Ashli Babbitt was in the act of trying to break into the Speaker's lobby when she was shot

[Botany]

Last edited Wed Aug 4, 2021, 12:49 PM - Edit history (2)

That 1/6/21 crowd of Trump terrorists were looking for Nancy Pelosi and Mike Pence
so they could kill them in order to "stop the steal" and they really believed that half
baked Trump/Fox News lie too. She is no hero.

[NurseJackie]

1. Put that clip of her being shot on an endless loop as a warning to others.

[SKKY]

2. Concur. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[BeyondGeography]

3. And that area immediately ceased to be a problem

Roll the tape. That stairwell was dangerously out of control until it wasn’t. The shooting was not only justifiable it was necessary.

[Escurumbele]

15. I 1/2 agree with your statement, and I will explain why.

My thought has always been that FBI, CIA, Intelligence Officers, Police, Military, etc., or anyone whose job requires a gun should be well trained to not only handle the gun responsibly, but to be a good shooter as well, to be an expert at aiming and hitting the intended target.

My first reaction is that if these people are well trained, why not shoot to miss? I bet that if he had done that the same end result of dissipating the crowd would have been accomplished, with just a warning shot. If the warning shot had not accomplished its intended goal, then you have run out of options, as time is of the essence, and you have to shoot to injure, hopefully not kill, although in that instance it is hard to aim, I understand that, and maybe the shooter was trying to just injure.

Was the shot justifiable? Yes, you are correct. Could the first shot had been a warning? Definitely.

And yes, she was not a hero, she was a misguided person who unfortunately paid a high price.

[IowaGuy]

24. I am not a gun nut, I will not even own one, however I do take issue w/ the "warning shot" idea.

I was taught gun safety and how to handle a gun safely at an early age, starting at 6 was my first time firing a gun at a weapons range under a certified instructor along with my father at my side. I was taught, never, ever draw a weapon and point at another human unless it is necessary and you are willing to take their life and live w/ the consequences. The decision to take that life is made prior to drawing the weapon...when you pull the trigger, you shoot to kill. A gun is a tool for killing, you don't go hunting w/ a rifle just to make loud noises and get deer to run around. You don't point a gun at another human just to "scare" them, You do it to kill them, so you better be sure about what you are doing when you pull it. I am satisfied the shooter knew what he was doing and was justified. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same. The first thing you are taught, is that when drawing down on a target is situational awareness, what is downrange from the target? What are potential ricochet issues? You have to train yourself to assess these conditions in an instant. They were in a crowded situation with hard surfaces surrounding them. A warning shot, which most law officers are trained not to do, because of ricochet issues... could have gone anywhere, including into other security personnel that were in the hallway. Shooting center mass at the initial threat was the safest and most prudent thing to do, for everybody.

[localroger]

30. If you are well trained, there are only two types of shots you will attempt

Most of the time you will be taught to fire at the target's center of mass, both to maximize the chance of hitting your target and to minimize the chance of hitting something else. Sometimes you might choose to take a head shot, only because the greater chance of an instant kill outweighs the risk of missing.

You will be not be taught to take "less lethal" shots at the limbs or to disable instead of killing. You will be taught to never fire a "warning" shot. In both of those cases you have a much greater chance of the bullet hitting something other than your target, as well as of your target being stopped -- and if you're firing a gun, you better have already decided that stopping your target is a priority worth the very significant risk of killing them. Otherwise you do not unholster the gun.

Babbitt was in the act of breaking in to an office at the head of a crowd which had been chanting death threats to the likely occupant of that office for some time. In effect it was a warning -- to the rest of the crowd, and it worked. Nobody else got hurt and the office was not breached. The shot accomplished exactly what was intended and what was necessary under the circumstances.

[IowaGuy]

58. Well said!! (nt)

[James48]

36. How do you know

That there was only one shot? That the agent didn’t first fire a warning shot?

We don’t know.

I’m fine with the Agent defending The Speaker and killing the intruding seditionist.

[localroger]

41. There is video

Whoever fired waited until Babbitt leaped at the window, and fired one shot which stopped her as intended. If that shot had not stopped her more shots would have been likely.

