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What if -- and stick with me for a minute, because this is a pretty far out concept (Original Post) Uncle Joe Oct 2021 OP
Corrupt members of congress won't get absurdly wealthy helping the working class. Irish_Dem Oct 2021 #1
So very true. wnylib Oct 2021 #19
Yes we need to fight the corruption and greed rampant in our congress. Irish_Dem Oct 2021 #20
Bernie has been preaching this for so loooooong. notinkansas Oct 2021 #2
It's only a far out concept because the people allow it to be. They face no repercussions when they Autumn Oct 2021 #3
Under normal circumstances Uncle Joe Oct 2021 #6
Ah, to dream OldBaldy1701E Oct 2021 #31
So on point Farmer-Rick Oct 2021 #35
I don't believe you believe that Uncle Joe Oct 2021 #55
I would respectfully remind you OldBaldy1701E Oct 2021 #57
Eugenics Uncle Joe Oct 2021 #58
However OldBaldy1701E Oct 2021 #61
Yea, right, that will happen. Srkdqltr Oct 2021 #4
We have to pay multigraincracker Oct 2021 #5
What socialists are you thinking of? brooklynite Oct 2021 #41
To the trumpsters, ANY country with ANY kind of services... albacore Oct 2021 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author brooklynite Oct 2021 #42
Any thoughts he has on how to do that? brooklynite Oct 2021 #7
Sadly it might take years and natural attrition. bluewater Oct 2021 #8
Well, communicating ideas and concepts... ret5hd Oct 2021 #10
Maintaining the status quo, resisting change, grudgingly taking small steps forward... bluewater Oct 2021 #12
You know, those that are openly against me...the ideals I hold, the causes I believe in, etc... ret5hd Oct 2021 #13
+1000 bluewater Oct 2021 #14
The last time I checked, we had this thing called the Senate and House... brooklynite Oct 2021 #44
Ahh, I see. Tweets should be... ret5hd Oct 2021 #45
Perhaps they don't need to be Tweets.... brooklynite Oct 2021 #46
Well, no one can accuse you of that. ret5hd Oct 2021 #47
Very true... brooklynite Oct 2021 #48
You do, however, seem to be proficient at... ret5hd Oct 2021 #50
"far out concept to some of my Republican colleagues." These days, ALL of them. nt Hortensis Oct 2021 #9
But emails, Bengazi, TFG, Debt, Afghan with drawl, their so busy... RANDYWILDMAN Oct 2021 #11
Yeah. what a concept. This is why many of us can't have nice things. virgdem Oct 2021 #15
never happen llashram Oct 2021 #16
No they won't. And I will tell you why. PatrickforB Oct 2021 #23
Utopia llashram Oct 2021 #56
Whoa, whoa, whoa there pardner. Billionaire Lives Matter too. Ask one, czarjak Oct 2021 #17
Wait a minute... progressoid Oct 2021 #18
Nice change, isn't it? Let's hope it lasts. NurseJackie Oct 2021 #34
Senate Budget Committee chair. betsuni Oct 2021 #51
It seems to be a bit late, and perfunctory. NurseJackie Oct 2021 #52
I guess people unfamiliar with Bernie don't know the same things he's said for decades. betsuni Oct 2021 #53
Yes, what if... Joinfortmill Oct 2021 #21
Who gets to define "working class"? Beastly Boy Oct 2021 #22
He never said millonaires. Jon King Oct 2021 #24
Your post begs for even more definitions. Beastly Boy Oct 2021 #25
+1 sheshe2 Oct 2021 #26
He dropped the "millionaires" sometime in late 2016. George II Oct 2021 #37
That was the same year that he became a millionaire with his book sales, or something. NurseJackie Oct 2021 #39
It would be difficult bucolic_frolic Oct 2021 #27
Twitter reply : Rhiannon12866 Oct 2021 #28
I like Bernie, but ymetca Oct 2021 #29
In some countries . . . Aussie105 Oct 2021 #30
In the US the limit for accepting gifts is something like $1000 total per year. That allows things.. George II Oct 2021 #38
It's a pretty far out concept to conservative Democrats as well. Roisin Ni Fiachra Oct 2021 #32
Governing (politics) is a get-rich-quick scheme. How else did Sinema go from a Vinca Oct 2021 #33
That's a false story going around Twitter. Sinema did NOT go from a net worth of $35,000 to.... George II Oct 2021 #40
We are the most ripped-off of any developed nation. See: TeamProg Oct 2021 #36
k and r Champp Oct 2021 #43
Most republicans in Congress Mr.Bill Oct 2021 #54
Uncle Joe kpete Oct 2021 #59
kpete Uncle Joe Oct 2021 #60

