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Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:18 PM

How can you be a doctor or nurse in this country and be anti-vaccine ? I do not get it...

Background: I went to a nurse yesterday to get one of my required (for international travel) vaccines for Hepatitis A and B. During the procedure, I asked him if he encountered any anti-vaxxers.

He replied that yes, he did. Both the "hesitant-need-good-info" as well as the hard-core-over-my-dead-body (literally) anti-vaxxers. He said he had gotten some doctors and nurses who were anti-COVID-19 vaccine.

How does this happen ? Doesn't the training to be ANY kind of physician or nurse include training on the necessity and effectiveness of vaccines ? Or was this training all some nefarious Bill Gates-run conspiracy ? /sarcasm off

Thanks in advance.

Steve

29 replies, 1009 views

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Reply How can you be a doctor or nurse in this country and be anti-vaccine ? I do not get it... (Original post)
steve2470 Sep 18 OP
LeftInTX Sep 18 #1
harumph Sep 18 #8
LeftInTX Sep 18 #14
hlthe2b Sep 18 #2
steve2470 Sep 18 #4
Silent3 Sep 18 #3
flying_wahini Sep 18 #5
mucifer Sep 18 #6
hlthe2b Sep 18 #10
cadoman Sep 18 #7
mucifer Sep 18 #9
Chin music Sep 18 #19
Dream Girl Sep 18 #11
marybourg Sep 18 #12
Ziggysmom Sep 18 #15
Chin music Sep 18 #20
marybourg Sep 18 #21
Chin music Sep 18 #23
lambchopp59 Sep 18 #13
marybourg Sep 18 #22
lambchopp59 Sep 18 #26
marybourg Sep 18 #29
LetMyPeopleVote Sep 18 #16
doc03 Sep 18 #17
kskiska Sep 18 #18
UTUSN Sep 18 #24
cinematicdiversions Sep 18 #25
Tree Lady Sep 18 #27
haele Sep 18 #28

Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:22 PM

1. I think alot of nurses who are opposed think they, "know it all"

It's easy to start reading all sorts of scientific journals and come up with all sorts of conclusions. Nurses really don't have the medical training. They are not MD's. It's a case of a bit of knowledge is dangerous type thing. Maybe they are MD "wanna be" types.

I can't speak for doctors.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:45 PM

8. Most people do not have any medical training at all - but

amazingly enough still believe in the science and get vaccinated. My wife is nationally certified
practices at a major hospital and also certified for air transport i.e., med flight. There are nurses and there
are "nurses." She's as dumbfounded as everyone else at nurses who don't want to be
vaccinated.

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Response to harumph (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:31 PM

14. A couple of crtical care nurses on Nextdoor using technical jargon to support their anti-vax stance

It goes over everyone's head and that's the point...

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:25 PM

2. There is a long precedence with HIV/AIDS denial (and before)--also championed by conservatives

Some of them are well educated yet determined to be "contrarian." Others obviously never fully understood the subjects they studied. Others were merely grifters capitalizing on the fears and ignorance of the masses... Unfortunately for those who caused immeasurable suffering with their denialist lies re: HIV as the cause of AIDS-- leading to some horrendous policies and persecution across the globe, the risk to these charlatans from contracting the disease itself was in their own hands and limited. So, they went on to do their damage throughout their careers, sans any real karmic intervention.

From the Wiki page on HIV/AIDS denial:


Several scientists have been associated with HIV/AIDS denialism, although they have not themselves studied AIDS or HIV.[9] One of the most famous and influential is Duesberg, professor of molecular and cell biology at the University of California, Berkeley, who since 1987 has disputed that the scientific evidence shows that HIV causes AIDS.[23] Other scientists associated with HIV/AIDS denialism include biochemists David Rasnick and Harvey Bialy. Biologist Lynn Margulis argued that "there's no evidence that HIV is an infectious virus" and that AIDS symptoms "overlap...completely" with those of syphilis.[71] Pathologist Étienne de Harven also expressed sympathy for HIV/AIDS denial.[72][73] AIDS researcher Seth Kalichman lists biochemist Kary Mullis "among the who's who of AIDS pseudoscientists" despite Mullis winning the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his role in the development of the polymerase chain reaction.[74] Mullis, who did not do any HIV research, expressed skepticism about the relationship between HIV and AIDS in his 1998 autobiography.[72]: 124 

Additional notable HIV/AIDS denialists include Australian academic ethicist Hiram Caton, the late mathematician Serge Lang,[75] former college administrator Henry Bauer, journalist Celia Farber, American talk radio host and author on alternative and complementary medicine and nutrition Gary Null, and the late activist Christine Maggiore, who encouraged HIV-positive mothers to forgo anti-HIV treatment and whose 3-year-old daughter died of complications of untreated AIDS.[76] Nate Mendel, bassist with the rock band Foo Fighters, expressed support for HIV/AIDS denialist ideas and organized a benefit concert in January 2000 for Maggiore's organization Alive & Well AIDS Alternatives.[77] Organizations of HIV/AIDS denialists include the Perth Group, composed of several Australian hospital workers, and the Immunity Resource Foundation.[78]