[secondwind]

44. The policeman was way overwhelmed and almost

overpowered. I believe he had no other choice.

[AnrothElf]

45. There is no such thing as a "warning shot"

I despise guns and believe the 2nd amendment should be repealed.

But there is no such thing as a warning shot. Guns are killing machines. They have ONE function.

[Straw Man]

72. Of course there are warning shots; a shot into the ground cannot possibly be lethal.

But as far as law enforcement training and policies, they went out with Smith & Wesson revolvers, white socks, and black oxfords.

There is a misconception that the training is "shoot to kill." The training is to shoot to stop the threat. Deadly force is merited when life and limb are at risk, as they were here, but if the assailant runs away at the sight of the gun, or falls to the ground wounded and inert, then the goal has been achieved. Had Ashli Babbitt been wounded but not killed, the same result would have been achieved: the attack would have been stopped.

In this case, she died of her wounds. But the officer who fired the shot didn't think "I want that women dead." He/she thought "I want that woman to stop coming through that window." And in that, he/she was successful. The risk of killing Babbitt was merited by the circumstances and by the behavior of the mob.

This notion of "shooting to injure" grossly underestimates the difficulty of shooting a handgun accurately in chaotic and stressful situations. The reason officers are trained to shoot center-mass is to maximize the odds of hitting the intended target and nothing else.

[lagomorph777]

48. Good training explicitly prohibits "shooting to miss."

That would have been as inappropriate and dangerous in this situation, as in any other. Likely would have told the mob that the cops were weak.

[bottomofthehill]

62. Marble floors and stone walls make a warning shot irresponsible

You would never know where the round would stop.

[GulfCoast66]

79. Life is not like the movies. Warning shots are a bad idea in a building.

That bullet is going to go somewhere and likely hit someone.

It you face a threat that is severe enough to fire a gun then you aim it at the threat.

Shoot at the ceiling it hits someone on the floor above you. At the stone floor or walls the bullet will ricochet all over the place and might hit you.

[kentuck]

4. If Ashli Babbitt had made it thru the window, how many would have followed her?

How would they have treated the people inside, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi?

[Walleye]

6. They would have torn her to pieces, not a doubt in my mind

[kentuck]

9. I'm afraid you are right.

It is very disturbing.

[usaf-vet]

14. Her position "Speaker of the House" is third in the line of succession. If VP had been caught.....

.... and killed the Speaker would be next in line.

Hence she had a Secret Service detail guarding her.

News reports I have read said Ashii Babbitt was shot by the Secret Service.

The United States presidential line of succession is the order in which officials of the United States federal government assume the powers and duties of the office of president of the United States if the incumbent president becomes incapacitated, dies, resigns, or is removed from office. The order of succession specifies that the office passes to the vice president; if the vice presidency is simultaneously vacant, or if the vice president is also incapacitated, the powers and duties of the presidency pass to the speaker of the House of Representatives, president pro tempore of the Senate, and then Cabinet secretaries, depending on eligibility.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession#Presidential_succession_beyond_the_vice_president

[vanlassie]

25. So the system worked. At least in that incident.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

31. Perhaps I missed it but is there direct evidence

That they planned to kill pelosi? I'm not saying that they probably weren't just asking

[localroger]

35. Members of the mob were shouting death threats

...to Pence, Pelosi, the Squad, and others. LE can't just act on the hope that you are just there for the barbecue.

[GoCubsGo]

43. Must've been a spur-of the-moment thing...

Or, maybe they were looking for some other Nancy?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

57. Yes they were looking for her. I'm wondering if there's direct evidence

That they were going to kill her. Not doubting that they would whatsoever.

[MustLoveBeagles]

54. Look at the clip post if you haven't already

If the mob had breached the House Chamber there's not a doubt in my mind they would've killed Speaker Pelosi or any other politician they could get their hands on.