Irish_Dem

(46,426 posts)
1. Corrupt members of congress won't get absurdly wealthy helping the working class.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:34 PM
Oct 2021

Therein lies the problem.

wnylib

(21,303 posts)
19. So very true.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 02:43 PM
Oct 2021

But we outnumber them, so if we can persuade enough people, we can change who represents us in government.

notinkansas

(1,096 posts)
2. Bernie has been preaching this for so loooooong.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:39 PM
Oct 2021

One would think that the powers that be would eventually be embarrassed about constantly funneling everything to the top 1%. That is - if they had a conscience. Alas...

Autumn

(44,972 posts)
3. It's only a far out concept because the people allow it to be. They face no repercussions when they
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:40 PM
Oct 2021

fuck over the people who voted for them. Instead they get elected again and again.

Uncle Joe

(58,268 posts)
6. Under normal circumstances
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:49 PM
Oct 2021

I would agree with you pretty much without exception.

However I believe we are facing some highly unique circumstances in our nation today which is creating some dynamics that could make this an exception to the rule.

OldBaldy1701E

(5,079 posts)
31. Ah, to dream
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 07:55 AM
Oct 2021

When this pandemic hit hard, I was decidedly optimistic in that, once I saw what was happening, I was pretty sure there would have to be changes in our societal model, hopefully into a more equitable and fair-minded society. Yeah, right. All I have heard since this happened is the voice of capitalism demanding to 'go back to how things were'. And, they have convinced everyone that this is what has to happen. So now, any thoughts of progress have been shut down again. (Well the wealth of the top percentile will 'progress', but for the rest of us it is back to the grind of slowly dying for a tiny group of people who could care less.) I think I am now at the point where I am done even daydreaming about such things. The green monster has won.

Farmer-Rick

(10,134 posts)
35. So on point
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 09:32 AM
Oct 2021

This +10000:

"All I have heard since this happened is the voice of capitalism demanding to 'go back to how things were'. And, they have convinced everyone that this is what has to happen."

We are going onto over a million deaths from Covid-19 and all we hear is open schools, go back to work, go back to shopping, die for what exactly? Risk your life so you can make barely enough to survive. All the while those 300 people, in the US who were born with leftover capital from a dead relative, are making more, and more, and more, and more wealth. They rule us through their corporations, their insurance companies, their monopolies, their lobbyists, their campaign contributions, and now their laws.

And as you say above, all thought of progress has been shut down. Something is going to break here and it won't be the peasants.

OldBaldy1701E

(5,079 posts)
57. I would respectfully remind you
Mon Oct 4, 2021, 06:45 PM
Oct 2021

That we had a third world war in that timeline. I wonder what caused it?

OldBaldy1701E

(5,079 posts)
61. However
Mon Oct 4, 2021, 10:04 PM
Oct 2021

I chose both the nick and the image to be inspired. I would have made a pitiful Starfleet member myself. I guess it was my attempt to try and be a better version of myself. Guess that didn't work either.

multigraincracker

(32,632 posts)
5. We have to pay
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:47 PM
Oct 2021

$200 a month for internet/cable and another $200 a month for cell service. Like more than double what those damn Socialists pay. But don’t tell that to cheap labor Americans.

albacore

(2,398 posts)
49. To the trumpsters, ANY country with ANY kind of services...
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 05:35 PM
Oct 2021

..for regular people is automatically "socialist".
Since they don't know what any of the "-isms" are, "socialism" is merely the current word that triggers their massive download in their Depends.

