Question about condos. Residents own their apartments, but who...

[TreasonousBastard]

owns the structure, and the common areas of the building?

[GulfCoast66]

1. Often the owners. That was the case in the fallen building.

They normally pay a management company to run it, but fee increases have to be voted on.

This is total speculation, but based on my experience in the past. I won’t be surprised if the reason repair/rebuild was not done earlier is due to owners reluctance to pay. The assessment could easily be 100k or more per owner.

Ocean front steel and concrete buildings are not a viable long term Situation. Saltwater is insidious. It rots everything is touched. Ironically a solid built wood home with no particle board or plywood is the best for ocean front living. We have hundreds of them on the east coast that have stood for hundreds of years. The wood just gets harder.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. I'm on the East Coast and agree for smaller structures, but...

no way are you building 500 unit wood buildings anywhere, much less on the beach.

Anyway, I imagine even the owners of multimillion $ apartments might blanch at ever increasing assessments to keep the thing standing.

[GulfCoast66]

4. Yeah, that was my point. Although I made it poorly.

These concrete and steel buildings should never have been built. Not on a barrier island. They are all temporary. I might not see it, but it will happen. Whereas on some island there are 200 year old wood homes still standing strong.

On the mainland they are safe. But barrier islands are temporary by their nature.

I should have been more specific in my post.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. No problem. Long Island has Fire Island and other barriers running almost its entire length...

but not a chance you'll ever see a high rise show up there. One area near Montauk has what are called the "rolling dunes" and are exactly that.

And, yes, there are lots of Victorian mansions still standing on the bedrock. Some are falling into Long Island Sound because the cliffs are wearing away, but that's another problem.

[OAITW r.2.0]

3. Interesting comment on ownership.

I suspect you are right about the sharing of cost to fix the structural problems. Whether the failure was due to poor maintenance or subsurface changes to the ground due to water erosion will be something the courts will probably weigh in on...and that may certainly impact the future of hi-rises on coastal property.

[brush]

7. The management company and the owners share the blame.

The management company for not insisting on the ownership group ponying up the money to maintain the building, and it not, exit the agreement to manage.

There's a lot of fault to go around. Also the inspectors giving the building clean bill of health. I suspect bribery there.

[RobinA]

28. I Have A Problem

with decisions like that made by owners. I could be an owner. I know jack about structural issues, salt air, salt water, limestone bedrock... I live in an old Pennsylvania farmhouse. You say there are cracks? And is that water wet? So if I move to a condo in Florida (before this ever happened), I'm probably not going to be too impressed by some engineer telling me there are cracks. I simply don't know enough to make that kind of decision. And unless all my building mates are engineers, probably the other residents don't either.

[obamanut2012]

24. Yup, i posted down thread

I'm also in SOFL, north of Surfside. have always lived on the coast within five miles inland. The only way I would ever live right on the ocean is in a wood home with a triple-strapped roof. Even stucco will just slide off in pieces after a few years right on the beach. Madness.

[tonedevil]

5. CAM...

Common Area Maintenance fees is how it is handled in California. Of course we have building regulations.

[Hugin]

6. I was wondering if the building is condemned would a homeowners insurance policy cover it?

Any DU legal juggernauts care to opine?

I find myself doubting the coverage would extend much more than the fraction of the original cost of constructing the structure the condo/apartment represents.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. I don't think any insurance covers a building just rotting away. Maybe, if there were...

something else, like fire or an earthquake dropping the building and the rot just made the damage worse.

[Hugin]

10. That is what I'm thinking...

The loophole here is the fact that even though the building has been condemned (and declared uninhabitable), it's still standing.

What a problem for the people buying into one of these co-op structures!

Maybe with a very specific clause in a policy, but, the lifespan of a structure is entirely predictable. So, it would be nearly impossible to get replacement insurance for a unit in a building near it's sundown. Especially, including appreciated value. There's no insurance company who would take on a risk on a given. It would be foolish to do so.

[brush]

11. I would think the management company shares the blame, as do the inspectors...

who gave good reports on the health of the building (bribes?). The owners I guess went by the good reports so it looks like it falls back on the management company who should've been straight with the owners to pony up the money to fix the deterioration which if caught years ago, the building would be still standing.

If the owners refused the management company should've walked but it seems they wanted the money to keep coming in and didn't think the building would collapse. Everyone knows better now that it's too late.

[Hugin]

12. The most troubling part to me about the situation is this case is probably not unique...

it may be almost universal.

They may see those 'bribes' as a cost of doing business without seeing the danger they pose. "Aw, what could happen?" Well, here's an example.

[GregariousGroundhog]

21. Homeowners insurance for a condo usually only covers things within the owner's six walls

I'll use the condo I live in as an example, let's pretend it gets hit by a tornado and when I come up out of the underground parking half the building is missing.

The condo association has an insurance policy that will pay to rebuild the structure. The association will rebuild to the point where my unit essentially consists of the framing for the four exterior walls, an OSB or Plywood subfloor, and open trusses in the ceiling (when I look up, I'll see the subfloor of the unit above me).