HIV/AIDS denialism has received some support from political conservatives in the United States. Duesberg's work has been published in Policy Review, a journal once published by The Heritage Foundation but later acquired by the Hoover Institution,[79][80][81] and by Regnery Publishing. Regnery published Duesberg's Inventing the AIDS Virus in 1996,[82] and journalist Tom Bethell's The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science, in which he endorses HIV/AIDS denialism, in 2005.[83] Law professor Phillip E. Johnson has accused the Centers for Disease Control of "fraud" in relation to HIV/AIDS.[84] Describing the political aspects of the HIV/AIDS denialism movement, Sociology professor Steven Epstein wrote in Impure Science that "... the appeal of Duesberg's views to conservatives—certainly including those with little sympathy for the gay movement—cannot be denied."[85] The blog LewRockwell.com has also published articles supportive of HIV/AIDS denialism.[86]

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:27 PM

4. thanks for this ! nt

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:26 PM

3. There's a fairly large "alternative medicine" contigent in American nursing unfortunately

The same kind of thinking that makes people embrace acupuncture, reiki, crystals, unproven forms of herbalism, etc., leaves them open to anti-vax propaganda too.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:27 PM

5. I was a nurse for 23 years and can tell you that most all nurses are pro vax.


Most of the anti vaxers are brainwashed and that includes some dumbbells in all professions.

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Response to flying_wahini (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:39 PM

6. This is anecdotal of course. But, I work with 3 RNs and 1 APN

The APN and I are the only pro vax nurses. I am an RN. Things might not be the same now as when you were a nurse.

BTW Governor Pritzker mandated the vaccine and our company is very much pro vaccine. All of the nurses are staying . So either they got the vax or they got some sort of exemption.

Thank you Governor Pritzker!

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Response to flying_wahini (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:54 PM

10. One thing that I'd love to see some data on is that I'd bet that veterinarians stand alone in

having the most limited opposition to vaccinations--from both the companion animal, livestock, and human point of view. Obviously, the training for veterinarians focuses far more on "herd health," pets to the contrary, than that provided future physicians. In addition, they are the front line for identifying zoonotic diseases that can be spread to humans. There is a reason why so many veterinarians take prominent public health positions--including at CDC and state/local health departments. Their training is often far more appropriate to epidemiology, disease control, and public health.

I have never come across an anti-vaxx veterinarian though there probably may be some. But, I'd bet $$ there are less than among those other professions, including clinical human medicine--who SHOULD know better.

Medical and nursing schools desperately need to bring more immunology, epidemiology, and public health to the curriculums. The programs once did. We suffer for their diminished influence.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:45 PM

7. keep a list of any people you see exhibiting that thinking, it will be worth $$$ soon

Just a heads up.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:46 PM

9. I think it's that they worship trumpism and right wing media more than science. Some are new agers

influenced by some new age bullcrap.

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Response to mucifer (Reply #9)


Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 03:58 PM

11. The Facebook effect.

 

Facebooks has changed everything in many, many ways. People with less critical thinking skills are susceptible to all manner of bs that comes their way.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:16 PM

12. I think some nurses are not at all committed

to medical science, but became nurses because those were the best-paying jobs in an area without many other job choices.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #12)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:36 PM

15. Bingo! That's very true. I left nursing for computer science in the 90s because I could not

tolerate stupid people. Many nurses I knew only cared about a paycheck. Some doctors, too.

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Response to marybourg (Reply #12)


Response to Chin music (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 05:55 PM

21. I forgot about that. Used to be very common.

Now half the doctors are women, and they marry each other!

( how come we don’t have any moneybags smilies?)

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Response to marybourg (Reply #21)


Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:29 PM

13. I'll be going back to work soon

Imaging departments have been especially bad with anti-vaxxers, even a few mouth breathers only wearing their masks when the boss appears. There's been rifts in departments about this throughout the pandemic. I've frequently been more afraid of exposure to some Fox News following possible asymptomatic carriers than going into COVID rooms. Pandemic related stress factors in hospitals caused my blood pressure to totally peak. I took the summer off to chill.
Had it not been for the mandates coming down the pike at healthcare facilities, I'd have taken my minimal SSI retirement and prepared to eat a lot of Vienna sausage and macaroni and cheese.
It is anticipated imaging will have lots of openings soon. I'll return to travel gigs soon now far more confident, freshly booster-vaxxed that the danger from Trumpers has been minimized.
How imaging staff can deny this disease is a calamity and see what we see daily? Beats me. In 32 years of imaging I've never seen the number of patients with rapid deterioration COVID hallmark disease progression that prior to COVID even seriously immunocompromised patients with pneumonia very seldom experienced.
Anti-vaxxers DO NOT BELONG in any medical practice.

