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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Ghosted by Allies: Why BIPOC Still Can't Trust White People With Social Justice"
Sadly, I think this speaks for many BIPOC DUers
...
The ghosted allies are those who spoke out against police brutality and murder, posted videos protesting in the streets, shed tears in their stories, followed as many Black accounts as they could find. This group was, for a moment, utterly shook by the reality of racism. But what they didnt realize was their bewilderment their shock in waking up to what Black people go through every day in this country and have for hundreds of years was what added a real insult to injury. It displayed that they had either not been paying attention, listening to us, or frankly hadnt given a fuck about us.
...
White folks have an uncanny way of centering themselves even when they aim to decenter. We saw this in the week of amplify Black voices on social media when, instead of white voices being silent, they posted to express their stance of silence. Instead of Black voices taking center stage, which was the supposed intent, we spent our time, labor, and energy creating content to explain all the points white people kept missing.
As allies, I get that reality can be daunting, and in a moment of uncertainty and wanting to do something, mistakes are made. I get that you feel like you joined a powerful movement that had all this momentum behind it. The real allies whove been around for so long waiting for other white people to get it were hopeful. I get that once that boiling water turned to steam and that steam evaporated, there was nothing left in the pot. But instead of finding more water to pour in and start the boil from scratch, people simply turned off the stove and walked away.
...
Thats why the truth is it will be a long time before Black people trust white folks with social justice if they ever do. Its too convenient to back out when it gets hard for them.
https://thebolditalic.com/ghosted-by-allies-why-bipoc-still-cant-trust-white-people-with-social-justice-6a5d9edc6f52
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)hlthe2b
(102,192 posts)police killings of Daunte Wright, Ma'Khia Bryant, Andrew Brown JR-- with intense pressure for immediate transparency. It may be only a small step in the right direction, but I find it encouraging that at least a vocal minority of people-- across the race and ethnic spectrum-- continue to be engaged and unrelenting. Social justice can not come for anyone with rising fascism infiltrating local government, police, prosecutors, and courts. We have a common enemy and goal. I don't think those who recognize this are turning away. We can't let them.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But some of the comments in response to other police killings that I'm seeing on DU and elsewhere dampen some of that hope. Too many white people love to say they're allies and abhor racism but only in the abstract - when it comes to real life, they are very quick and consistent in excusing it when it actually occurs.
Maeve
(42,279 posts)Who have found a way to appear just left-ish enough not to get bounced out of here. That said...it is human to have trouble caring about "other people's problems" and too many don't realize it is all OUR problem, not just yours.
(In "Hitchhikers' Guide", the fastest way to make something invisible was to throw a "SEP field" around it--"Someone Else's Problem" field that makes everything disappear)
Happy Hoosier
(7,264 posts)wryter2000
(46,025 posts)People at DU are convinced the cop had to shoot her 4 times
Cozmo
(1,402 posts)These posts about Ma"Khia and ones of similar ilk leads me to understand that our differences within the democratic community are far more pronounced and I now hesitate to post anything. What I presumed to be shared values were all just a myth.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And they hide behind the claim that they're grateful the cop shot the Black child to save the Black woman because that proves that "Black Lives Matter." When we know that if the Black woman had been killed by the cop along with or instead of Ma'Khia, they wouldn't see her as a sympathetic figure at all, and definitely not as a victim, but as an unworthy person responsible for her own death.
hunter
(38,309 posts)... by shooting the "bad guys."
I've been attacked by people holding knives (I've got a big scar on my arm to show for it) but I'm thankful no cops showed up to shoot anyone.
Most police don't have the skills or the temperament that we should trust them with guns.
I've seen the police shoot people I wouldn't have shot.
I always think hard before I call the police for any reason.
Once the guns come out everything is FUBAR.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Many white people see cops as part of their "us" who protects them from "them" - making it difficult for them to think of them as anything other than the good guys and making it easy for them to see the people they harass, abuse and kill as bad guys who somehow did something to deserve the treatment they received.
electric_blue68
(14,848 posts)....or later on in my life killed; adding in so many black people as friends, acquaintances, co-workers, being around black people in NYC - that knowing the violence of The South, knowing there were plenty of Northern racists that a lot of those stories of abuse had to be true.
There were just too many good black folks to be lying about that stuff.
Add in peacefully protesting against The Vietnam War seeing what cops sometimes did (on the news).
Particularly something in the '90s, and protesting against The Iraq War and seeing police treating (mostly white) protestors nastily (by white people's standards) - really made me feel that the cops weren't always on my side either There was stuff too protesting against when The Repugs had theur Presidential Convention in NYC.