[MustLoveBeagles]

55. Look at the clip in post 43 if you haven't already

If the mob had breached the House Chamber there's not a doubt in my mind they would've killed Speaker Pelosi or any other politician they could get their hands on.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

59. Post 43 not a clip?

[bottomofthehill]

65. Below are a couple nice ladies that were announcing they were there to put a bullet in her head.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1256275

[bottomofthehill]

66. Their Quote in bold

Two women were arrested in connection to the U.S. Capitol riot where one of them posted a video on social media saying they were looking for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi "to shoot her in the friggin’ brain but we didn’t find her,” according to federal prosecutors.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

69. Yet they haven't been charged with attempted murder.

All I am trying to seek out is if there was indeed a universal cry (with hard evidence) to murder Nancy? Everyone keeps saying that. Maybe FBI still working on it.

[bottomofthehill]

70. You can only take them at their word

[Kingofalldems]

75. Good grief.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

78. ???

[Kingofalldems]

81. Just awful.

Someone breaking into your home with a weapon is there to harm you.

Don't know how that isn't obvious or why you keep asking the same question.

[Kingofalldems]

82. Proof enough for you?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215694919

[Laura PourMeADrink]

84. Will ignore your rudeness

If you read thread, you'd understand what I was asking.

[localroger]

32. That she was shot by SS and not CPD is very likely

But also not a thing anybody is likely to publicly acknowledge if it is true.

[Another Jackalope]

38. A couple of talking heads have characterized the insurrection as

an attempted assassination of the line of succession. I see that as a realistic assessment.

[localroger]

42. And a plan stupid enough to be worthy of TFG himself

Did none of these people ever see Designated Survivor? There is always a next person in the line, and none of them are TFG.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

74. But if the certification hadn't happened, did FG himself

think he wouldn't have been president? Or did he have to have someone who is sympathetic to him be at the top of the line? Someone in charge of the government who could say yes, FG is still president? If they could get rid of pence and Pelosi it would be a pompeo?? Hey, just noticed three P's

[bottomofthehill]

51. Not quite right.

The Speaker is protected by USCP. The line of succession was never in play as the President was never in any danger as he was ordering the attack. Think of Watergate, when VP Agnew stepped down, Speaker Albert did not become the VP. President Nixon nominated Minority Leader Ford, and the Senate confirmed him, then, when Nixon stepped down, Ford became President, again, when President Ford became President, the Speaker did not become the VP, Nelson Rockefeller was nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

[Another Jackalope]

60. I don't think of them as a line of "successors" to Trump

But as the pool of Constitutionally legitimized "replacements". If they were all murdered, then when TFG crowned himself El Jefe, there would be no clear person/position for the opposition to coalesce around. At the very least a long period of confusion would ensue, which would give TFG time to operationalize his dictatorship.

If he had the brains God gave a goose, of course.

[bottomofthehill]

61. That was my long winded and somewhat arrogant way of saying

The Secret Service did not pick up the Speaker that day.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

76. So on 1-6 FG was still technically president.

Was to get the line of succession down (literally eliminate) to the highest level where someone would agree that he should not be replaced on the 20th? He had hopes that Pence would. He knew Nancy wouldn't. Probably didn't think much past those two but pompeo would have been next. See your point. Pompeo would not have been elevated to vice president.

[bottomofthehill]

83. There are a lot of what if's swirling around 1/6

There are few chances that the Secretary of State is ever in play as the election of the Speaker is (or I should say can be) a simple and quick process, additionally, the President of the Senate is the most Senior Member of the Majority Party so unless the entire majority party is wiped out, there is a pro temp, Aside from stalling the vote count and trying to kick the entire process to “his court” I don’t know what the actual plan was. All I know was it was an insane day.

[barbtries]

26. 100% correct. nt

[CrispyQ]

5. They all saw the officer's gun before she tried to catapult through the door.

You can even hear them say, "Gun!" She knew the officer was there with his weapon out & aimed at the insurrectionists.

The NYT has an excellent compilation of all the video they could find from that day. They include maps & floor plans of the Capitol grounds & building. I put a brief synopsis of the video here, including when Babbitt was shot.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215668771

Here's a link to the actual video. No paywall for this NTY INSURRECTION VIDEO REPORT. This video should be shown on every news channel during prime time, IMO.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000007606996/capitol-riot-trump-supporters.html

[niyad]

7. She was an insurrectionist, a traitor. My she rot.

[Cracklin Charlie]

8. They all came to the Capitol looking for Pelosi.

Lots of the intruders asked for her by name.

