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Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:19 PM

Afghanistan

Malcolm X used to teach that there is no shame in saying that you used to be a drunk. But there is shame in saying you continue to be a drunk. There's no shame in saying that you used to be a thug, but there is shame if you continue in your thug life-style. I'd hope that most people would tend to agree with Malcolm on that. Yet there seems to be both confusion and diagreement when it comes to the United States.

I fully agree with, and support, President Biden's decision to get us out of Afghanistan. More, I understand that there is no good way -- much less a perfect one -- to withdraw from that distant land. I do not like that people will suffer and die, no matter what route Joe Biden decided upon. But I trust that he, knowing far more significant details than any of us, will do his best to lessen that sad reality.

I do not necessarliy trust some others who were profitting off the war. That does not include the military itself, as any thinking person knows there was never a "military solution" to making Afghanistan a liberal democracy. But there was a potential military solution as far as the initial response -- going after the people responsible for 9/11. A combination of bombing Tora Bora while sending Special Forces to prevent Usama bin Laden from walking into Pakistan would have been good, at least compared to Bush & Cheney taking their attention off of that. Thanks, Donald Rumsfeld. Thanks, industrial complex.

The Bush-Cheney administration was intoxicated on power. They were drunken thugs. Twenty years ago, they behaved in a reckless manner that not only damaged Afghanistan and Iraq, it damaged this country. That shame belongs around their necks. But the United States should have ended this horror long ago. Presidents, the Senate, and the House should have recognized it as an infected wound that would not and could not heal so long as we were there.

This wound cannot heal so long as we limit our thinking to only viewing situations from a western point of view. While some of Afghanistan's people want to live like Americans, it is obvious that not all of the others share our values. In some cases, that creates problems for segments of the population, most obviously women and girls. That's terrible, but it is not the reason we invaded Afghanistan. But other than the US military being there another 79 years, that won't change this century.

I've seen some Good People saying Biden gave the Taliban "legitimacy." This is an example of not understanding the reality beyond from a USA egocentric level. No one can give you legitimacy, they can only try to take it away. No one can give you human rights -- you are born with them -- although they can certainly try to take them away. Watch Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," with Bush hosting the Taliban, and get back to me on how President Biden gave them legitimacy.

Likewise, we hear that the Afghanistan military didn't want to fight. Gosh, I hear an echo from comments on South Vietnam's army didn't care to fight. There is a lesson there that we should have learned decades ago. The Taliban, however, shows a legit willingness to fight, not unlike happened in Vietnam. Neither recognized the authority of the corrupt governments that we attempted to impose. In both wars, only our military industrial complex made out like bandits, off the fighting, killing, suffering and death of the men and women sent to fight a prolonged war.

It was Trump who began the process -- not that his word would be worth any more in an international agreement than his daily pathological lying. But I dare say that President Biden will take a sober approach to a tragic situation that we created 20 years ago.

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 45 replies Author Time Post
Reply Afghanistan (Original post)
H2O Man Aug 17 OP
XanaDUer2 Aug 17 #1
H2O Man Aug 17 #5
Saoirse9 Aug 17 #2
H2O Man Aug 17 #10
trof Aug 17 #24
H2O Man Aug 17 #25
trof Aug 17 #27
housecat Aug 18 #45
Budi Aug 17 #3
H2O Man Aug 17 #11
Uncle Joe Aug 17 #4
H2O Man Aug 17 #12
Caliman73 Aug 17 #6
H2O Man Aug 17 #14
JohnnyRingo Aug 17 #7
H2O Man Aug 17 #15
soldierant Aug 17 #8
H2O Man Aug 17 #17
soldierant Aug 17 #36
Jon King Aug 17 #9
H2O Man Aug 17 #28
malaise Aug 17 #13
H2O Man Aug 17 #30
housecat Aug 17 #16
H2O Man Aug 17 #31
housecat Aug 18 #43
Hekate Aug 17 #18
H2O Man Aug 17 #32
WVreaper Aug 17 #19
H2O Man Aug 17 #33
Kid Berwyn Aug 17 #20
H2O Man Aug 17 #34
c-rational Aug 17 #21
H2O Man Aug 17 #35
Evolve Dammit Aug 17 #22
H2O Man Aug 17 #37
2naSalit Aug 17 #23
H2O Man Aug 17 #38
2naSalit Aug 17 #41
H2O Man Aug 17 #42
trof Aug 17 #26
H2O Man Aug 17 #39
housecat Aug 18 #44
Mr. Evil Aug 17 #29
H2O Man Aug 17 #40

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:29 PM

1. Bob Menendez is slamming Biden now!

I'm so pissed!

