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Thu May 6, 2021, 04:55 AM

If trump issued pocket pardons wouldn't the Biden Administration know?

If he had and since he is no longer President, couldn't they release the information and say who has one right now? Don't want to see AG Garland start rounding up these cretins and we get the Gomer Pyle treatment. Surprise, surprise, surprise! (Yeah, my age is showing, but so what?)

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Reply If trump issued pocket pardons wouldn't the Biden Administration know? (Original post)
padah513 May 2021 OP
jimfields33 May 2021 #1
StarfishSaver May 2021 #2
getagrip_already May 2021 #3
StarfishSaver May 2021 #4
getagrip_already May 2021 #5
StarfishSaver May 2021 #10
getagrip_already May 2021 #14
StarfishSaver May 2021 #16
MineralMan May 2021 #6
lagomorph777 May 2021 #8
Jose Garcia May 2021 #18
lagomorph777 May 2021 #19
Jose Garcia May 2021 #21
StarfishSaver May 2021 #23
StarfishSaver May 2021 #11
MineralMan May 2021 #12
StarfishSaver May 2021 #15
Wounded Bear May 2021 #7
gratuitous May 2021 #9
FelineOverlord May 2021 #13
lagomorph777 May 2021 #20
former9thward May 2021 #17
kentuck May 2021 #22

Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 05:22 AM

1. Good question

My guess would be that president Biden does not know. They didn’t even speak. They had no turnover. I would imagine if there are any they are in a vault somewhere.

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 06:33 AM

2. He might not know, but AG Garland and his team would know

 

And if Trump had issued "pocket pardons" to anyone under investigation, they would have been informed.

There's no way people with pardons in their pockets would stand back and go through the stigma, expense, and hassle of being investigated, being subject to search warrants, etc. if they had a get out jail free card.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #2)

Thu May 6, 2021, 08:33 AM

3. knowing trump....

He would hold onto them for future profit. The recipients may not even know. Hey Rudy, I might have signed a pardon for you before I left office, but I need a favor..........

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #3)

Thu May 6, 2021, 08:49 AM

4. If Rudy had a pardon, it would have been invoked by now

 

There's no way he would be going through all of this if he had a pardon.

But that said, if Trump issued a "pocket pardon" (which I don't think are a thing anyway) and is still holding onto it, it's not a valid pardon because it has to be delivered to and accepted by the person while Trump has the power to issue pardons, i.e., during his presidency. Writing down "I'm pardoning Rudy" but not giving it to him while he's still president isn't a pardon. It's just a note.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #4)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:36 AM

5. Hmmm, ill have to leave that to legal scholars....

The constitution is pretty silent on the process. It would come down to legal history and past precedent I guess.

Hope you are right. But in the end a court would have to decide.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #5)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:47 AM

10. I'm a Constitutional lawyer and law professor

 

Last edited Thu May 6, 2021, 11:30 AM - Edit history (1)

I am very confident this is how any court would view this. It wouldn't be a very complicated or controversial analysis for any court. It is highly unlikely that pocket pardons are valid. But it is firm precedent that a pardon is operable if it's delivered and accepted. The "pocket" in the term "pocket pardon" means it's in the pocket of the person pardoned, not in that of the person issuing the pardon.

Imagine if a friend of George W. Bush got into legal trouble for something they did years ago when their buddy was president. Assuming the statute of limitations hadn't run and they were investigated or indicted, W, couldn't just pop up and say, "I pardoned him back in 2008, but didn't tell anyone."

But even more important, he couldn't say, "I pardoned him back in 2008, but didn't even tell him." That failure to deliver the pardon, in and of itself, would be enough to make it inoperable.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #10)

Thu May 6, 2021, 10:24 AM

14. Great info! Thanks! n/t

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #14)

Thu May 6, 2021, 11:31 AM

16. ...

 

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:40 AM

6. The validity of such pardons would immediately come into question,

if they even exist. Personally, I doubt that any such "pocket" pardons exist at all. Further, I don't think they'd stand up legally. Such a thing would probably be found to be unconstitutional and invalid by the federal courts, including the SCOTUS.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #6)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:44 AM

8. +1 It doesn't count if you don't publish it.

No backsies.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #8)

Thu May 6, 2021, 01:53 PM

18. There is no requirement in the Constitution that pardons be published

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Response to Jose Garcia (Reply #18)

Thu May 6, 2021, 02:46 PM

19. But if they're not published, they can't be shown to exist.

Therefore no reason to believe such a pardon is anything but fraudulent.

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Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #19)

Thu May 6, 2021, 03:12 PM

21. It would probably have to have been witnessed and notarized

And since it would likely be challenged, it would have to be convincing to a judge.

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Response to Jose Garcia (Reply #21)

Thu May 6, 2021, 03:18 PM

23. i doubt any court would ever uphold such a pardon - even the Trump judges

 

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #6)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:48 AM

11. Agreed

 

An undelivered pardon is just a note on a piece of paper.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #11)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:57 AM

12. Yes. And further, there would need to be a clear

proof of issuance during Trump's term and a solid chain of custody proven, assuming that Trump handed a pardon to someone to produce later on.

The power of the pardon, it seems to me, is reserved for the sitting President during his term of office only. I don't see some sort of secret pardon, known only to the former President and the person pardoned, standing up to judicial scrutiny.

First, it would have to be some sort of blanket pardon, I'd think. Second, why was it not published during the issuing President's term?

This seems like a very, very unlikely thing to pass judicial muster. I doubt that Trump even did such a thing anyhow.



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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Thu May 6, 2021, 11:28 AM

15. Exactly!

 

You explained it very well.

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:42 AM

7. I don't think "pocket pardons" are really a thing...

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Response to Wounded Bear (Reply #7)

Thu May 6, 2021, 09:45 AM

9. I think you're right

I'd rather concern myself with things that are real.

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 10:03 AM

13. If trump issued pocket pardons wouldn't the Biden Administration know?

Are “pocket” pardons the same as “secret” pardons

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Response to FelineOverlord (Reply #13)

Thu May 6, 2021, 02:47 PM

20. Yes, or just call them "pretend" pardons, made up after POTUS is out of office.

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 12:50 PM

17. Yes they would know, and he did not.

Just more rumor for the internet mill.

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Response to padah513 (Original post)

Thu May 6, 2021, 03:15 PM

22. Would those hold up in Court?

They could have written them up yesterday?

Richard Nixon survivors could have just found a pardon in one of his old suit pockets.

That sounds like a scam from the get-go.

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