General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt's a BFD that Trump Org and not Trump himself is getting indicted today
Lots of folk are disappointed that today's indictment is going after the Trump business and not Trump personally, believing that this is somehow letting Trump off the hook. But that's not the case. And, in fact, this is an even bigger deal than targeting Trump himself right now, for a couple of reasons.
First, the Trump Org IS Trump. There is no light nor air between him and his business. As some observers have pointed out over the years, the Trump companies aren't some large conglomerates with tentacles everywhere and complex layers of management and staff. This is a pretty rinky dink operation consisting of just a handful of people - Trump, his grifter kids and a few hangers on. They operate out of offices on one floor of Trump tower that look more like the back of store than an international business concern, people shouting at each other down the hall and wandering in and out of each other's offices.
Going after Trump companies IS going after Trump.
Moreover, given how raggedy this organization seems to operate, it's unlikely that they took the correct steps to insulate Trump and his team from liability for their actions done in the name of the company. it probably won't be long before the prosecutors and court "pierce the corporate veil" that would normally protect individual corporate owners from personal liability.
In addition, this case is going to cause as much trouble, angst, and suck up as much time and money as any prosecution against him personally - probably more, because he won't be able to get away with the games he plays when fighting personal battles.
Also, Trump's entire ego and brand are wrapped up in his business. He's gotten very good at making any attempts to go after him personally as a witchhunt, done for political purposes and because he's such a untouchably brilliant businessman, that's all they've got, supposedly. This indictment is going to put a lie to all of that. He's not only going to be publicly exposed as a fraud (indeed, the case apparently is based on fraud), but the world will see what a hot mess his business actually is.
AND the best part is that this isn't over. While he's fighting to protect his company, prosecutors are still laying the groundwork to prosecute him individually. And the mess they expose in the corporate case will only make it harder for him. So he's got his hands completely full and when they come after Trump personally, he'll have an even bigger fight on his hands.
This is going to be good ...
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Good perspective. I figured this was comparable to a RICO case, where they're gradually working at the chain of command.
You make it sound like it's not that tall a pyramid to climb
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)True Blue American
(17,972 posts)It is the beginning of the end. I agree Trump Org is a small business. Trump made his money off cheating others.
To me it matches the Enron case.
http://www.american-historama.org/1990-present-modern-era/enron-scandal.htm
https://www.britannica.com/event/Enron-scandal
Volaris
(10,260 posts)For Putins russian Mob-State.
I feel like, this is going to be bigger by at least an order of magnitude.
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)But the results should be the same.
Volaris
(10,260 posts)If Trump and his broodlings are destroyed publicly, I actually dont give a fuck if he goes to jail.
His grave will become a public urinal, regardless.
llmart
(15,501 posts)Trump has never cared about much of anything but money and the so-called prestige he got/gets from it. His name has already been destroyed by being in the public eye 24/7, but now his name won't be worth anything.
diverdownjt
(699 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)niyad
(112,435 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,076 posts).
As they see more and more criming, they will start to loose hope and might accept direct criminal charges later.
They will see Trump for the scammer he is, and how he's built a system to dodge taxes and funnel money.
.
Volaris
(10,260 posts)It was ALL Alan and his hateful, golddigging UNGRATEFUL KIDS, and now the Deep State is using THEIR CRIMES to continue the WitchHunt against The Beloved Dear Leader.
It's all so unfair, dontchaknow....
Rebl2
(13,311 posts)wont believe it because they are that damaged.
tirebiter
(2,520 posts)Trump in one form or another will be indicted.
colorado_ufo
(5,717 posts)It's the equivalent of a mom-and-pop store on steroids. This is how the mob operates, by employing family only.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Actually, it's numerous corporations.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Private conglomerate with LLCs many of which are set up in Delaware where you don't have to disclose financial info.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)"LLC" stands for "limited liability corporation."
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But you are right that LLC s are limited liability company - I was typing too fast.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)One, Trump Organization, Inc., is a traditional corporation. The other, Trump Organization, LLC, is a limited liability company that may or may not be treated as a corporation depending on numerous factors.
It will be interesting to see if today's indictment is against one or the other or both of these entities.
Mr.Bill
(24,104 posts)it's against whoever writes the paychecks.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The Trump Corporation and the Trump payroll corporation are the defendants, along with Weisselberg.
From the indictment:.
...
Among other things, the Trump Corporation serves as the employer of a group of senior managers of the Trump organization, including Alan Weisselberg.
...