.It's been a loooong time since I saw cops as totally good.
Bettie
(16,083 posts)method right there. He made a choice to use a lethal weapon when a taser could have done the same thing without anyone dying.
Zeitghost
(3,856 posts)Tasers fail to stop all the time, the officer saved that woman from severe injuries if not death.
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)a taser or a billy club would have been a better alternative. Or, maybe 1 or 2 shots, v. the 5 that I heard on the videos I've seen.
wryter2000
(46,025 posts)That he easily might have killed the girl he was trying to save? With the two of them so close together and struggling, he could have easily hit the girl in pink or both of them. Four bullets would have been enough to kill both of them.
Did he have a partner with him? IF they'd both jumped into the fight, someone might have been stabbed, but it seems to me there was a far smaller risk of loss of life doing that.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)insisting that SHE, TOO was a thug who was responsible for her own death
wryter2000
(46,025 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Treefrog
(4,170 posts)What ifs are silly in these circumstances.
wryter2000
(46,025 posts)I doubt that's the best way of doing his job.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Things have to go perfect for it to work. You have to have a mostly stationary target, after all they need to be struck by two prongs, and both prongs have to penetrate the skin. Clothing, bags, basically anything can prevent one or both prongs from deploying properly.
Its not like Star Trek where theres a stun setting, and it works 100% of the time. NPR had an article a while back that said tasers had a failure rate approaching 50%.
niyad
(113,213 posts)KatK
(185 posts)The link below is for a timeline of support/oppose Black Lives Matter amongst registered voters from 2017 to present, by online pollster Civiqs.
FiveThirtyEight gives Civiqs a B- rating.
In brief, both support and opposition spiked after George Floyd's murder, but support has moderated to 48% while opposition remains high at 39.
I know this doesn't tell the story of fluctuating allyship, nor the effectiveness of allyship. But still pertinent. And disappointing!
https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Goodheart
(5,318 posts)I can't force anybody to trust me.
jaxexpat
(6,813 posts)And that takes up precious oxygen which is needed to stand straight for the next episodes in the "Struggle". It helps nothing to petition for the abandonment of one's allies because they don't seem quite as energetic as you'd prefer. The scenery HAS changed, the jury in Minneapolis saw to that. Now is the time to covet the momentum, to keep it at the forefront until every city has it's "Minneapolis moment". This necessity is NOT abetted by condemning a mythically generic demographic as fair weather "white people". The good will of white people remains indispensable if this moment is to be parlayed into a major shift of national consciousness. In any case, consciousness and empathy can not grow in an arena infested by a spirit of despair. So go forward with a high mind supported by high ideals and trust in the righteousness of the cause. The "Cause" is, after all, to accept and integrate and then to renew our society into one improved by its refusal to recognize otherism.
old white 60's rebel gets off soap box now
Goodheart
(5,318 posts)I would abandon justice as a matter of convenience? Oh really? That's just insulting, and dare I say, racist in itself.
At least he/she didn't whine this time about my "whiteness".
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)whether they know it or not. And that is simply untrue.
Happy Hoosier
(7,264 posts)Its supposed to make you feel like that as an ally, you must be willing to subjugate your own judgement to that of others.
I will certainly listen, but insisting that allies become compliant toadies is not gonna happen... at least not with me. Ill tell my friends when I think theyre wrong. That doesnt mean Ill never change my mind, but... convince me rather than trying to shame me.
cate94
(2,810 posts)Its about the authors perception that many allies disappear. Again, it isnt about you, except that youve centered this discussion on your feelings instead of trying to understand theirs.
As white people, we need to listen in order to become better allies. What can we do to develop trust? How can we do better?
Goodheart
(5,318 posts)electric_blue68
(14,848 posts)the proper description of what you are calling the OP is bigotted
. Anyone can be biggoted to a other group. In the USA racism is reserved for white people's biggotry towards black people because it has systemic and invidual (coming from the system) aspects
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Bettie
(16,083 posts)right here on a left leaning message board. Not everyone here, but, seemingly a growing group of people who are really quick to assume that Black people killed by police did something to deserve it.
Sandra Bland was stopped and eventually killed for not using a turn signal.
Here, the narrative was: "she shouldn't have argued with the cop"
Tamir Rice was killed for playing in a park with a toy gun. He was shot less than 2 seconds after the cops rolled up, before they even exited the car.
Here, the narrative was: "he should have complied with instructions" (Within two seconds, shouted over a speaker from a moving police car coming right at him.)