That's where my personal policy would kick in. I would be responsible for the sheetrock on the interior side of the outside walls and on the ceiling, for the interior partition walls, for whatever flooring to lay on top of the subfloor, for the cabinets, etc.

Hopefully the affected association in Florida had an all-risks insurance policy. If they had a named-hazards policy the residents may be screwed and if the association had no policy at the residents are definitely screwed.

[Hugin]

26. Thanks for the informed info, GG.

Yeah, pretty dire. That's quite the doughnut hole they've got going and unless the homeowner is really really into the industrial open décor look, they won't be satisfied.

[Deminpenn]

13. Condos have a board elected from among the residents

who set the rules of ownership and are responsible for ensuring maintenance of the common areas like the roof, the sewer lines, the gutters/downspouts, the lawn, the exterior of the building and so forth. Each owner pays a monthy condo fee that covers costs for routine things like landscaping and snow removal. But if there is a major repair needed like a new roof or new windows or other big ticket item, owners are required to pay a "special assessment" based on the size, for example, of their unit so owners with smaller units pay less than owners with larger ones.

Some of the monthly fees are hefty and special assessments can be too.

[OAITW r.2.0]

14. Article on CNN about this very subject....

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/us/surfside-condo-owners-assessments-invs/index.html

[Klaralven]

22. I would think that fixing fundamental structural problems with the columns would cost more than this

The most costly project listed was "facade, balcony and railing repairs," for $3.4 million.

Questionable whether the planned maintenance would have fixed the building.

[snowybirdie]

15. They all do

And they all must share in needed repairs. Usually through a special assessment. Sometimes that's paid in installments over time.

[hlthe2b]

16. Home owner's association... i.e., all the condo owners in aggregate

[Towlie]

17. Here's a CNN article published today that will answer most of your questions.

 
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Condo owners in Surfside building were facing assessments for $15 million worth of repairs

(CNN)Condo owners in the South Florida tower that collapsed last week were facing assessments for millions of dollars worth of repairs -- with payments set to begin a week after the building's deadly fall.
The Champlain Towers South condo association approved a $15 million assessment in April to complete repairs required under the county's 40-year recertification process, according to documents obtained by CNN.
The documents show that more than two years had passed after association members received a report about "major structural damage" in the building before they started the assessment process to pay for necessary repairs.

Owners would have to pay assessments ranging from $80,190 for one-bedroom units to $336,135 for the owner of the building's four-bedroom penthouse, a document sent to the building's residents said. The deadline to pay upfront or choose paying a monthly fee lasting 15 years was July 1.

more...

Once the developer has sold all of the units, each condo owner becomes a member of the association, which owns the "common elements". The portion of assessments that each unit is liable for is determined in the initial contract and agreed to by the initial unit owner, and is very difficult to change afterward.

[Raven]

18. I used to advise clients who were looking to buy a condo:

"Your don't just buy the unit, you buy the building."

[Klaralven]

19. And like other assets, selling at the right time is key!

[Towlie]

20. Yes, and you buy into the association as well, so you need to screen them as they screen you.

 
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It's in your best interest to ask them questions as they ask you questions. After every question from them, fire back with a question of your own!

Make sure the condo docs you were given are accurate and up to date. Find out how much they have in reserves, when the last inspections were and what the results were. Look for needed repairs and ask how long they've been that way and when the association plans to fix them, and ask for the minutes of past meetings. Also, ask them if they obey state condo laws, or even their own bylaws. And if they show reluctance or offense, find out what they're hiding from you!

And after you've done all of that and are satisfied, then you can think about how nicely the unit is decorated.

[obamanut2012]

23. I'm also in SOFL

Not far from Surfside, but in a different county. We own our condos, the HOA basically takes care of things like compliance, coordinating replacing our roofs, painting, painting driveways, etc., and common areas like the mailboxes, and they contract with our weekly landscapers, bulk cable and internet deals, bulk home insurance deal. We also have a POA which manages the lake, pools, tennis courts, pickleball court, bike sheds. The HOA is an elected resident board augmented by an HOA management company. The POA is fully an elected resident board. The HOA alos has a separate compliance committee. It sounds complicated, but works well.

on edit: we have very, very few high-rise condos in my area, most are "villa" one-story, or two/two and a half townhome-style condos. I personally would never live in a multi-residential building higher than three stories, because of fire fears. And, I've lived on the coast my whole life, so I would never live RIGHT on the ocean. Very high maintenance -- salt is a disinfectant, but it's also a destroyer.

[Towlie]

25. Yes, I'm in Broward County too, but comfortably west of the beach in Pembroke Pines.

 
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I knew to avoid the crazy Winter traffic along the coastline.

[obamanut2012]

27. What you just said, my friend!

It's also why I mainly play golf from May to October, and only go to the beach early Sunday mornings during the Winter.

And why I love my little villa condo, even with all the damned iguanas teasing my cats through the window.

I need to run by your area soon and get some Mojo Donuts (maple and bacon yummmmm).