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Response to XanaDUer2 (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:20 PM

5. Thank you!

I wonder if some Democrats had spoken against what Trump did, and don't want to be accused of just playing politics. But I don't have to wonder when republicans deliver shrill disagreement with President Biden, as they only play politics.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:33 PM

2. I have to admit the optics are bad

But I trust Biden over the former guy on any issue facing this country.

I trust him to have done any and everything he could to minimize the damage.

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Response to Saoirse9 (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:50 PM

10. It's tough to watch.

But it could be worse. The strange thing is that some interests would prefer it becomes worse. I support President Biden 100% on this.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:09 PM

24. "THE BUCK STOPS HERE" writ large.

'If not now, when?
If not me, who?"

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Response to trof (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:13 PM

25. Well said!

Ain't that the truth?

You nailed it perfectly in 14 words. Great respect.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:14 PM

27. merci

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Response to trof (Reply #24)

Wed Aug 18, 2021, 08:24 PM

45. Indeed.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:38 PM

3. K & R Thank You!

Biden will quietly rise above the noise & complete the task he set out to do.
He sees the end game whether we leave or stay.
His decision is the only right one & he will see it thru to the end & above the chatter.

Thank you President Biden



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Response to Budi (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:51 PM

11. Thanks!

I agree.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:46 PM

4. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread H2O Man.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #4)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:51 PM

12. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:22 PM

6. Good post, but I have some minor disagreement.

You certainly can boost the legitimacy of a group or rogue nation by opening official channels of communication with them. Just think about our own Civil War. The CSA was desperate to be recognized by France and/or England as a legitimate state. No country at the time did so, though they wanted to. If the South had won more telling battles that had made the North consider some sort of treaty, France and England would have jumped in to recognize the CSA and begin formal trade. As such, they did not and the South did not get the significant economic support it needed to sustain the fight.

Trump negotiating a peace settlement with the Taliban, gave them legitimacy just as George W Bush meeting with them in the 1990's when he was governor of Texas, to discuss oil and natural gas did. The man whom the Trump administration pressured the Afghan government to free will in all likelihood be recognized as the next leader of Afghanistan. In the geopolitical world, meeting with a group or government often confers upon them, a sense of legitimacy.

Biden never met with or dealt with the Taliban. Biden, like President Obama before him, had to manage a situation that his predecessor put him into. Remember when Bush set the timetable for the US pull out from Iraq? President Obama got tagged with having pulled out, but that agreement was made before President Obama took office. Likewise, any dealings with the Taliban, were done before President Biden was in the Oval office. Biden told the Afghans in April that we were leaving in September.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:03 PM

14. Absolutely.

In the example of music, The Beatles had Billy Preston acompany them on the London roof top for their final mini-concert. A lot of Beatles fans then took an interest in Preston's music, boosting his reputation. And nations can do something similar. However, Preston was already a legitimate musician.

The US did not invite the Taliban onto the world stage with our group. Trump had originally planned to have some of the Taliban come to our country to meet with him -- close to the 9/11 anniversary, at that -- but that concert was nixed. Still, others outside of the US knew very well about the Taliban. They have been known in the Middle East, Asia, Russia, and Africa. They were, after all, the government in Afghanistan before 9/11. They offered to surrender to the US, and turn bin Laden over to a third party for trial. But, for a variety of reasons -- none in our national interests -- Vheney and Rumsfeld were not interested in that. They had other plans.

My understanding is that President Obama did try to end the war, but was convinced by other sources that he couldn't. VP Biden still favored getting out. He was right then, and he is right now.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:27 PM

7. So well written

Too often people post a link, a tweet, or a video without explanation and collect 200 likes and 86 comments.

It's good to see someone put forth the effort to express a point, ...And well done I might add.
K&R x 100

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Response to JohnnyRingo (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:06 PM

15. Thanks!

I appreciate that, JohnnyRingo! I remember when DU:GD was primarily discussions about things people here wrote and posted. I find that more meaningful, but respect that others have different forms of communication. Still, I hoped people might read this, and think about it on a rational, non-emotional way.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:28 PM

8. Anyone who had even the most rudimentary knowledge

of warfare and/or Afghanistan's history could have predicted exactly what would happen with us withdrawing - and many did.

And that's why we could not get out intil someone with guts/balls/a spine - take your pick, or all three - was in charge.

But we never should have been there in the first place. Even having gone in, we should have left after not more than 15 months. We didn't do that. So this was inevitable.