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Response to lambchopp59 (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 05:59 PM

22. Just "SS" . "SSI" is a welfare program, for which I don't imagine

you qualify. Don’t you also have some sort of pension program?

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Response to marybourg (Reply #22)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 06:48 PM

26. I stand corrected. Turning 62 I'm just now learning about social security. Pension. LOL...

It's the gig economy, has been ever since I started my career. For those lucky few who have been working 30 plus years in the same place (unusual and becoming increasingly rare) even their own retirements got shredded, diced, sliced to the point that a nurse I know who recently retired because of the stress of the pandemic, let me know exactly what happened to the amount she expected. Let's just say "Fidelity" ended up with most of it. She's 2 years ahead of me and will be living on her SS.
Turnover rates in hospitals have become astonishingly, increasingly rap for patient care personnel. No one without nepotism related connections retains their job, and I've worked at more facilities that have more travelers and contractors than those with mostly permanent employees. Hospitals are hotbeds of drama, and it's easy to do everything exactly right in healthcare settings and still get fired, laid off, screwed or just contract ended because they've hired a "permanent"-- what a joke-- in the average of 2 months they're listing for another traveler.
Twice now I've had to cash in my retirement savings to survive the job market fluctuations between gigs. 2010 nearly totally broke me... again. Each time, the investment companies ended up with most of those savings plans. This has been the first period of unemployment of my choosing. Recovery from COVID hasn't been cheap nor done my usual energy any favors.
I've given up that sort of hope. That only exists for the well connected, the well inherited. I can only hope my health holds out long enough to collect survivable SS amount. That's in 4 years, and I'll be boondocking winters off grid in a motorhome on BLM land to do that. Hopefully someone discovers I've passed on in there before my dog runs out of corpse to consume.
I inherited nothing of value. My parents were of the Reagan-esque ilk that squandered everything, spared only off color jokes about their "gay" son.
I imagine most of the patients I've ever cared for have no idea I was doing so after sleeping quite often in my car. I have no family my age that aren't idiotic Trumpers. None of the older generation ever wrote, emailed, displayed even the slightest curiosity if I'm dead or alive. I'm either, below their university-educational strata, or of the sexual minority deserving of no consideration. I'll never know, a attempts at contacting or rekindling ties any of them have always, for 40 years, been "ghosted".
Frustrating? You bet. Although I earn an above-average income, it costs so much to maintain a living, healthcare, ridiculous rents and basic costs to keep working even without many of the luxuries my "boomer" family were accustomed to (entertainment, world travel, RV's, boats, homes) I'll never know. It took me nearly a decade just to pay off my student debt and get out of the total upside-down for vehicles until I'd earned "credit". I've spent so damn much money that went straight to enormous corporations it's sickening.
Sorry, I'm really fed up today. So fed up with living in what my older boomer relatives took lake vacations in. So worried that all my hard work earned so little to show for it. So upset that much of the future generation has it even worse.

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Response to lambchopp59 (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 09:44 PM

29. Social Security runs a very good website, where you

can find out what you’d be entitled to at different ages.

Sorry that you had such a hard time of it.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:41 PM

16. I am confused by this also

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 04:42 PM

17. How can you be a nurse and see how people suffer

from lung cancer and still smoke? I think more of them smoke than the general public.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 05:32 PM

18. Another thing I've noticed - Many nurses I've had contact with are overweight.

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Response to kskiska (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 06:30 PM

24. Hah! - many years ago my primary doctor sent me to a cardiologist

and in our next appointment asked what the cardio had said. I said, "He said I need to lose weight, but standing next to him his nurse was 300 pounds or more."

And my doctor said, "Well, there are some things we can't control."

I might have said, "Well, that goes for ME, too!1"






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Response to kskiska (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 06:34 PM

25. And a surprising number smoke.

I would bet nurses probably smoke at higher rates than the general population at large.

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Response to kskiska (Reply #18)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 06:53 PM

27. Doctors are too

I find I do best with doctors that are not overweight and exercise or do activities like hiking, skiing and such.

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Response to steve2470 (Original post)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 08:56 PM

28. Religion, Politics, or just plain "I don't have time to have a bad reaction"

Some people can't bear to think they're mortal, and getting a vaccine for Covid is a sign of weakness to them.
Some people's social affiliations mean more to them than their health or their family's health. I'm thinking that's what a lot of vaccine adverse medical personnel fall prey to.
And then, some people just don't care. They ran their own risk assessment and figured their personal risk wasn't enough to warrant taking the time to get the shot and maybe have a bad couple days if they get a reaction.

Haele

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