There are others, but the point is, as a white woman, I can go through my life not even thinking of police. If I get stopped, it is an inconvenience, but I don't get stopped, because my white skin keeps me from being a threat in the normal, everyday things people do.
I can walk down a street anywhere and no one will question my reason for being there. They certainly won't call a cop. I could jog anywhere and no one would call the police or hunt me down and kill me.
The contrast is inescapable and it is real.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Goodheart
(5,318 posts)The theme of the OP was not that whites are privileged... very few here deny that.... but that whites can't be trusted. Is that what you see every day?
Bettie
(16,083 posts)Support is conditional upon the BIPOC always behaving in ways that are 'comfortable' for white people.
I do recall in every one of the police shootings, for example, there were people whose primary objective seemed to be to find a reason why "this one" was OK.
Oh, well, they didn't comply!
Oh, yeah, he complied, but he didn't do it right!
I remember so many people way back with Zimmerman, coming up with justification after justification as to why Zimmerman was entirely in the right and Martin deserved to die.
As a group, we can't be trusted.
That doesn't mean that individuals (many individuals) can't earn trust, but as a group, no, not now.
Hopefully eventually that will change.
Goodheart
(5,318 posts)If you're going to ascribe a general characteristic to a group you should at least stick to how the majority within that group would behave, and NO, I didn't see a majority of white people on this board say Trayvon deserved to die, or that the majority of white people here try to make excuses for killing black people.
Speak for yourself.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)certain white folks around here circle the wagons, swarm the thread and accuse us of "calling all white people racist" - and then lecture us on the proper, respectful, appreciative, and appropriate way we should engage with our great white saviors or else risk them walking away from the cause.
Goodheart
(5,318 posts)Your OP certainly DID attack white people in general. You have a history of that, in fact.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Some people see "white people" in print and get so triggered, they lose their reason and all reading comprehension skills.
electric_blue68
(14,848 posts)through the decades esp from the '80s onward in reading or listening to things pointed out by black authors, commentators, in order to keep learning. Even in phone conversations on occasion.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)is not really an ally, so it's fine if they sit it out since they only get in the way by trying to make it all about them.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Fortunately, I imagine a majority of DUers do the right thing "in the real world" and tune out the finger-wagging and accusations occasionally lobbed on the site.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)We just aren't interested in getting saddled with people who call themselves allies but have no interest in the cause beyond massaging their own egos and patting themselves in the back.
wryter2000
(46,025 posts)There's more of that in the general public, but you see it here, too.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)white people perceive black children as being older than they are and by a significant number of years, as well as less innocent than white children.
What that translate into is black children not being given the same level of protection and protective thoughts the majority of adults - and society - have (has) about/for children.
This perception, rooted in racism, means black children won't get the same benefit of the doubt that white children get and will get harsher treatment and penalties from authority figures.
If you see black children as older than they actually are, and automatically less innocent because of their skin hue, then you're going to treat that child as you would an adult in terms of punishments and how you react to a situation.
Skin hue, for racists, can determine whether a cop attempts to de-escalate a situation or simply start shooting. Think on that.
So even though those studies have been shared on DU and people have commented on, been appalled by, and rallying against such racist thinking, some don't apply what those studies tell them to everyday life and various events that take place.
Either they forgot, didn't think to look for that racist perception in themselves, or see it as two separate things - an abstract study that showed the racist thought application of seeing black children as adults and what they must think of as real life. Even though those studies accurately reflect real life for black children and black families.
And it's not just black children - brown children as well. Adam Toledo was 13 - a child. Yet racists in the news media refer to him as a man. And they do so knowing full the implications because they fully understand how to use those racist perceptions to stoke anger in others.
In a new study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, researchers asked college students and police officers to estimate the ages of young children who they were told had committed a crime (both misdemeanors and felonies). In both groups, respondents were far more likely to overestimate the ages of young black boys than young white boys; they were also less likely to view black children as innocent.
"Children in most societies are considered to be in a distinct group with characteristics such as innocence and the need for protection," study author and professor of psychology at UCLA Phillip Atiba Goff said of the study. "Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent."
The goal of the study, according to researchers, was to determine the extent to which respondents dehumanized young black children, and how this racist dehumanization can lead to violence and unjust treatment. "f human childhood affords protections against harsh, adult-like treatment, then in contexts where these children are dehumanized, they can be treated with adult severity" -- specifically in the criminal justice system, researchers wrote.
There was also a correlation between the police officers' responses and their record of using force against people suspected of a crime, specifically young black boys, though Goff noted that "future research should try to clarify the relationship between dehumanization and racial disparities in police use of force."
