To the handful of DUers who haven't figured this out yet:

[EarlG]

This discussion thread was locked by EarlG (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

If you're confused about any of the following:

Trans people can get pregnant?!?
But what about biology?!?
How does the whole genitals thing work?!?
Isn't this bathroom thing complicated?!?
What about sports?!?
Uh... chromosomes?!?
In my day it was he and she, what's with all these pronouns?!?
Maybe Dave Chappelle had a point...?!?

...then please go somewhere else on the Internet to work through your confusion, and come back when you're ready to support your fellow trans DUers. DU is not the place to "just ask questions" or "have the right to your opinion" about how you, non-trans person, feel about the existence of trans people, or how their existence should be defined.

If you're serving on a Jury for a potential anti-trans post and you don't understand the issues under discussion, but think you might want to vote to leave the post because this whole thing is "still up for debate," please just back out of that Jury and let someone else take a look. Note that "transphobia" is, and always has been, explicitly listed as one of the categories under the "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule. If you don't know what transphobia is:

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/whats-transphobia

There are many other resources available on the Internet where you can educate yourself about trans people. Again, if you are feeling confusion about any of this, please go educate yourself, rather than trying to work through your confusion here.

https://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people

While I'm on the subject, please knock off the "Lindsey Graham is gay/a woman" jokes. Most of you have figured this out by now, and DU Juries actually have a pretty solid track record of removing these posts, but you know what would be even better? If we didn't have to send such bigoted "jokes" to Juries in the first place.

Thanks for reading.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Thank you

You won't find a bigger fan of Dave Chappelle than me. I've met the guy - and he's warm and kind.

But on this - he's wrong. Full stop. He's wrong.

[2Gingersnaps]

74. He's wrong on the misogyny too,

full disclosure, he is from my home town. People in Yellow Springs by and large are cool, and let Dave live and let live. He is brilliant. I've seen him there, gave him his space. Note to Dave and others, the poster is absolutely correct. Good rule of thumb, if someone is born any skin shade, any gender, with a disability, or is nonbinary (cause yeah, born that way)-it is off limits for belittling humor. No one has a choice in the circumstance of their birth. Crappy person is a choice-open season.

Love the guy most of the time, and, shock and surprise some women are shitty human beings-it isn't their gender that made them that way. Second class citizenship since the beginning of time might have a little to do with that.

[Lokilooney]

185. On Dave Chappelle...

There is one bit on 'The Closer' that seems to be...overlooked shall we say.

&ab_channel=ProfessorPopcorn

Sometimes things are not always as black and white as the dueling narratives want you to believe.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

188. And what everyone defending this bit fail to get...

is that during this "touching tribute", Chappelle deadnames, misgenders and misidentifies Daphne ("good father".) Even while "paying tribute" to his "dear, late friend", he still can't hide the bigotry and transphobia he feels for an entire community.

No. It hasn't been overlooked by the LGBTQ community. Not in the least. We're all fully aware of what he said, and how he said it. Every word of it. We aren't "touched", we're hurt and angered over Chappelle playing the "my one trans friend" card - not unlike racists and their "one black friend."

Daphne's own roommate typed up a very lengthy post on Facebook (that's now hidden because she had to hide her profile) that was shared on Twitter that basically basically tears into this "tribute", says how empty and phony it is, and makes it clear that Chappelle was no friend to Daphne or the trans community.

It's the stuff like this that pushed the issue to the boiling point here in DU. Person after person telling us we have to listen, we have to see this, we have to understand that... Yet the same consideration isn't shown in return. When we say "This is hateful" and "That is cruel" and call out the phoniness and cruelty in this very "tribute", we're ignored, we're told to go to the corner, whatever.

Heck, I just had to alert on a reply to me in another thread by the same person going on about "biology." This person has been doing so for days. This despite EarlG's very post and this very thread.

But going back to this: The LGBTQ community has heard it all before when it's come to Chappelle and being expected to not rain on everyone's comedy special. The real question is, when do we get heard and understood on why this is so offense to us?

