion was redundant, had only been exercised once in the preceding four years, and should be eliminated, which was done in 1806, after he left office.[11] The Senate agreed and modified its rules.[11] Because it created no alternative mechanism for terminating debate, filibusters became theoretically possible.
During most of the pre-Civil War period, the filibuster was seldom used as northern senators desired to maintain southern support over fears of disunion/secession and made compromises over slavery in order to avoid confrontation with new states admitted to the Union in pairs to preserve the sectional balance in the Senate,[12] most notably in the Missouri Compromise of 1820.
Until the late 1830s, however, the filibuster remained a solely theoretical option, never actually exercised. The first Senate filibuster occurred in 1837 when a group of Whig senators filibustered to prevent allies of the Democratic-Republican President Andrew Jackson from expunging a resolution of censure against him.[13][14] In 1841, a defining moment came during debate on a bill to charter a new national bank. After Whig Senator Henry Clay tried to end the debate via a majority vote, Democratic Senator William R. King threatened a filibuster, saying that Clay "may make his arrangements at his boarding house for the winter". Other senators sided with King, and Clay backed down.[11]
As Alexander Hamilton might have said, "Fuck Aaron Burr!" Except, of course, by 1806 he was no longer around to call him out.
brooklynite
(94,489 posts)robertpaulsen
(8,632 posts)From my reading, it seems that the previous-question motion did terminate debate. Filibusters only became theoretically possible after 1806. If you've got a more precise source, I'd love to read it.
brooklynite
(94,489 posts)When the speaker yielded the floor, a motion to proceed to a vote was in order.
rickyhall
(4,889 posts)Grins
(7,205 posts)AZLD4Candidate
(5,670 posts)Filibuster is not a declaration. It isn't saying "no, I'm going to filibuster" and then you leave the chamber.
They need to do it the way they did in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Get on the floor and keep going until they pass out, give out, or collapse from exhaustion. Otherwise, they can filibuster while sitting on the couch at home, which defeats the purpose of a filibuster.
It needs to be reformed back to its original intention and use, but probably not done away with.
I believe a cloture vote needs to be done away with. Simple majority to break a filibuster.
markpkessinger
(8,392 posts)The film took an obscure Senate rule and romanticized it in a way that made people think the filibuster was a commonly used tactic, and an inherent part of the Senate. It is not. In fact, it is directly contrary to what the framers of the Constitution intended.
In Federalist No. 58, defending the Constitution against supermajority requirements in all but a few constitutionally-defined circumstances, Madison wrote:
In all cases where justice or the general good might require new laws to be passed, or active measures to be pursued, the fundamental principle of free government would be reversed. It would be no longer the majority that would rule: the power would be transferred to the minority. Were the defensive privilege limited to particular cases, an interested minority might take advantage of it to screen themselves from equitable sacrifices to the general weal, or, in particular emergencies, to extort unreasonable indulgences."
And in Federalist 22, Hamilton identifies supermajority requirements as one of the principal causes of dysfunction in the Articles of Confederation:
Contrary to the way its supporters try to frame it, the filibuster does not encourage compromise, especially when the minority party employs it on virtually every piece of legislation that comes before it. At that point, it is nothing more than a tool for the minority to exercise a de facto veto power over anything the majority might try to enact. It was like that for the eight years of the Obama administration, and it will be like that during the Biden administration if it s not eliminated.
The filibuster is an anti-democratic, extra-constitutional blight on the Senate. Created by racists (specifically by John C. Calhoun of South to protect Southern slavery from federal civil rights legislation in the 1840s), it has no place in our system and must be abolished!