She was a prime target that day.

[Botany]

10. And wasn't Lauren Boebert or M.T. Greene giving out Nancy Pelosi's location during the riot?

n/t

[Takket]

12. boebert was... a fact i've heard of no investigations following up on.

but DOJ may be looking at things we simply have no knowledge of.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

34. But they can just explain that away right. We were going there to protest

? Or rather she was telling them where to go because they protest was planned in her office. Just playing devil's advocate here. Like my other question is there a direct evidence that they had a plan to kill pelosi sorry if I missed it

[lagomorph777]

49. Public evidence is that they were there to assassinate Pelosi and Pence;

they were saying it out loud on video. They were breaking into her office. Boebert had told them where to find her. I don't know how much more it would take to make it clear to you.

If DOJ is actually doing real investigation, they will find documentation of more of the details. For now, though, if you're not convinced, I can't help you.

[Takket]

11. she went to DC to overthrow the government and install durmpf as emperor

she is a traitor and she died a traitor, there is no more disgraceful way to die in the eyes on one's country.

[XanaDUer2]

13. And she threw a bag thru before she climbed in

could have been anything

Shooting her shut down that corridor

[IronLionZion]

16. Republicans constantly fantasize about shooting intruders

they salivate at the idea of someone breaking into their home or workplace so they can murder legally.

[malaise]

17. You know it is much worse than that

They were planning to execute those in line of succession - the VP and the Speaker - it was a full blown coup

[malaise]

18. You know it is much worse than that

They were planning to execute those in line of succession - the VP and the Speaker - it was a full blown coup

[LetMyPeopleVote]

19. This idiot was a terrorist

[calimary]

20. And she's NO "martyr" either.

[The Unmitigated Gall]

21. She went through that window a traitor

With intent to do murder and mayhem. The traitors she was helping were howling for blood. Her death was justified. She earned it. A “good man with a gun” gave it to her.

[XanaDUer2]

23. I wonder if she volunteered to go first

notice how everyone calmed down when shit got real.

[localroger]

40. Having been in the military, she should have understood the possible consequences

What happened to her reminded a lot of the LARPers that there is no "start new game" prompt in this scenario, and without them as cover there weren't enough of more hardcore types like Babbitt to execute the plan.

[no_hypocrisy]

22. Babbitt was in the military. She assumed her attack

to be a kind of war and thereby assumed the risk of injury and/or death. She wasn’t “assassinated” according to her terms.

[Mr. Ected]

27. It is a testament to police restraint under calamitous conditions that Ashli Babbitt was the only

insurrectionist to take a bullet.

Perhaps if there had been more - lots more - we wouldn't be having to answer for their crimes right now. And they wouldn't be planning their next attack on democracy.

[bottomofthehill]

63. One round, no one emptied there weapon

There were no bystanders or officers shot by friendly fire. A life was taken, the officer who took the life will be forever changed as will the Babbitt family. All because of the lies of the Orange Turd and his death cult.

[kairos12]

28. As a vet I can say she betrayed her oath. She was a stochastic terrorist.

[Pepsidog]

29. She was an imminent threat to the lives of many innocent people and the use of deadly force to

to defend against deadly force was justified. By violently storming the Capitol they all assumed the risk of being killed regardless of how deluded their thoughts were. The traitors are lucky that a lot more of them weren’t killed by Capitol security forces who could have been justified in shooting many more.

[AverageOldGuy]

33. "Stand your ground"

So she was shot because the Capitol Police officer was doing what Republicans demand -- STAND YOUR GROUND, DEFEND YOUR TERRITORY.

[ShazamIam]

37. That was, "The Speaker's Lobby," at the entrance to the House Chamber, here is an article with

diagrams. The mob had broken the window and were ready to invade the chamber itselt.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/video-shows-fatal-shooting-of-ashli-babbitt-in-the-capitol/ar-BB1cAzWs

[multigraincracker]

39. As TFG said "when the looting starts the bullets start".

A lot of things were stolen that day including Pelosi's Lectern.