This groundbreaking study by the Georgetown Law Center on Poverty and Inequality providesfor the first time data showing that adults view Black girls as less innocent and more adult-like than their white peers, especially in the age range of 514. The report builds on similar results that have emerged from studies of adult perceptions of Black boys. In 2014, for example, research by Professor Phillip Goff and colleagues revealed that beginning at the age of 10, Black boys are more likely than their white peers to be misperceived as older, viewed as guilty of suspected crimes, and face police violence if accused of a crime.
Given established discrepancies in law enforcement and juvenile court practices that disproportionately affect Black girls, the perception of Black girls as less innocent and more adult-like may contribute to more punitive exercise of discretion by those in positions of authority, greater use of force, and harsher penalties.
I've started and stopped several posts over the last week or so only to be so disgusted and saddened by things that I deleted them. I kept one saved draft. Using it as a reference now for links, though I'm not posting a link to studies from the past - could be construed as a negative call out. Wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong perception.
Bettie
(16,083 posts)thank you for posting!
Maeve
(42,279 posts)Glad it isn't just me doing that--"disgusted and saddened" sounds so familiar.
Thank you for the study links.
Bettie
(16,083 posts)constantly.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Sometimes I sign off DU because of it.
I feel it's just not worth the grief I'll get for posting what ought to be pretty obvious.
electric_blue68
(14,848 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 26, 2021, 01:35 PM - Edit history (2)
(I've read a similar version of this in the past year plus)
... that black children are less innocent... to me esp boy kids between 5 - 10? that seems wrong to me.
Almost all of the time I'm probably comfortable around black tweens, younger teens as I'm out and about. Maybe I need a little work there but it's a rare thing, or maybe I haven't been uncomfortable.
What's interesting is feeling comfortable with mid-later black teens. I attribute a part of this to having known black young men when I was a teen in HS, and Art College; friends, acquaintances.
Happy Hoosier
(7,264 posts)I have never seen that here. In fact, I think that the vast majority of people here are very skeptical that police shootings, especially of black people, are justified. That doesnt mean they never are.
And I have no patience for people whose goto rhetorical tactic is indignant shaming.
betsuni
(25,442 posts)"I guess we'll never really know what happened" "There are two sides to every story." Now that we have overwhelming video evidence of these things, don't hear that as often, but still too many assumptions that victims must have done something wrong.
When I visit the States (I'm an obvious foreigner where I live) I'm amazed at how invisible I am. A middle-class middle-aged white woman -- nobody keeps an eye on me in case I cause trouble or shoplift or whatever. I could steal a car in the middle of the day on a busy street and nobody would notice. I think of all the crimes I could get away with. The contrast is inescapable and it is real, indeed.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Now we get "Well, we don't know what happened before the video started."
betsuni
(25,442 posts)It's always something.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)Cant make everyone happy.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)how well it goes. Everyone needs allies and trust is a decision you make or don't. This sort of thing drives allies away from a just and necessary cause-ending institutional racism and the dreadful police violence it causes.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)of ending institutional racism and police violence, they aren't really an ally and the cause is probably better off without them.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)for the good of all people particularly for Black people and Asians as well, it appears. However, you are not better off without allies...even those you sometimes disagree with. In order to move forward, we need as many allies as possible...people of all colors. This is an American problem and will take the bulk of us to solve it.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)What we DON'T need are allies who keep centering the issue on themselves and their feelings and try to lecture us on how we should treat and speak to them (especially considering how regularly and comfortably they consistently offend us with their comments and then whine about it when we point that out) and then threaten to walk away because they feel uncomfortable, as you suggest they will do. Those kinds of "allies" - plenty of whom seem to be on this board - we can do with out because not only are they pretty useless to the cause, they actually get in the way, waste our time, and drain our energy.
wryter2000
(46,025 posts)A lot of things here needed to be said.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)won't 'offend you with their comments' is not a particularly useful criterion. It would not be my criteria in any case. Did it ever occur to you that someone might have something you might not have considered to add to the effort? Perhaps listening and respecting all points of view makes more sense.
I have not suggested anyone would walk away...I have no idea whether they would or wouldn't. I speak only for myself. In my humble opinion, the fight for justice needs more allies, not fewer-some of whom will undoubtedly irritate you with their comments and opinions.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)as the valued ally you think you are. Especially by POC.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)single person in this country whether they know it or not. And you may realize that allies are important at some point if you want to make progress which I do. I don't want my kids still doing this when I am gone. And on a more personal note what an unwarranted snarky attack on me. For shame.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,342 posts)Is the apparent belief from the OP that they seem to think they know all there is to know about white people, while white people are portrayed as bumbling dullards when it comes to understanding black people.