[IngridsLittleAngel]

189. Melissa Dahn sharing Daphne's roommate's post about Chapplle...

Link to tweet

[NullTuples]

191. Not the refutation you think it is. Not even close.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

192. No. It's not.

And in fact, the more I think about it after the last few weeks, and especially after my own two replies above: Not only was this no tribute, this was Chappelle taking a deceased trans woman and using her to bludgeon the trans community.

As someone who has been bludgeoned enough over the years by someone no longer alive (my late partner, no less), I find what Chappelle did here disgusting. No. Not disgusting. That's not a strong enough word. Though, I draw a blank right now trying to come up with the proper word.

[JustAnotherGen]

202. I watched

One thing I really LOVED in it - was him calling out the Hollywood MeToo 'movement'. He has a right to say a lot about 'standing up for oneself' because as he stated -

He got the off the bus.

[stonecutter357]

2. K&R

[Elessar Zappa]

3. Yes.

Thanks for this great post and thank you for running DU, the best site for Democrats on the internet.

[Cracklin Charlie]

41. +1!

The best!

[MineralMan]

4. Thanks!

[BeckyDem]

5. 5 stars.

Thank you.

[lillypaddle]

6. Preach!

Take 'em to church, EarlG!

[MrModerate]

7. Excuse me, but as a general rule, sincere requests for enlightenment should be respected.

And many people DO consider the information available on DU to be part of their political and social information network.

Maybe this IS one of the places people wanting to inform themselves could come.

[irisblue]

12. How about this idea, if a POC person says, that is a racist statement Mr Moderate, you go Oh!

Take your self around the internet, learn a bit more, then come back. To continue the discussion with an open ear and mind and believe what is told to you by another DUer

[MrModerate]

19. I dunno. That doesn't look like open discussion to me.

Not that DU is supposed to be a primary school for sorting out one's liberal/progressive beliefs. But still a lot of the topics discussed here of interest to DUers are of interest because they're outside the person's immediate experience.

I'm not sure that resentment is the best response to a request for someone else's insight.

[irisblue]

38. Tell you what, I'm going to suggest you look up SeaLioning

And them DM me this afternoon, say after 3

[MrModerate]

42. Never heard of sealioning before. Ain't the internet grand?

And yes, such techniques are rhetorically bogus and frequently even disruptive.

My point is that there are such things as innocent questions. Sincere ones. The OP's intensity seemed to preclude them.

[EarlG]

60. People who are genuinely asking innocent, sincere questions shouldn't have a problem

Someone may get angry with them, in which case they'll have learned that their question was out of bounds.

A Jury may remove their post, in which case they'll have learned that their question was out of bounds.

Or someone may provide them with a sincere answer to their sincere question.

If they were really genuinely sincere about gaining knowledge, then all of these outcomes should be useful to them.

If they want to get the third outcome instead of the first two, they should educate themselves elsewhere before even attempting to ask their question. That's why I provided links in my OP.

[obamanut2012]

53. BINGO

[irisblue]

68. And that was a real time example right there

'Flagged for Review'

[George II]

75. I doubt you'll be getting that DU Mail!

[demmiblue]

76. Lol!

I have a few of the sea lions on ignore. They also tend to travel in packs, so there are times I can only see a small percentage of replies.


EDIT: Oh, my... FFR!

[hlthe2b]

78. I love this old cartoon that illustrates the concept so well...

and yeah, we have a few that live to do so here.

[billh58]

137. Actually, that cartoon

is where the term "sealioning" came from.

The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

[hlthe2b]

138. Yes... that's why I posted it. Perfect.

and I KNOW we've ALL dealt with people who argue like this.

[billh58]

139. Thanks

for posting.

[ibegurpard]

158. Textbook case here

[obamanut2012]

51. Should we have open discussion about why a man can rape his wife?

Or why we shouldn't teach the Bell Curve?

We don't have "open discussion" about bigotry.

JFC just stop. It is so damned offensive.

[obamanut2012]

62. lol

I see you. From the start. I will now, with a click, no longer see you, and no longer allow you to use me in your game.

[AllTooEasy]

102. AWFUL Example!!! POC don't universally agree on what is racist

...so taking oneself "around the internet" won't help. If YOU did some research "around the internet", YOU would have figured that out 20 years ago. Just accepting one member of minority's claim as bigoted is absolutely moronic.