Response to multigraincracker (Reply #5)

brooklynite

(94,300 posts)
7. Any thoughts he has on how to do that?
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:53 PM
Oct 2021

He’ll need to convince some people who don’t already agree with him.

bluewater

(5,376 posts)
8. Sadly it might take years and natural attrition.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 12:59 PM
Oct 2021

As older, more conservative voters pass away they are replaced by a younger generation that are more willing to change the status quo.

Also, older people are more likely to actually get out and vote, so as people who agree with Senator Sanders get older themselves, they will become more reliable voters and then, perhaps, things will change.

ret5hd

(20,480 posts)
10. Well, communicating ideas and concepts...
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 01:03 PM
Oct 2021

using media, social and otherwise, to spread the ideas and concepts MIGHT further his goals.

Are you suggesting he shut up and stay in the background till he has convinced enough people to agree with him?

Any thoughts on how that is supposed to work???

bluewater

(5,376 posts)
12. Maintaining the status quo, resisting change, grudgingly taking small steps forward...
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 01:12 PM
Oct 2021

Then saying you were always for expanding the social contract once change actually happens seems to be how things ACTUALLY work.



ret5hd

(20,480 posts)
13. You know, those that are openly against me...the ideals I hold, the causes I believe in, etc...
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 01:44 PM
Oct 2021

I might despise them, I might want to piss on their graves. But at least they have enough "whatever" to wave the flag they are fighting for.

BUT, those that claim to be on the same side, claim to hold the same ideals, etc...and yet every idea forward is met with "that'll never work", "that's too much", "good luck with THAT"...all while extolling ideas that amount to desalinating the ocean one teaspoon at a time,
"slow down there young fella, slow down"...

they hold a special place...a place maybe similar to the place Benedict Arnold is held...

Just rambling. Apropos of nothing, I guess.

brooklynite

(94,300 posts)
44. The last time I checked, we had this thing called the Senate and House...
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 04:51 PM
Oct 2021

...and members were supposed to try to convince each other to support their policies. Especially if they (and their supporters) professed to be "leaders".

From the Tweet in question, I saw nothing that was going to convince someone with a different opinion, and nothing that told people who already agreed what to do to convince others.

ret5hd

(20,480 posts)
45. Ahh, I see. Tweets should be...
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 05:14 PM
Oct 2021

fully articulated action plans, preferably with bullet points and committee assignments.

What is the minimum number of tweets that you would consider as having adequately covered a subject such as this?

“53/3237 and upon such assignments the assignees shall meet weekly, report the progress of items 67 thru 93 as listed above, and compile a report to my office regarding necessary future action, focusing on any such actions deemed urgent.

54/3237 etc etc etc”

brooklynite

(94,300 posts)
46. Perhaps they don't need to be Tweets....
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 05:20 PM
Oct 2021

Personally, I've never been a fan of speeches (given, written or Tweeted) who's sole value seems to be making supporters feel good.

brooklynite

(94,300 posts)
48. Very true...
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 05:30 PM
Oct 2021

I've learned that emotion isn't a good basis for making political decisions, so I don't look for people to tell me what I want to hear, I look for people to tell me how they're going to achieve the things I want.

ret5hd

(20,480 posts)
50. You do, however, seem to be proficient at...
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 05:48 PM
Oct 2021

using short-form communication to convey all the things we do wrong.