Trump Payroll Corporation is a Trump organization entity with its principal place of business in Trump Tower. Trump Payroll Corporation is run by Trump Corporation employees and functions primarily to process payroll for Trump Organization staff, including Weisselberg and others employed by the Trump corporation
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/read-trump-org-weisselberg-indicted-over-alleged-15-year-long-fraud-scheme
Mr.Bill
(24,104 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)a corporate lawyer and didn't know what LLC stood for. But, no hard feelings...we all screw up once in a while carry on!
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)suit are chicken feed compared to all the other entities. But they are related to payroll... Expenses when paid out of one and source of funds when govt paid the other. There are literally hundreds of LLCs and partnerships. It's all fascinating if you're a numbers nerd. But, of course, without tax returns, lots of blanks.
Ilsa
(61,675 posts)I don't think trump will drop dead before the worst hits him, including Malignia divorcing him to preserve her nest egg.
ShazzieB
(15,958 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 1, 2021, 08:14 PM - Edit history (2)
*choke splutter*
Of all the words I would NEVER have expected anyone to apply to her, that takes the cake!
Vibrant means "energetic, exciting, and full of enthusiasm." She has all the energy, excitement, and enthusiasm of a bad cold.
Just more evidence that MAGAts really do live in an alternate universe!
momta
(4,076 posts)With enough makeup and the right light she can look kind of pretty on the outside, but inside she's a full diaper.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Especially for all of us. ALL of us.
Delmette2.0
(4,143 posts)Her friend has already told stories and those can't be the whole story.
Ilsa
(61,675 posts)family wearing orange?
wnylib
(21,146 posts)Even if she left him now, there wouldn't be much for her and her Trump hatchling.
brer cat
(24,402 posts)K&R
gab13by13
(20,867 posts)When Cy Vance brought Pomerantz on the team I smiled a little. The main reason why it is critical to go after the organization first is because they are also going after Weisselberg first, and IMO it is crucial to get him to flip, once he does, MF45 is toast.
Yes MF45 ran his organization like a mom and pop pizza parlor but MF45 is not stupid, many of his projects were in his kids' names giving him protection. If Weisselberg's attorney was provided by MF45 then Weisselberg is in a world of hurt because that attorney will advice Weisselberg to do whatever is in MF45's best interests.
MF45 is a mob boss, he is not stupid, he insulated himself from guilt, with that said, if he loses his consigliere, he is done.
NJCher
(35,434 posts)It doesn't take intelligence to do that (projects were in his kids' names giving him protection).
If he's so smart he wouldn't be in the position he's in.
colorado_ufo
(5,717 posts)Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)Ivanka I doubt will go under the bus and somehow pinning something on her, would in my opinion just about break him.
Dan
(3,524 posts)Will claim spousal immunity from testifying against daddy.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)I dont think you are being mean at all. If the shoe fits ..
ShazzieB
(15,958 posts)But I really can't imagine a judge going along with it.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Looking at his financial disclosures and it only shows the percentage HE is in for for each of the hundreds of entities.
Need another data source?
MiHale
(9,593 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,440 posts)take that out and you kill much of Trump's finances and protections.
I'm impatient like a lot of you guys, but the Yoda quote is applicable.
Patience.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)c-rational
(2,581 posts)tRump Org. is going to be shredded by the time this is over. No bank is going to lend it money, existing loans will be called, assets will have to be sold at fire prices....I think eventually, Donny will be forced (before he goes to prison...) to live in one of Jared's tenements, with PEONS, and that will break him. The stress of all the prosecutions and the threat of prison will crush him physically, mentally, and emotionally--I foresee him being a shell in a cell, and that is profoundly gratifying!
wnylib
(21,146 posts)The Russian mob does. Will be interesting to see how that works out. They can find other money launderers, but what about the money he has received from them? Did they ecpect it back or was it just a political and business investment that they take a loss on?
Will they be providing him with "business" advice on handling his mess? Legal advice? Money for lawyers? Or drop him? "Donald who?"
Johnny2X2X
(18,745 posts)I still think it's more likely that he is never charged in relation to this. They're going to stall this for years.
And Trump will never do a day in jail, of that I am sure of.
romana
(765 posts)CNN is all about how weaksauce all this is. The media seems determined to spin this as a win for Trump.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)why they were letting his business evade accountability.
Same old same old ...
dawg day
(7,947 posts)It could be worse for him, of course... but that might be coming. Trump org's crimes have always been dealt with civilly or administratively before. This is new.... they are indicted.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I really doubt Trump woke up this morning thinking "Oh, thank God they're only going after my company! This is working out great for me!"
dawg day
(7,947 posts)Over and over, he kept saying, "it needs to be painted. We need to paint it. It's starting to rust." He was completely losing it. He's spooked.
calimary
(80,700 posts)I dont watch Pox.