I'm 3/4 Black and 1/4 Native American. I've seen Native American friends and family members verbally argue and physically tussle (women too!) over whether Washington's NFL team's former nick-name is racist...which I believe it is. All of them are Dems. My liberal Blacks family members & friends frequently discuss/argue definitions and examples of racism. One stupid-ass Brutha (High School alum) posted on FB that the NFL Draft was just like slavery. REALLY?! So, you would just accepted that statement if a POC like me posted that crap on DU??? You wouldn't ask any questions??? You would "go around the internet", learn about how drafted players:

1) Don't see their mothers raped in front of them, or get raped themselves, by masta'
2) Aren't exclusively POC
3) Are given a rare opportunity to make ATLEAST $660,000/year to do what they love and have worked for their Entire lives
4) Aren't permanently ripped from from their family members, with no lines of communication
5) Aren't whipped and beaten for looking for at masta's daughter, or any other White woman

...and so on and so on and THEN you would Still come back to DU with an "open ear and mind", and believe that that idiot (who just happened to be Black) posted on DU.

Yeah, OK

Having an "open mind" doesn't mean having a "lazy, gullible mind".

[irisblue]

103. Did you see any where in my post this..."POC don't universally agree on what is racist"

Didn't write that

[Johnny2X2X]

14. Agree

No one knows everything. As someone who has a very close friend who is transitioning, I've had questions get answered here respectfully. DU is a great resource for this type of thing IMO.

[Doodley]

15. Very good point. It's news to me too that we can't ask questions here.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

186. Bullshit. You were arguing the point AND hiding behind your "kid" to do so.

[Elessar Zappa]

16. A lot of the posts he's talking about

are outright anti-trans and have no place on this website.

[Elessar Zappa]

26. Arguing

against Trans women in sports IS anti-trans and the posts should be deleted. If you didn’t know that, then consider yourself educated.

[obamanut2012]

54. YES

[Sur Zobra]

95. Why?

Do you know anything about the reason for Title IX?

[obamanut2012]

97. Trans women are women

Trans girls are girls.

They are covered by Title IX. Saying they aren't is transphobic.

Period.

[Celerity]

105. Transgender students protected at school by Title IX, Department of Education says

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/06/16/transgender-students-school-title-ix-education-department/7715053002/

The rights of transgender and gay students are protected at school by Title IX, President Joe Biden's administration said Wednesday, reversing GOP-authored guidance that said those students were not protected by any federal laws.

The announcement from the Department of Education comes not only during Pride Month, but also during a national debate over whether transgender athletes should be allowed to compete in sports that match their gender identities. Such debates have prompted a wave of anti-trans legislation from GOP-led state legislatures.

“Today, the Department makes clear that all students – including LGBTQ+ students –deserve the opportunity to learn and thrive in schools that are free from discrimination,” Education Secretary Miguel Cardona said in a statement. “The Supreme Court has upheld the right for LGBTQ+ people to live and work without fear of harassment, exclusion, and discrimination – and our LGBTQ+ students have the same rights and deserve the same protections."

The interpretation of the law reverses guidance issued under former President Donald Trump. That administration, in turn, had rescinded guidelines that said Title IX applied to discrimination based on gender identity.

[Elessar Zappa]

130. Yes, I know about Title 9.

And trans women would be covered under it.

[MrModerate]

24. But isn't that a different problem than what EarlG is describing?

[demmiblue]

28. From the few I've seen... yep. n/t

[mopinko]

25. you can do that by reading and keeping your mouth shut.

this place has a tos. read it, follow it, and everything is good.
and if you wouldnt ask those kind of question of a stranger in real life, dont ask them here.

how hard is that?

[MrModerate]

30. Yeah. I'd reread that TOS if I were you. n/t

[obamanut2012]

55. She doesn't need to n/t

[EarlG]

27. And maybe it isn't

There's a big difference between just asking questions because you're really, sincerely curious about trans people and the trans community, and "just asking questions" because it's a convenient framework for starting an argument in which you can get away with pushing bigotry on others.