RANDYWILDMAN

(2,663 posts)
11. But emails, Bengazi, TFG, Debt, Afghan with drawl, their so busy...
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 01:11 PM
Oct 2021

The republicans have been ignoring most Americans since they tricked tons of people into voting for Reagan and they have been running a freaking smoke show ever since with cover from ALL the media.

llashram

(6,265 posts)
16. never happen
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 02:08 PM
Oct 2021

money is god in this world, the US especially. Corporations will be the PTB forever and ever...

PatrickforB

(14,557 posts)
23. No they won't. And I will tell you why.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 03:12 PM
Oct 2021

It is a matter of supply and demand.

Here in that capitalist utopia that is America, we celebrate shareholder profits over human life. Because of our shareholder primacy model, the greatest consumer market in human history, us, is a really, really expensive place to live. We get nickel and dimed to death, and the middle class is nearly extinct. Most Americans are a paycheck away from not being able to pay the bills, and the average American cannot deal with a $400 unplanned expenditure.

Because of this, we demand cheap, high quality goods, which has made a permanent low-paid, no benefits, no predictable hours workforce a necessity. But these darned Democrats keep raising the minimum wage!

Now, as businesses are facing chronic labor shortages because people are no longer willing to work really hard in bad conditions, with unpredictable hours, low pay and no benefits, they are accelerating capital expenditures to keep productivity high with fewer people on the payroll.

What this means is that American corporations, and small businesses, routinely outsource business functions overseas where wages are much cheaper. This way, they can continue keeping labor costs down while profits stay high. Right now, 'Murika outsources around 300,000 jobs a year, and while this has created jobs overseas, wages are so low in Asia, Eastern Europe, and Central/South America, that many of the workers cannot afford the goods they produce, or the services they support.

The real issue here, though, is automation and artificial intelligence. It has been automation that has allowed many of these jobs to be offshored. Oh, we hear about factories packing up, and moving the whole shebang to Mexico or the like, and NAFTA did cost us around 800,000 jobs by some estimates. But it is automation and artificial intelligence that allows the outsourcing of jobs like software development, customer support, digital marketing, accounting and other business support functions.

As workers lose livelihoods to automation, there will be fewer jobs - if a company spends capital to automate operations and lays off ten people as a result, they will only need perhaps 2 or 3 workers to manage the automated operation. We see this with today's modern cotton farming, which is now a one person operation using high-tech agri methods instead of human labor.

It is these workers who BUY THE STUFF that generates the profits for shareholders!

See the problem? It is ultimately a house of cards. If corporations are able to automate fully so most of the workers are no longer necessary, how will demand for goods and services remain high enough to keep the companies afloat?

It is at this point that, over massive, massive resistance from conservatives and so-called 'moderates', we will have to rethink how we organize and operate our economy. Capitalism is a house of cards that holds the seeds of its own destruction because unlimited growth is a philosophy more akin to cancer cells that healthy human culture.

We could, actually write a book about this, because ultimately what will have to 'go' is stratospheric profits, and big multinationals like the 55 major corporations that did not pay any federal income tax last year, can afford this, but small businesses not so much, and certainly not franchises.

But it is breaking down. You can see it. The consumer supply chain is not 'healing' like the experts said it would. The anti-vaxxers have seen to that. Did you know there are sailors in merchant marines who HAVE NOT BEEN ASHORE AT ALL IN TWO YEARS? In Chicago, they have severe truck driver shortages and cannot find barge pilots to carry cargo downriver. For the barges, they are offering thousands of dollars as sign-on bonuses, and a forty-day-on, forty-day-off schedule, and they cannot find enough people who want to do that. Same with OTR trucking.

Instead 9 in 10 global workers now, after being home for months during the pandemic, have discovered a) they don't really need as much consumer stuff, b) they now insist on better wages, and better benefits, such as healthcare and defined benefit pensions, and c) they would like more say in when and where they work.