Perhaps that should not be a surprise given that is the popular narrative in the media and elsewhere. Personally, I feel like theres always more to learn and I think that largely cuts both ways when different groups are attempting to reach a mutual understanding but maybe thats too last century.
Jedi Guy
(3,184 posts)That's just the issue here. To me, there's no attempt to build mutual understanding. There's no desire for dialogue or discussion. If you agree 100% of the time, you're a Good Ally. If you have the temerity to disagree about something even once, you're written off as a Bad Ally. The OP seems to want to dictate to others rather than discuss any differences of opinion or perception in a productive way.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)This isn't about you. If you don't like how we're doing things or think we're not deferential or appreciative enough of you, you are free not to assist us. We have plenty of allies who don't feel the need to center our movement around them and their feelings.
Jedi Guy
(3,184 posts)But of course, you knew that.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)That's exactly what you said. You just dressed it up in fluffy language. But I (and plenty of other people here, I'm sure) hear you loud and clear.
Jedi Guy
(3,184 posts)Beringia
(4,316 posts)A lot of anecdotes come to mind, but one I think of is how when you talk to a person from all stripes, often it takes about 2 minutes before the other person turns the conversation to being about them.
I heard a Pacific Northwest Indian explaining how in his language, there is no word for "I or me", because the Ego is so Big it doesn't need a word.
And then you have somebody like Barbara Bush
The former first lady made the following remark on national television shortly before the commencement of the invasion of Iraq:
Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? Its not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?
The comment came about during a Good Morning America interview with the couple who were formerly President and First Lady, George H.W. Bush and Barbara Bush. The interview was conducted by Diane Sawyer in Houston scant hours before the couples son, President George W. Bush, delivered a televised ultimatum to Saddam Hussein to step down from power and leave Iraq or face U.S.-led military action. The chat with the senior Bushes aired the following morning, 18 March 2003.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/barbara-bush-beautiful-mind/
I look to some people on Facebook to always express compassion
kcr
(15,315 posts)Or rather, that shouldn't be the driving motivation for justice. The allies who are in it solely for that reason, for the feelies, tend to be the ones who will give it up the moment they feel they aren't appreciated. The moment they feel like someone called them a racist (because whoa! that's the worst thing!). It feels like this piece is speaking to that crowd, almost as if it's using their ego against them for leverage. I think it's a waste of time if that's the case.
SYFROYH
(34,165 posts)Last edited Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)
...where individuals have their good moments and fail at other times. Only to come back again and be authentically helpful.
Hopefully, all of us don't fail at the same time.
eta: which is to say an individual is not very reliable at any given moment, but hopefully we are on average.
Response to StarfishSaver (Original post)
Chautauquas This message was self-deleted by its author.
Blasphemer
(3,261 posts)For me, it's the predictable reaction to hearing hard truths among some people who consider themselves to be allies that makes me pessimistic about racial justice and generally unwilling to have conversations with white people about race. Those conversations, without fail, usually lead to the invocation Martin Luther King. Now, I have taken to simply sharing with them his words from his final book:
"A good many observers have remarked that if equality could come at once the Negro would not be ready for it. I submit that the white American is even more unprepared. The Negro on a mass scale is working vigorously to overcome his deficiencies and his maladjustments. Wherever there are job-training programs Negroes are crowding them. Those who are employed are revealing an eagerness for advancement never before so widespread and persistent. In the average Negro home a new appreciation of culture is manifest. The circulation of periodicals and books written for Negroes is now in the multimillions while a decade ago it was scarcely past one hundred thousand. In the schools more Negro students are demanding courses that lead to college and beyond, refusing to settle for the crude vocational training that limited so many of them in the past.
Whites, it must frankly be said, are not putting in a similar mass effort to reeducate themselves out of their racial ignorance. It is an aspect of their sense of superiority that the white people of America believe they have so little to learn."
Those final two sentences still ring true 54 years later.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Thanks for the reminder. And yes, it is still true today.
Jedi Guy
(3,184 posts)"If you don't agree with me/us every single time on every single issue, you're not real allies." People of good conscience can disagree on particular incidents while still supporting the cause overall. It's possible to acknowledge a police-involved shooting of a Black/brown person as justified when it is, while also condemning and protesting against the ones that aren't. The reality is that some are justified and some aren't, and lumping them all into one category is done in defiance of that reality.
Being an ally doesn't require totally surrendering your judgment and perceptions to someone else.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Or do you just want to complain about what you think I've said in other threads?
Jedi Guy
(3,184 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But you do you...