I WONT watch Pox.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)He blames the rusting on Biden, not of course on himself spending $10B on a wall that apparently rusts in a few months.
Painting the wall, he kept saying, is the important thing.
He's really losing it.
Mopar151
(9,965 posts)Oxides from a fairly tight coating, if kept dry.
calimary
(80,700 posts)Just paint over it and nobody will know
sarchasm
(1,009 posts)...it's time to stock up on
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)sarchasm
(1,009 posts)R.I.C.O.
kentuck
(110,950 posts)Right on!
TheRickles
(2,000 posts)And it doesn't take much to do that, does it?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Buns_of_Fire
(17,121 posts)Oh, and beer.
Thank you for this post counseling patience. As I think the Bible says somewhere, "everybody but trump shall inherit the earth."
calimary
(80,700 posts)BillyBobBrilliant
(805 posts)That the lenders that hold notes on the 'company' will want to call in their notes before defaulting, and going forward no one will want to lend a feloneous company a dime.
johnthewoodworker
(694 posts)Otherwise this is just more legal bravado with no result.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)is the predicate necessary for anyone to go to jail. Without it, The result you're seeking is impossible.
So while you may dismiss this as mere "legal bravado, I call it "getting the job done."
Blanks
(4,835 posts)If the federal government were to go directly for Trump himself, the republicans would forever go directly after every Democratic Party president as soon as they leave office (they probably will anyway) but the Manhattan DAs office investigating Trump for crimes at the lowest level of the government and turning it over to the state for state crimes and finding guilt and then the federal government
Investigating federal crimes after the Trump org has already been found guilty of fraud and tax evasion at the city, county and state level looks like the next obvious step.
Its important that it not look like a witch hunt by his political opponent. When the investigation occurs at the county level, its clearly arms length from the current administration.
speak easy
(9,101 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)You are so right ...
TheRickles
(2,000 posts)But now Jordan is closing fast because of the press he's getting from the Clooney documentary. Coming down the home stretch, it looks like Trump is surging to the front again. Can he hold onto his lead as they near the finish?!?!
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)twodogsbarking
(9,308 posts)is great.
GrapesOfWrath
(524 posts)My new favorite name for TFG, 😂
wnylib
(21,146 posts)What we call yams are actually sweet potatoes. Yams are yellow. Sweet potatoes are orange.
Diamond_Dog
(31,669 posts)and political persecution rhetoric now and this will elevate his status to martyr in the eyes of his supporters.
I was astonished that when the fact came out about how little in taxes he paid, it didnt seem to hurt his image at all.
So Im really, really, hopeful well hear some good hard irrefutable evidence coming out of this prosecution. Thank you Starfish.... Im more encouraged now.
wnylib
(21,146 posts)will eventually reach. Will his Russian friends feel threatened? Send him a cup of tea? Will Donnie fall out of a window? Maybe a double win for the Russians. Get rid of their pumpkin faced launderer and push the rumor that he was murdered by his American political opponents.
Justice matters.
(6,874 posts)Until they rot in jail or sing kumbaya.
Tax dollars he never paid pay for that.
Imagine that.
wnylib
(21,146 posts)lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Uh-oh!
llashram
(6,265 posts)bdamomma
(63,658 posts)gives us all some hope that this POS will be going down, cut the head off the serpent I like to say.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)bdamomma
(63,658 posts)a person can think positive can't she?
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Thank you! I hope it's a good day for you too!
True Blue American
(17,972 posts)My eye specialist did a happy dance when she checked the results of my laser eye Happy, happy dance surgery.
So now I am doing my happy dance once again!
McCarthy threaten to remove committees of anyone who joined the 1/6 Insurrection. Pelosi just named Liz Chaney!
Tommy Carcetti
(43,085 posts)And that could potentially create further legal problems in and of itself.
brush
(53,475 posts)to patronize, do business with or lend money to an indicted organization?
Tiger8
(432 posts)TFG corporate wing is a house of cards.
Just the fines, restitution & interest charges for significant tax fraud conducted over several decades should blast them into oblivion.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)and set up legal defense funds for his "persecution".
ProfessorGAC
(64,425 posts)He IS the company.
That corporate veil is cellophane with holes in it.
Old Okie
(136 posts)Trump Corp is a very small mob based business, just Trump, his kids, and a few worker bees. They are going after the weakest links which I hope pays off but the code of silence is strong and the consequences for informing are high so we will have to wait and see.
colorado_ufo
(5,717 posts)wnylib
(21,146 posts)Will Puti help him or toss him out of a window as a liability?