We are literally watching the death-throes of late stage capitalism and the birth of another, hopefully more humane system, my friend. Call me a utopian - God knows many people have - but what would it be like if we reorganized our society around human need, and created a system where everyone had enough. Think of it! Gone would be the days when 25,000 people a day starve to death on this planet. Gone would be wage slavery and debt slavery. Gone would be...well, you can fill in the blank.

Maybe time for us to grow up and begin thinking and planning as a species.

llashram

(6,265 posts)
56. Utopia
Mon Oct 4, 2021, 02:45 PM
Oct 2021

has always been a fanciful thought in my mind. Nothing wrong with your vision(s) as I read here. I want Americans of all races, cultures, genders and creeds to be united just once before I pass this existence. And no war needed for that to happen. Utopian society as envisioned by you is appreciated by me who continually fights himself to maintain some positivity as you have written-penned here.

As to filling in the blank, gone would be the massive disunity, inequality and hate.

Keep on pushing my friend we need many more like you. Many people will read your visions of a better world and who knows maybe one day...

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
52. It seems to be a bit late, and perfunctory.
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 06:46 PM
Oct 2021

Considering all that he's said before, it's difficult for me to believe the sincerity of this overnight change.

betsuni

(25,367 posts)
53. I guess people unfamiliar with Bernie don't know the same things he's said for decades.
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 07:11 PM
Oct 2021

It's a big change. I wonder why supporters don't know this. Don't they actually listen to him? It's odd!

Beastly Boy

(9,228 posts)
22. Who gets to define "working class"?
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 03:11 PM
Oct 2021

Are highly salaried engineers or IT managers "working class"? Are financial advisors and lawyers? Are CEOs? They all work for a living.

What about the homeless? People surviving off the social safety net, as inadequate as it is? Seniors? The vast majority of them are certainly not "working class", are they?

Who exactly are the people the government is supposed to deliver to, and who are not? And who manages the deliverables? The only reference Bernie gives is "millionaires and billionaires" That would be about 5% of the population tops. Can he be more specific about the other 95%? Depending on how "working class" is defined, I may be 100% behind this sentiment or 100% against it.

Jon King

(1,910 posts)
24. He never said millonaires.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 03:27 PM
Oct 2021

He said billionaires and corporations. Obviously he is not talking about high salaried engineers and IT managers. Many may have net worths in the millions.

He is talking about the richest of the rich and the large corporations. Biden and Bernie have clearly said that they would not touch any family making under $400000/year.

Beastly Boy

(9,228 posts)
25. Your post begs for even more definitions.
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 06:06 PM
Oct 2021

Is it the working class or people making less than $400k? Does it matter if people within the 400K margin are working class or non-working class, and if it does, what is the distinction as far as far as the government delivering for them? If Bernie is not talking about the well to do engineers and IT managers making over 400K, what are the government's obligation to deliver to them as working class? What are "large corporations" as opposed to "small corporations" with respect to government delivering to them? None at all, or do small corporations fit under his definition of the "working class"? Will net income of $400K make them such? If the definition of the billionaire class is net worth of $1 billion or more, what are the government's obligations to deliver to people like Trump whose net worth is likely to be negative? Finally, what are the rules that govern the processes of defining all of the above, who has the authority to clarify all the above definitions and on what grounds?

This is what I mean: Bernie's definitions of "working class" and "billionaire class" are too fuzzy and outdated, they don't bring any clarity to what he imagines the government's role to be as far as delivering. With so many important matters remaining unarticulated, the concept of a government delivering to someone so poorly defined remains pretty far out and hard to imagine indeed.

bucolic_frolic

(43,027 posts)
27. It would be difficult
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 09:06 PM
Oct 2021

because the whole system is built on competition and legal authority. That's why prices are so high relative to labor.

You think $15 wages will change the system? $20? $25? Think again. They just raise prices as they have always done in recessions and booms so as to maintain profits. Earn more, pay more.

