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Wed Sep 15, 2021, 03:52 PM

General Milley

Anyone asking for General Milley to resign is basically saying that it's OK to lose our democratic government.

Donald Trump gutted the defense department and put his cronies in power as acting this and acting that. Trump was trying to do a coup and General Milley was a guard rail for our democracy.

General Milley is a hero, Vindman is an asshole, he learned nothing about the former administration.

Nuff said.

By the bye, every head of every department of our military was worried that Trump was insane, it wasn't just Milley.

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply General Milley (Original post)
gab13by13 Sep 15 OP
Ohio Joe Sep 15 #1
gab13by13 Sep 15 #8
Tikki Sep 15 #27
TomSlick Sep 15 #36
Escurumbele Sep 15 #22
Name removed Sep 15 #2
denbot Sep 15 #3
hlthe2b Sep 15 #5
Uncle Joe Sep 15 #14
Act_of_Reparation Sep 15 #15
Uncle Joe Sep 15 #16
Act_of_Reparation Sep 16 #37
Uncle Joe Sep 16 #38
COL Mustard Sep 15 #23
jimfields33 Sep 15 #25
hlthe2b Sep 15 #29
jimfields33 Sep 15 #30
Escurumbele Sep 15 #26
pwb Sep 15 #4
PortTack Sep 15 #6
Tetrachloride Sep 15 #7
Baked Potato Sep 15 #9
Paladin Sep 15 #10
COL Mustard Sep 15 #28
Escurumbele Sep 15 #32
Caliman73 Sep 15 #34
Tommy Carcetti Sep 15 #11
Rebl2 Sep 15 #21
Beastly Boy Sep 15 #12
FalloutShelter Sep 15 #13
Pantagruel Sep 15 #17
FalloutShelter Sep 15 #18
Baked Potato Sep 15 #19
Duppers Sep 15 #20
Escurumbele Sep 15 #33
FalloutShelter Sep 15 #35
gab13by13 Sep 15 #24
Catherine Vincent Sep 15 #31

Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 03:55 PM

1. I do not think Vindman is an asshole...

I think he is wrong about Milley and what happened but I do not think he is an asshole.

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:23 PM

8. Vindman isn't an asshole,

he gives credence to people who attack General Milley.

The Trump administration ignored the rule of law and flaunted it, so when a General acts to save our democracy he is attacked for not following the letter of the law in one small instance.

He is a patriot.

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:29 PM

27. This is why millions of Biden voters didn't/haven't/won't go on camera

and explain why they voted for President Biden and against trump.

We acted to save our Democracy but going public we will be attacked for it.

There is no anonymity anymore. And the rw/evilgelical crazies don't fear consequences because they feel they are above everything.

Tikki

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Response to gab13by13 (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:47 PM

36. Not an asshole but miles out of his lane.

Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, was a staffer whose expertise was in European affairs, not national command authority policy. I cannot find an accurate CV for Lieutenant Colonel Vindman but it appears his last command was at the company level, after which he moved into being a staff expert in European politics and culture.

He lacks the training and experience to speak concerning nuclear command protocols and authority. He certainly has no experience in the relationship between the Joint Chiefs of Staff and commanders of major combatant commands, all general officer level commands.

The reports are that Gen. Milley was reminding major combatant commanders that it is the President - and not some White House staffer - that has the command authority to order a nuclear weapon strike. Given the chaos in the White House at the time, Gen. Milley's instruction that he should be on the call seems a reasonable safety step to insure that it was the President, and not some junior staffer, on the call.

I don't know if Gen. Milley's instructions to the major combatant commanders were strictly in compliance with the national command authority requirements for the use of nuclear weapons? I was only a colonel upon retirement and, like Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, have no experience in the area.

Is Lieutenant Colonel Vindman a patriot? You bet. Is he careful to speak only about subjects he clearly understands? Not so much.

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:27 PM

22. I agree that Vindman is not an asshole, but his opinion about Milley is wrong and he should stay

quiet about it.

Vindman's actions are comparable to Milley's, they both acted to stop a criminal, and they did, they both deserve the same recognition, so for Vidman to criticize Milley is in some way hypocritical and I am afraid that the media attention is getting to his head.

Thank you General Milley for preventing a catastrophe, thank you for preventing the end of the World as we know it, thank you for preventing millions of deaths that trump could have caused.

