Sat Jun 26, 2021, 05:40 AM
Soph0571 (9,685 posts)
They are bad faith actors. Period.![]() Graphic mine On both sides of the pond it is the same. Right wing policy is all just really nasty theatre, that enthrals those in the stalls. You cannot debate smoke and mirrors. You cannot defeat by logic, policy built on dramaturgy.
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11 replies, 2622 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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Soph0571 | Jun 2021 | OP |
Bernardo de La Paz | Jun 2021 | #1 | |
Baitball Blogger | Jun 2021 | #4 | |
Jim__ | Jun 2021 | #2 | |
Bernardo de La Paz | Jun 2021 | #5 | |
gab13by13 | Jun 2021 | #8 | |
Alice Kramden | Jun 2021 | #10 | |
bucolic_frolic | Jun 2021 | #3 | |
Bernardo de La Paz | Jun 2021 | #6 | |
The Magistrate | Jun 2021 | #7 | |
smirkymonkey | Jun 2021 | #9 | |
FM123 | Jun 2021 | #11 |
Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 05:56 AM
Bernardo de La Paz (44,181 posts)
1. Related old saying: You cant reason a person out of something they were never reasoned into. . . nt
Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #1)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:12 AM
Baitball Blogger (44,734 posts)
4. Good one.
Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 06:24 AM
Jim__ (13,652 posts)
2. No, I will not debate you
From Laurie Penny's essay - from September 2018 - that contains the quote cited in the OP:
Every day, people on the internet ask why I won’t “debate” some self-actualizing gig-economy fascist or other, as if formal, public debate were the only way to steer public conversation. If you won’t debate, the argument goes, you’re an enemy of free speech. You’re basically no better than a Nazi, and certainly far worse than any of the actual Nazis muttering about not being allowed to preach racism from prestigious pulpits. Well-meaning liberals insist that “sunlight is the best disinfectant,” anti-fascists disagree, the far right orders more popcorn, and round and round we go on the haunted carousel of western liberal thought until we’re all queasy.
This bad-faith argument is a repeating refrain of this low, dishonest decade, and this month it built to another crescendo. In the U.S., The New Yorker bowed to public pressure and disinvited Steve Bannon, Trump’s neo-nationalist former chief strategist, from its literary festival. And in the U.K., The Economist chose to do the opposite. I’m accidentally responsible for a very small amount of the fuss here. I was due to speak at the Economist’s Open Future festival, where Bannon was scheduled to be interviewed by the editor in chief directly after the “future of MeToo” panel I’d be on with journalists Laura Bates and Ally Fogg. My note to The Economist, in part: To speak personally, my opposition to Bannon’s place at this conference has nothing to do with wishing to see him silenced — that would be infeasible as well as illiberal. Bill Maher loves to talk about free speech on his program, and, when he does, he usually has on a guest who completely agrees with him. I'd really like to see him discuss the issue with someone like Laurie Penny. |
Response to Jim__ (Reply #2)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:28 AM
Bernardo de La Paz (44,181 posts)
5. The problem is it is never a real debate, per OP. They lie, misrepresent facts, use fallacies
They gish-gallop. They spew out a half-dozen mistruths and half-truths and lies in one 30 second rant and then there is no time to address more than one or two, so the rest of the garbage just sits there and is accepted in the minds of the gullible. I see the gullible "fellow travellers" on RW sites frequently when I go there. Someone will say something completely bogus like "Fauci has an investment stake in coffin makers" and another person will post "I didn't know that; good to know" and then they will post it on other threads as if it were fact. It is confirmation bias writ large. They use fallacious debating tactics. They divert with what-aboutism. They prop up strawmen and knock them down. They quote out of context and edit videos out of context. There is just not enough time in almost all "debates" to shoot down all the bogus debating tactic and falsehoods. Thus it is not worth wrestling with the pigs. It requires a thorough point-by-point debunking. But that ends up being a long written piece which the RW is more likely to skip as "too long; did not read". |
Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #5)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:40 AM
gab13by13 (14,688 posts)
8. These snake oil salesmen
are good at what they do, and they have a bigger platform than the back of a covered wagon, they have the MSM. I may have paid the barker at the carnival a quarter to go see the bearded lady when I was a young lad, one time, but today's barkers get people to go back into that tent over and over again.
Critical thinking is one thing, but not even having common sense is another. |
Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #5)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 08:02 AM
Alice Kramden (1,759 posts)
10. Agree, as you stated
"They use fallacious debating tactics" - plus all the tricks you mentioned, and the media expands the reach of their lies
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Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:11 AM
bucolic_frolic (35,332 posts)
3. Yes, we have to create logic theater by pounding the table so to speak
Emphasis, repetition, shouting, talking points, concerted effort by thought leaders. It is something in which Democrats do not excel.
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Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #3)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:30 AM
Bernardo de La Paz (44,181 posts)
6. Counter-propaganda succeeds when is targetted to audience, short, on point, true, & fast to respond.
Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:39 AM
The Magistrate (93,137 posts)
7. Never Saw It Said So Well, Ma'am
Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 07:54 AM
smirkymonkey (63,221 posts)
9. +1000
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Response to Soph0571 (Original post)
Sat Jun 26, 2021, 08:28 AM
FM123 (9,836 posts)
11. Yep.
Bad faith actors performing theatre.
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