[MineralMan]

46. Yes. I've seen the video.

In my opinion, there were other situations where lives were threatened and should have justified lethal force being used. Several police officers were facing life-threatening situations, too.

Frankly, a few dead insurrectionists would have been useful "pour encourager les autres" during that violent craziness. As occurred when Ashli Babbit was shot, the rest nearby would have found somewhere else to be and something else to do had someone shot someone who was threatening the life of someone protecting the Capitol.

That mob was a present lethal threat to every elected official in the Capitol building, and those defending them. Our police are very quick to end the lives of people of color on the least pretense. Some of that willingness to shoot should have been in place on January 6. Had a few shots been fired in a lethal way, the insurrection would have ended far more quickly, I'm certain.

[lagomorph777]

50. Most definitely. They acted with great (and inappropriate) restraint.

Whether because of orders, or because of sympathy for the devils, will need to be further detailed.

But they could have shut things down faster with a few more bullets.

[MineralMan]

52. That's an unpopular viewpoint, I understand.

However, the circumstances were such that it would have made perfect sense, and the place would have cleared out quickly, I have no doubt. The Capitol Police were far outnumbered and the crowd of rioters was fired up. That crap needed to end right away.

[bottomofthehill]

64. Even well trained if you have a conscience it is not easy to take a life.

We see plenty of cowboys (bad cops) who run around playing the fool, just waiting for the chance to use their gun but most in Law Enforcement would be happy to never have to draw their weapon. That means they do not feel their life was in danger to the point that they need to use their weapon.

There is no question that the officer did what he had to do to protect the Members of Congress who were still in the House Chamber, the Members that were exiting the Chamber, the House Staff, and his fellow officers. That said, he took a life and has to live with that decision. Add to that that the former President, Tucker Carlson, Fox News, and Members of the House are making a martyr of her and putting the officers life in danger.

It is easy in theory to say shoot them all, but the reality is that it is not that easy

[gulliver]

68. Completely agree.

More lethal force would have taken the "fun" out of the situation for the insurrectionists. They might not have breeched the Capitol at all. We'll never know.

In a grotesque irony, the very fact that the Capitol Police showed restraint and didn't open fire on a bunch more of the insurrectionists undermines the perceived gravity of crime. Had ten of the insurrectionists been killed, Republicans wouldn't be whitewashing and lying about it. It would be too serious a matter. With only one Trump insurrectionist casualty, the craven Republicans can brazenly shrug it off and whitewash it. The lowest of the low, Trump himself, can turn that one casualty into a "named martyr," which of course he did.

[Texaswitchy]

47. She was helped into the window.

Her job was to attack the officer inside and the men would then knocked down the doors.

The chambers were just inside the door.

I think a lot of bullets would
have been flying then.

Secret Service and the Capital Police would have opened up.

That one shot saved a lot of lives.

[Tarc]

53. She had 30-40 secs to think about it, after

Maybe there was a reexamination, in that brief time, of the questionable life choices that led her to that moment.

[Texaswitchy]

56. Yes

Didn't think that she might get shot.

Maybe because she was a woman.

Should not have went thru the window.

[ansible]

67. It doesn't matter anymore, her death has hopelessly divided the country

Honestly the best thing to do would be to just keep quiet about it and not bring it up anymore, because doing so just turns her into an even bigger martyr.

[Skittles]

73. no, it showcases the sheer hypocrisy of "we back the blue" repukes

imagine if BLM had stormed the Capitol and instead of Ms. Babbit it was a black woman, how do you think repukes would react

they don't "back the blue", they support fascism

[Ohio Joe]

77. The lunatic fringe started trying to turn her into a martyr on 1/6...

Her body was not even cold when they were crying murder and they are not going to stop trying. Remaining silent is the wrong course of action. No... I disagree completely. Each and every time the lunatic fringe tries to make her action anything less than insurrection it should be confronted with the fact that she was in the front of an insurrectionist mob intent on overthrowing our democracy.

[GulfCoast66]

80. Had they opened fire the second they penetrated the building it would have ended.

If there is a next time that is what they will do.