I don't know that many people realize how dangerous trump is if kept in power. He has never suffered consequences from his criminal actions, reason why the DOJ needs to act fast and put him behind bars, but again he doesn't understand that actions have consequences and a nuclear war will even kill him and his family, but he is so obtuse and ignorant that he doesn't understand that, so he WILL start a nuclear war if in his vile mind he thinks it will benefit him. You see, he thinks he is invincible, that he is a supernatural being, so a nuclear bomb will kill us all but not him.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)


Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:04 PM

3. Vinderman is technically correct, but officers are trained to adjust strategies.

Milley's strategy was to save the constitutional government, nearly half of which was trying to end it. This action has to be considered in it's entirety.

That being said, it to was extremely dangerous precedent, but he was in the chain of command on how orders were to be disseminated, and his order on it's face was to simply be aware and signed off on orders.

He did the right thing, for the right reasons.. this time..

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Response to denbot (Reply #3)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:10 PM

5. Officers are trained not to follow an illegal order or to violate the constitution...

so, I don't see this as so black and white.

That said, I respect Vindman, but on this issue, I'm all in support of the General. He may well have intervened to save our democracy.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:54 PM

14. One thing about Trump's seismic toxic legacy,

all manner of government civilian and military will have to be re-thought or updated.

I do believe the founders took into account the possibility of some future President going rogue or becoming mentally unfit (there were plenty of kings in history as example) and thus established our safe guards aka; the Congress, Supreme Court and Bill of Rights to check executive abuse of power but in today's infinitely faster pace of life, when nations can destroy cities on the other side of the planet in a matter of minutes and in turn life as we know it, what do you do?

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:59 PM

15. They anticipated the eventuality a despot would attain the presidency...

...what they didn't plan for was an entire political party going off the fucking rails.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #15)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:05 PM

16. Precisely

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #16)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 11:12 AM

37. Actually, now that I think of it, they kind of did.

If there was anything the Founders all had in common, it was a deep fear of the general population. They didn't think the common folk intelligent or tempered enough to have a say in government, and so they restricted voting to landowners and didn't provide for direct election of senators. Reading their letters reveals they were absolutely terrified an "impassioned mob" would trounce republican government.

I really don't know how I feel about this. I mean, I'm a liberal and in an ideal world direct democracy would be great. But looking around today... I dunno, maybe the founders were right to be afraid.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #37)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 11:22 AM

38. Actually, I believe they thought it in the realm of possibilities as well,

certainly George Washington.



(snip)

Political parties

Washington continues to advance his idea of the dangers of sectionalism and expands his warning to include the dangers of political parties to the country as a whole. These warnings are given in the context of the recent rise of two opposing parties within the government—the Democratic-Republican Party led by Jefferson, and Hamilton's Federalist Party. Washington had striven to remain neutral during a conflict between Britain and France brought about by the French Revolution, while the Democratic-Republicans had made efforts to align with France, and the Federalists had made efforts to ally with Great Britain.

Washington recognizes that it is natural for people to organize and operate within groups such as political parties, but he also argues that every government has recognized political parties as an enemy and has sought to repress them because of their tendency to seek more power than other groups and to take revenge on political opponents.[4] He feels that disagreements between political parties weakened the government.

Moreover, he makes the case that "the alternate domination" of one party over another and coinciding efforts to exact revenge upon their opponents have led to horrible atrocities, and "is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism." From Washington's perspective and judgment, political parties eventually and "gradually incline the minds of men to seek security… in the absolute power of an individual",[1] leading to despotism. He acknowledges the fact that parties are sometimes beneficial in promoting liberty in monarchies, but he argues that political parties must be restrained in a popularly elected government because of their tendency to distract the government from their duties, create unfounded jealousies among groups and regions, raise false alarms among the people, promote riots and insurrection, and provide foreign nations and interests access to the government where they can impose their will upon the country.

(snip)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington%27s_Farewell_Address


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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:27 PM

23. Officers Are Not Only Trained Not To Follow An Illegal Order

It's part of our oath (I have taken it many times, and each time its meaning grows dearer to me). The oath of enlistment includes the clause "obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over me". The oath of office does not. I, as an officer (I am currently a retired officer and a serving civil servant), am obligated by my oath not to follow an illegal order. If I obey an illegal order I am at greater risk than if I do not. However, any order originating from the POTUS in his capacity as the CINC is inherently assumed to be legal (clearly that needs more study given TFG), so what Milley was doing is absolutely correct. If TFG had found out about Milley's phone calls to China, he'd have been canned on the spot, and we'd have lost a firewall against the attempted coup.

I am often of two minds of GEN Milley, (we're the same age) but in this case he did exactly right.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:28 PM

25. There was no illegal order given

Did trunp say to the General nuke russia or China or anywhere? This allows for future generals to notify future foreign countries about anything they feel threatened by.