If people really want to educate themselves they can get started with the links I posted in my OP.

[MrModerate]

36. Agreed. Baiting people is bad, full stop. And your links are helpful. Thanks.

Unfortunately, sincere expressions of unknowingness are also regarded as offensive by some people. And I'm seeing some hostility in this thread.

[Caliman73]

85. This is the problem with sincere expressions of unknowingness...

When you have had to defend your very existence and identity for as long as you can remember, it becomes difficult to distinguish sincerity from JAQing off and trolling. This is especially difficult on an anonymous internet forum.

I would suggest that you watch some videos on YouTube by Contrapoints - Natalie Wynn and Philosophy Tube - Abigail Thorn. They are both trans YouTube presenters who have degrees in philosophy and speak to a great deal of issues.

[yardwork]

194. Thank you, Earl, for this excellent summation!

In just a few words, you nailed it.

[Takket]

33. THIS

I can’t think of a better place for someone seeking enlightenment on communities they are not a part of (e.g. a cis person wanting to know about LGBTQ issues so they can support) than DU.

The internet has a wealth of information too outside DU but is also has a lot of disinformation traps designed to capture and radicalize people too (e.g anti-covid vax bullshit).

People need to do research. I did my own when a loved one came out as non binary and I don’t like this implication that if you want info on something like what non-binary is that it is somehow offensive to ask about it in DU???

[FreeState]

115. While this is a good place to get answers

It’s worth noting it is not the oppressed minorities job to continually educate others. However asking questions that are really excuses for transphobia are what Earl is talking about here - not sincere questions.

As a long time LGBT poster here I’m glad to see transphobia addressed head on - it’s been a constant issue on DU.

[obamanut2012]

49. How about not asking it cloaked in bigotry, okay?

How about asking for good resources about this subject. I do not respect sincere requests for enlightment that are bigoted, because they aren't sincere.

[obamanut2012]

56. uh huh

[radical noodle]

50. It really isn't discussion that we might need...

it's education. Discussion indicates raising different points of view. There are no more "other sides" to this subject than there are other sides of the Holocaust. Many of us do need the education, though, as many people are not all that familiar with the subject as yet.

[MrModerate]

61. So, maybe the response to an innocent/ignorant question is: "Check out these links"...

Not "get out of here, you evil troll."

[RobinA]

207. That Would Be One Response

But if the point is to have everybody on here march in step, the correct response is, indeed, "get out of here, you evil troll."

[LeftInTX]

177. I agree

[Devil Child]

71. Agreed n/t

[wryter2000]

116. Excuse me

Enlighten yourself. It isn't the responsibility of a trans person to teach you.

[ibegurpard]

157. And... case in point

[irisblue]

8. Thank you Earl G

[hlthe2b]

9. Agree. There is a lot of catching up to do in society, but I'd like to think DUers would be

more informed and enlightened (or at least educate themselves with sincere, respectful questions because I agree there is a place for that as well).


That said, medicine has not caught up to a lot of issues. I can't tell you how many physician colleagues still preach that trans men can't become pregnant because they are on testosterone supplementation and who tell their patients the latter has a "sterilizing" or menopause-inducing effect. They can and do. And if physicians (not only older ones) are confused, I can assure you the general public is beyond uninformed on this issue.

[peacefreak2.0]

10. Thank you.

Well said.

[Hortensis]

11. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..."

Liberalism.

There's some more about everyone being endowed with the right to "pursuit of happiness," and other unspecified rights. Thomas Jefferson and others who signed this were of course aware that peple came in more than two genders who oriented only to the other.

Thanks, EarlG.

Liberalism in action.

[Hortensis]

211. Strange reaction to our Declaration of Independence.

It's not exactly inappropriate to speak of what have always been our most basic, and quintessentially liberal, principles. At any time and very notably in this thread.

And DU is "an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats..." Where if not here?

[Doodley]

13. I fully support trans people. That means that I recognize that there are many issues that

need to be resolved that put trans people, especially very young trans people in vulnerable positions without the support needed in making a change.

[Doodley]

17. What does this mean? Are you implying Lindsey Graham is gay?

"While I'm on the subject, please knock off the "Lindsey Graham is gay/a woman" jokes. Most of you have figured this out by now.."

