Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:26 PM Jan 2012

The Abyss will also Gaze into Thee

During the W Bush winter of discontent a lot of mainstream Democrats found themselves drifting into a radicalized, almost anarchist mind-set. During the Obama era made glorious summer by the son (sun… get it? Shakespeare cracked himself up) of Hawaii a lot of mainstream Democrats seem to be less questioning of government power on an institutional level.

If Romney wins will people suddenly go back to thinking the government is more scary than helpful?

And if so, are there any underlying principles here, or just an ad hoc basket of issues with a label stuck on?

Libertarian thought is not a crackpot party that pulls .03% every four years. Libertarian thought is a predisposition to human liberty that informs many political philosophies, including Liberalism.

In it’s most clownishly extremist forms libertarian thought can be Ayn Rand or Ron Paul or the American Libertarian Party.

Libertarianism (big L) is unworkable as government. Period. It cannot work. There is no practical defense for it.

But there is nothing wicked in seeking the most libertarian (small L) government that does work while preserving the peace and serving the public welfare. That is how many Liberals describe their political philosophy. It is an uncontroversial center-left view of the state. It's all in how one defines the genral welfare of the people.

(Personally, I am a zealous civil-libertarian and vanilla euro-mixed-economy-democratic-socialist type. The are not incompatible. I am a 1960s-style Liberal. The ACLU is the good guys. The Man is usually something to be skeptical of.)

To dwell on the extreme is closely related to someone calling mandatory automobile safety inspections “Stalinist.” (I have no doubt that some members of the American libertarian party have done just that.)

Stalin favored government involvement in the economy. If right wingers swarmed on you for holding some ideas Stalin also held (you hold plenty of them. Everyone does) would that strike you as a reasonable mode of discussion?

Probably not. You probably do not think Stalin is a reasonable proxy for the idea that government has a role to play in the economy, for instance.

Well, I do not think Ron fucking Paul is a reasonable proxy for the idea that the Surveillance State is out of control. It is an important idea that should be of keen interest to most liberals and progressives. I sure as hell was when Bush was President, wasn’t it?

I will grant that the Paulopalooza circus here is not entirely one sided. A lot of folks have fallen into the defending Paul rhetorical tar-pit while trying to stand for ideas. There is no reason to defend Paul or Paul’s ideas. They are not his ideas!

The good ideas arose independently in the minds of millions of people concerned with serious questions of how to maintain personal autonomy in a technological mega-state with a crypto-fascist Republican party seemingly calling the tune for both parties.

Defend them on their merits or attack them on their merits. They are ideas, not persons.

The meaning of the headline of this piece comes from the question of what it would mean to actually oppose libertarian thought. The diametrically opposing view is authoritarianism.

”He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.

3 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Abyss will also Gaze into Thee (Original Post) cthulu2016 Jan 2012 OP
Great Post, right down to my favorite Nietzsche quote! FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #1
thanks cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #2
I'm not against government, I'm against BAD government. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #3

FarLeftFist

(6,161 posts)
1. Great Post, right down to my favorite Nietzsche quote!
Wed Jan 11, 2012, 09:39 PM
Jan 2012
Defend them on their merits or attack them on their merits. They are ideas, not persons. Exactly right.

Also, Libertarians arrive at the un-utopia of a civilized anarchy. The kind of libertarianism that Ron Paul advocates, the liberty to increase the foundations of human inequality, breaks the balance of liberty and equality that has made liberal democracy viable. This kind of libertarianism breaks the foundations of liberal democracy itself.
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The Abyss will also Gaze ...