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Response to jimfields33 (Reply #25)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:29 PM

29. It is a general statement of the oath taken as the subthread is a generalized discussion as well.

However, Milley was anticipating an illegal order to be given, so it DOES apply.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #29)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:30 PM

30. Got it. Thanks!

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:29 PM

26. Our Democracy???? He saved more than that, a Nuclear War would have killed millions and destroyed

1/2 the World. Definitely would have destroyed the USA.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:06 PM

4. I agree.

A unlawful order can be refused. And Generals do talk to each other from countries all over world without checking in with the President.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:12 PM

6. the Country was in grave peril. Milley not only saved democracy, he saved literally millions of

Lives, his soldiers and civilians. This is why ppl like him are in the positions they are in.

History will no doubt rightly portray him as a hero.

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Response to PortTack (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:23 PM

7. ++

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:25 PM

9. I would defer to Malcolm Nance and Ted Lieu on this:

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:26 PM

10. Both Milley and Vindman swore to uphold the Constitution, not a lunatic president.

Milley will still be considered an American hero, long after Vindman has been forgotten.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:29 PM

28. I Think Vindman Should Be Remembered

He was a relatively junior staffer who had the moral courage of his convictions to bring to light what he perceived as wrongdoing. That takes guts.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:36 PM

32. Vindman is wrong on this, but he will never be forgotten as long as real history is preserved.

His did allowed the 1st impeachment of the worst president this country has ever had to happen, without him the impeachment would have never occurred. Is Vindman wrong on this? 100% but no need to become angry or call him names.

I have a feeling that the media attention Vindman has had may have pushed him to not think his comment thoroughly.

I always told the people who worked for me, and my kids, that if they ever get an email that makes them angry, go ahead and write an angry response, let it out of your system but DON'T SEND IT, because you will be sorry you did. So write the email, then delete all the context and start all over again, write a very polite and friendly response, it will be very rewarding, you have already let your anger out.

THINK BEFORE YOU ACT...I don't think Vindman gave too much thought to his tweet.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #10)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:39 PM

34. It doesn't have to be either or...

Vindman can simply be wrong on this issue but remain a hero.

This can become the problem when we assign value based on our own interpretation of what is important in the moment or not.

I think that it is a discussion worth having, however wrong I think Vindman is in this situation. The thing is, that the lower your rank, the more narrow your field of vision is. Vindman being a junior officer, has the luxury of hiding behind the very strict structures of the law. People who are in charge of much larger areas of operation, have to interpret law and ethics in much more complex situations as Milley was required to.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:32 PM

11. Vindman is not an asshole.

He is a brave, decent and honorable man.

Honorable men, however, are still capable of having bad takes from time to time.

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Response to Tommy Carcetti (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:18 PM

21. If he had

been in charge, would Vindman have ignored our constitution and blindly follow orders that violate the constitutional oath he took?

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:41 PM

12. Vindman is a hero.

So is Milley. To become a hero that he is, Milley had to pay a price. His price was to violate military code. He did it knowingly and willingly, sacrificing his personal and professional code of conduct for the sake of, quite literally, preventing the possibility of WW3. It takes a person of incredible moral fortitude and integrity to make such momentous choice.

The stakes for Vindman were not nearly as high, but he also made a selfless sacrifice. rather than risk the promotions of thousands of his fellow officers, he resigned. It is not unreasonable to expect Milley to make an equally selfless move. And this expectation would carry no hint of indignation over Milley's conduct. It's just the right thing to do. In fact, were Milley to resign, he would become even more of a hero: in addition to standing up to a tyrant, he would also remain true to his professional integrity.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:51 PM

13. Just going to leave this here.

Rare Existential Necessity: "A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation." -Thomas Jefferson

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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:18 PM

17. Sounds like

an "originalist" interpretation of Milley's actions to me.

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Response to Pantagruel (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:21 PM

18. Yup!

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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:47 PM

19. Yes, great quote. Nt

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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:48 PM

20. Great Quote. Most applicable to this situation.

Last edited Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Anyone faulting Gen. Milley must also acknowledge that Speaker Pelosi must then also be faulted.

Gen. Milley notified her.

Pelosi reply regarding Trump and his possible orders:

"He is crazy."




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Response to FalloutShelter (Reply #13)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:37 PM

33. Excellent...Thank you

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #33)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:57 PM

35. Sure.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:27 PM

24. I can't prove a negative,

but General Milley may well have prevented a coup. Not sure what military code of conduct he supposedly broke?

The heads of the Army, Marines, Navy, Air Force were all on board with General Milley, he wasn't alone in believing that Trump was unhinged.

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Response to gab13by13 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:32 PM

31. So do some maggats love him now?

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