Dan
(3,524 posts)I dont see Donnie filling that role.
wnylib
(21,146 posts)who can fill that role to protect their own interests and investments.
world wide wally
(21,719 posts)He won't have a jury of Republican Senators judging him.
Goonch
(3,551 posts)calimary
(80,700 posts)ProudMNDemocrat
(16,485 posts)For if the Trump Organization goes down. Trump goes down with it.
PortTack
(32,606 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,162 posts)My guess is about as well as all the breathless predictions about what Mueller was going to do to Trump. I get a Lucy with the football vibe.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,162 posts)Thats not saying much given that you made the prediction after he was indicted. Not exactly a high bar.
There were very few of the predictions you mentioned, anyway. The overwhelming majority were optimistic, perhaps unrealistically so.
IronLionZion
(45,261 posts)it's good!
bluestarone
(16,722 posts)TY!!
BobTheSubgenius
(11,535 posts)This implies that investigators and prosecutors have not been in close or prolonged contact with him up to now. Hopefully, they will now be putting the screws to him in an attempt to get him to flip. At the age of 73, how much time is he going to be willing to do to protect Il Douche?
AW is estimated to have a personal net worth of 10 figures - it's not like he needs the job, or a pension.
Warpy
(110,913 posts)Unlike most here, I don't want him in prison. He'd be a god inside the prison and a martyr outside it.
Nope, I want him isolated and poor. I can't think of worse punishments for that man.
LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)The trump organization lenders may soon take action. Every corporate loan agreement contains a representation that the borrower is in compliance with the law and in some cases this representation may be qualified by material adverse effect language to the effect that there is a breach of this representation only if the breach of the law has a material adverse effect ("MAE" on the borrower and its business. Each loan agreement also contains a covenant that the borrower is complying with the law and this covenant may be subject to MAE language. In addition the borrower normally has to notify the lenders if there is a material adverse change in the business or prospect of the Borrower.
For term loan agreements, the borrower has to submit regular financial statements and a certificate signed by a senior employee of the borrower that all representations and warranties made in credit agreement are true and correct and that the borrower has complied with covenants. If the lender is a federally insured institution, there are criminal penalties for false certifications to an insure financial institution. For revolving loans, the borrower has to submit a certificate for each draw on the loan containing the above certifications. The Manhattan DA may not enforce this requirement but the SDNY could bring suit if they want against anyone who signed a certification to a federally insured lender. The trump CFO needs to assume that if the trump organization is convicted, then the SDNY could also bring charges against the CFO for false statements made in loan certifications.
The trump organization lenders have the right to cut off future draws under any revolver and may call the term loans. Most agreements provide that a breach of covenant such as compliance with laws or lack of a material adverse change are defaults allowing the lender to call the loans. There may be a cure period for covenant breaches but this is the type of breach that cannot be cured. Weak borrowers are sometimes have to agree to an insecurity clause which allows the lender to call the loan if the lender deems itself insecure.
The counsel of the trump organization lenders will be reading today's indictment and they may either cut off loans under any revolver or call a term loan.
This will be fun to watch
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)My son teases me about loan agreements that are less than 200 pages.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Are you old enough to know what redlining a document actually means? Yikes!
God bless you for sticking with it. I couldn't do it...
LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)I also practiced when 4 minutes a page fax machines were considered state of the art. We were happy to get a machine that did one page a minute. Do you remember floppy disks for word processing?
Two of my kids are lawyers and they tease me that I took the bar exam on stone tablets. I did use blue books and had to try to write neatly. Before the internet, you got post cards on your bar results unless you have a friend clerking on the state supreme court. I took the Feb. bar and so my friends had not started yet. My first firm had a former president of the state bar as a partner. I got word that results were out and ran to the apartment to get results. There was a paper memo out to everyone before I got back to the office on the bar results announcing that I was the high grade for my law school and one point off the state high grade. Past bar presidents got the result faster than I could.
I love computer redlining and being able to send documents by email.
I like to negotiate and have worked on some fun deals over the years
ZonkerHarris
(24,156 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)Dan
(3,524 posts)mcar
(42,210 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)TFG has a ton of debt that needs to be refinance and this indictment will make the refinancing of that debt more difficult https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-01/trump-organization-charges-magnify-risks-of-debt-refinancing
Commercial loan covenants dont typically mention criminal charges in part because theyre such a rarity for businesses, but also because charges are just that -- charges, not convictions, according to professor Adam Levitin at Georgetown University, who specializes in bankruptcy and commercial law.
A spokesman for Deutsche Bank AG, a favored lender for the Trump Organization, declined to comment on how the charges may impact the loans they have coming due.