The only time workers get a break relative to prices or inflation is during depression or with fierce competition. Then prices fall. Workers make progress - if they still have a job. The Great Recession was a great time to buy a house. Just like now is a lousy time from the perspective of price.

ymetca

(1,182 posts)
29. I like Bernie, but
Sat Oct 2, 2021, 10:27 PM
Oct 2021

it's the "and not just corporations and the billionaire class" part I find annoying.

Just? How 'bout we "just" start PUNISHING the corporations and the billionaire class that are, quite literally, killing us in mass numbers, day after day, every day?

How 'bout we "just" start putting them in jail?

Maybe "just" start with that?

Once again, if I stole a hundred dollars from the bank, but I only had to pay back $20 if I got caught, I WOULD NEVER STOP ROBBING BANKS!

Geez, Bernie... In order to achieve a more just society we first have to impose justice on those who lie, cheat, steal, and kill in that society. Quit sugar-coating it, like this is some kind of "best practices" pursuit. Oy vey!

It's EAT THE RICH or die tryin'. Don't you get that? What happened to you, man?

Until I see LIQUIDATION GOING OUT OF BUSINESS signs on the likes of CitiGroup, and Chase, and Wells Fargo, and a WHOLE lot of other monstrosities of corporate graft, I'm gonna be a little bit wary of anything coming out of Congress these days.

Until then, I'm going to act just like rich people do, and say, "Where's all that money you stole from me, asshole?" Get it? We're PISSED out here!

Here endeth the rant. Whew! That felt.. just.

Aussie105

(5,315 posts)
30. In some countries . . .
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 06:53 AM
Oct 2021

politicians aren't allowed to accept gifts of any sort from any other person or entity, for any reason.
That includes gifts like bottles of wine from a visiting dignitary.

After all, it may constitute bribery - you know, that late night phone call . . . "We donated $X million to your campaign to get you elected. Now it's time to earn your pay! This is how we want you to vote on (topic)"

Time you guys in America stopped the 'campaign fund donations', aka bribery, post haste!



George II

(67,782 posts)
38. In the US the limit for accepting gifts is something like $1000 total per year. That allows things..
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 04:24 PM
Oct 2021

...like in-state athletic teams to give their representatives or senators things like jerseys or autographed baseballs, etc.

However, they are NOT permitted to accept contributions of any "$X amount", not even a dime. Any campaign fund donations are illegal.

Roisin Ni Fiachra

(2,574 posts)
32. It's a pretty far out concept to conservative Democrats as well.
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 07:58 AM
Oct 2021

We either find a way to vote Republicans and conservative Democrats out of Congress and replace them with progressive Democrats, or democracy in the United States will die, and fascist authoritarianism will take its place.

When you have *Democrats* in the Senate playing the long game specifically to be there in order to prevent building a democratic government that delivers for working class folks, it is impossible to build a government of, by, and for the People.

Shame on any Democrat who works with Trump, McConnell, and the Republican party to bring about fascism in the US. I don't need to name them because everyone already knows who they are, and all of them are Benedict Arnold.

Why is there even a Blue Dog Coalition in the House? The answer to this question is self-evident. Hint: in reality, it has nothing at all to do with fiscal responsibility.

Vinca

(50,236 posts)
33. Governing (politics) is a get-rich-quick scheme. How else did Sinema go from a
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 08:02 AM
Oct 2021

net worth of $35,000 to being a millionaire in such a short time? While there are a few decent individuals working for the people, way too many are only concerned with how often they wet their beaks and how much they wet them.

George II

(67,782 posts)
40. That's a false story going around Twitter. Sinema did NOT go from a net worth of $35,000 to....
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 04:31 PM
Oct 2021

....millionaire in any amount of time.

Mr.Bill

(24,228 posts)
54. Most republicans in Congress
Sun Oct 3, 2021, 07:16 PM
Oct 2021

are probably completely baffled by a guy like Bernie Sanders who doesn't spend every minute of every day trying to steal everything he can get his hands on like they do.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What if -- and stick with...