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Response to soldierant (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:13 PM

17. Thank you!

I think back to 2004 ..... one of my friends was a disabled Vietnam veteran, who opposed that war once he learned what was going on. He knew John Kerry, and early in that year, would have done anything to oppose his campaign. Then he was visited from some young men, who were here between serving in Afghanistan. They told him what was actually going on. From then on, my friend supported Kerry.

I've liked John Kerry as a politician, and I know that if he had been elected and withdrawn the US, it would have been bad. But not as bad it is when you continue on the wrong path for twenty years.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:34 PM

36. +1000

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:47 PM

9. 756 Americans have died of Covid the past 24 hours

But by all means media, its all about Afghanistan where not one American has been killed in years.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:16 PM

28. I experience some difficulty

watching much of the media reporting. One woman on a CBS station said that Biden turned the country over to a terrorist organization. Don't get me wrong, I would not care to live under Taliban rule. That is one reason I worked to defeat Trump in 2020.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 06:54 PM

13. Brilliant analysis

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Response to malaise (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:27 PM

30. Thank you!

Coming from you, that definitely means a lot to me!

I watched a VICE report on people from Jamaica who are strongly opposing corporations mining their Sacred Lands for the raw material for tin. Then I saw people from Puerto Rico talking about how their resources are being exploited. Both of these islands are so beautiful, and people have been living in the harmony with that land, as had their ancestors.

Somehow, many Americans just don't get it. They recognize that everything wasn't on the up and up when land was taken from Native Americans in centuries past. It's the same thing. When I did an interview with Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman when Bush-Cheney were spreading the war in Afghanistan, he identified money as the central problem. Too many people value the power of money over the power of truth.

Paul said that if the US wanted to change Afghanistan, they should start by feeding and clothing the rural poor, as they were suffering the most. Build up from the lowest level. But the US attempted to make change from the top down, and at the end of a gun. That approach makes money for some, but suffering from many, many more.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:10 PM

16. If the other guy ever did anything right, it would stand out. And when Biden makes a mistake

it stands out for the same reason.

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Response to housecat (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:29 PM

31. Marvis Frazier, the

son of the late heavyweight champion, told me that since he was little, Smokin' Joe told him that there is no wrong way to do right, and no right way to do wrong. I think we agree that Trump lacked the capacity to do anything right, or for a right reason.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #31)

Wed Aug 18, 2021, 08:19 PM

43. Hadn't heard that. Thanks.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:13 PM

18. Thanks for this analysis, H20 Man



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Response to Hekate (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:30 PM

32. Thanks!

Much appreciated!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:24 PM

19. Reread The Ugly American!

Or read it for the first time. Written in the mid 1950's, we did 't learn then and we haven't gotten any smarter when it comes to the concept of nation building.

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Response to WVreaper (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:32 PM

33. Great idea!

we read that when I was in the 9th grade. And discussed it at length. Of course, the republicans would demand it be kept out of classrooms today, if they ever read and understood it.

Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:27 PM

20. Word, H2O Man!

“War is a racket.” — Maj. Gen. Smedley Darlington Butler, USMC (ret), 1935

“Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.” — President’s Daily Brief, 6 August 2001

“Money trumps peace.” — Pretzeldent George w Bush, 14 February 2007

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:33 PM

34. Thank you, my Friend!

"We must destroy the village in order to save it."

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:29 PM

21. Thank you H2O Man. Well said.

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Response to c-rational (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:33 PM

35. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 07:41 PM

22. "They were drunken thugs." Yes they were. Arrogant, entitled PNAC traitor "nation builders" for $$.

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Response to Evolve Dammit (Reply #22)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:35 PM

37. Right.

PNAC necroconservatives.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:06 PM

23. K&R

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:35 PM

38. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:49 PM

41. Sorry I didn't have a comment...

I didn't have anything to add to your words.



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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:50 PM

42. Oh, that's fine!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:13 PM

26. Kipling

Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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Response to trof (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:36 PM

39. Very good!

Thank you for this.

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Response to trof (Reply #26)

Wed Aug 18, 2021, 08:21 PM

44. thanks

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:18 PM

29. President Biden in a no-win scenario.

If he decided to stay, the republicans and some democrats would've chastised him.
If he decided to leave, the republicans and some democrats would've chastised him.

Virtually no one in the MSM is talking about TFG and Pompeo's stupid deal with the Taliban. The Taliban is as bad or worse at keeping their word as is TFG.

Now, we have 3 Democratic led Senate Committees vowing to investigate the Biden Administration's withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan.

Un-fucking-believable!

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Response to Mr. Evil (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 17, 2021, 10:38 PM

40. Seriously, right?

The republicans are going to try to use this to overshadow the investigation of January 6. We don't need Democrats assisting them in accomplishing that.

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