Even if the loan documents dont speak directly to criminal charges, sophisticated lenders -- and their lawyers -- can find a way to push the issue. Federal courts are no stranger to lengthy, expensive fights over what gives rise to defaults under commercial lending agreements.
Regardless of the specific provisions in loan documents, when a lender wants to cut ties with a corporation thats in trouble -- particularly in trouble with the law -- the lender will often find a way to call a default and get out of dodge, said David Prager, a restructuring and financial adviser at Kroll, who wasnt speaking about the Trump situation specifically.
It may also be harder to find banks willing to refinance the debt down the road -- most banks would balk at extending a loan to a company subject to a criminal indictment.
This will be fun to watch
C Moon
(12,188 posts)RVN VET71
(2,686 posts)But the process has been slow, painstakingly slow. The prosecution hired forensic accounting experts to sift through what amounted to more than a million pages of documents to make sure they showed criminality. If they did their job, Weisselberg is going to jail for a long time.
But the beauty of it is the old crook can cut a break if he spills on Loser-45 and the members of his crime family (Ivanka the Luscious, Dope Fiend Donnie, Eric the Unloved, and, of course, Jared the Fiend.)
Not time for popcorn yet, but soon. Im interested in seeing whether the old fool will snitch on Flubbo-45 or just his kids.
Im reminded of Michael Cohens claim that the Fat Man always kept his hands clean even while indicating" orders to his underlings to do crimes for him. Never a specific I want you to do such and such. Always more like Now this, of course, would be profitable if only somebody -- wink, wink towards his children -- would do such and such, but of course it would be -- wink, wink -- wrong to do so."
Well see very soon whether the ex-President successfully cushioned himself from indictment, trial, and imprisonment.
flying_wahini
(6,529 posts)And you are correct; this is going to be good!
SmartVoter22
(639 posts)and sees that everything was forzen is something I'll be happy to see.
And I am sure even Trump's loyalist supporters are pissed he's a tax cheat.
Being a tax cheat in America, is one of the worst offences which our society despises.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Terrible what happened from then to now.
But, as you say...!
marble falls
(56,359 posts)... by October. There is a large group of stooges who are getting the message:
1. 45 does not love you. He will personally put the one kid who supported him the whole time under the bus.
2. 45 did nothing for you. He does nothing for you. He will do nothing for you.
3. It's time to stop voting against your own interests.
Hamlette
(15,394 posts)The sheer joy of getting him under oath and required by law to answer questions? Heaven to me.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Hamlette
(15,394 posts)as a former trial attorney, I've spent many hours questioning him in my head. "Isn't it true . . . "
LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)Kurt does not see how the Trump Org survives this without some sort of corrupt deal overseas. I tend to agree
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Just look at how complex and difficult to unravel this Byzantine scheme called the Trump Organization. It's a mess. Layer upon layer of subterfuge, obfuscation, entangled with fraud, grift and greed. It's taken years for the best law enforcement and forensic investigators to get just a little something to go on and even now, they're nowhere near the bottom.
I think what took so long is that, until Trump became president, he was seen as small potatoes - a petty conman who, for the most part, hurt only other greedy people and cons. They just didn't have the time or resources to devote to dealing with him.
LetMyPeopleVote
(144,005 posts)In the workpapers were spreadsheets showing how much as paid to Allen outside his normal compensation and how this was deducted from his taxable compensation. Accountants work papers are not subject to the attorney client privilege and can be very helpful
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)just the FGs tax returns?
And admit out of the loop... Why are they saying this will do it ALL in? Jeez, only a million in income in question. Taxes on that could be paid out of any entitie's petty cash. Again, been out of loop. Sure this question had been asked and answered.
PatrickforB
(14,516 posts)for treason, massive corruption while in office, criminal activities, racketeering, and a host of other crimes, I never really felt like that would happen. Those who call the shots in this country wouldn't allow it because too many of them feel that while Trump definitely deserves it, to try and convict him as he deserves would set too dangerous a precedent.
Or something like that.
But going after his organization and draining its coffers, causing loans to be called in and so on - well, that won't quite be as satisfying as watching Trump perp-walked into a federal prison in an orange jumpsuit, it will be nearly as satisfying to see Trump and his disgusting children broke and bankrupt.
Can you imagine Ivanka, Eric and Don Jr. without the giant safety net of family wealth trying to make it like the rest of us? We would be looking at drug addiction, petty crime and all the rest of the horrible spiral down to rock bottom.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Blue Owl
(49,934 posts)[img][/img]
gordianot
(15,226 posts)Laws, social norms, empathy mean nothing to him.