[Elessar Zappa]

22. No.

He’s clearly saying most DUers have figured out to stop making Lindsey Graham gay jokes.

[twodogsbarking]

18. He is a Graham Cracker.

How is that?

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

21. Well said, thank you.

A much needed, and greatly appreciated, post. Bookmarking.

[demmiblue]

23. Amen! I saw a little bit of this, but my ignore list is healthy...

so I think I missed a lot of it (regarding the team TERFer, aka Dave Chappelle). How disappointing.

I always alert on/hide the Lindsey Graham "jokes".

Yes, do this:

If you're serving on a Jury for a potential anti-trans post and you don't understand the issues under discussion, but think you might want to vote to leave the post because this whole thing is "still up for debate," please just back out of that Jury and let someone else take a look. Note that "transphobia" is, and always has been, explicitly listed as one of the categories under the "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule. If you don't know what transphobia is:

Honestly, I think there may be a small segment who actually do understand the issue, but... I had a couple of hides years ago for calling out a certain prolific poster for her transphobia regarding trans folks using public restrooms. It was ugly.

[obamanut2012]

58. I remember that exact exchange(s)

[Tree-Hugger]

198. I wonder

....if it was the same person who positively lost her shit because I used the word "TERF."

[Cozmo]

29. Sorry with was necessary for you to post this, but so glad you did Thanks

[luvtheGWN]

31. Several years ago (17 to be exact),

a brilliant neuroscientist colleague, just before Christmas, told me that when he came back in January, he would from then on be referred to as female. Fortunately, his first name was such that all he had to do was add an "e" and slightly change the pronunciation.

Needless to say, this came as quite a shock to all of us. But happy to say that not one person questioned him, nor did I ever hear any snide remarks behind his back.

It took awhile to remember to refer to the former "him" as a "her", but we did. We got used to "her" dressing as a female, and it wasn't long before we couldn't really remember (or want to) her before the change.

Personal matters (religion, politics, income, gender preference etc.) are just that: PERSONAL. It's no business of mine to question or complain or criticize someone else's personal matter. Unless it's people who refuse to get vaccinated........

[FreepFryer]

32. Thank you! DU has some really nasty discriminatory anti trans content, from a few users. (Nt)

[Ms. Toad]

143. Who repeatedly insist that it's not transphobic. n/t

[Wild blueberry]

34. Thank you

[MuseRider]

35. Thank you EarlG

These issues should be understood and the answers are easy to find on the Internet. Too many times you can just tell instantly that a poster is instigating a long and very sad discussion when they ask a question that is easily answered by a search.

Thank you, this really needed your attention.

[Handler]

37. I agree with bulk of what you have to say however

To demand that we are not ask questions and seek enlightenment here is a bit shortsighted.
Marching in lockstep with their leaders is in large part the problem with conservatives IMHO.
Respectful questions should always be welcome on a platform of free thinking individuals.
No disrespect intended.

[EarlG]

45. "Respectful questions" being the operative phrase

Since a lot of people don't seem to know how to ask "respectful questions" I've provided links in my OP so that they can educate themselves FIRST. Then, if they still have questions, they'll know how to ask them respectfully.

[wryter2000]

119. As a cis het white person

I generally find I learn plenty simply by listening and reading. I don't have to make a trans person (as one example) do the work for me. It's not their responsibility to make things right. It's mine.

[cate94]

39. Thanks

Great post and good links. Thanks for all you do.

[Metatron]

40. Thank you so much for addressing the issue head on.

I went ahead and renewed my DU membership earlier than I planned because of this.

[DFW]

43. Unfortunately....

"Get a life" is still not enforceable in a court of law, which is why you had to post this in the first place.

[IrishAfricanAmerican]

44. Thank you, EarlG!

Needed to be said.

[obamanut2012]

47. Thank you so much, Earl

I have been so appalled and disgusted by the Rowling and Chapelle support and agreement with TERF garbage.

It has almost made me just leave DU forever. So much hate and bigotry allowed to run unheeded and unchecked.

Thank you, again. Thank you. Standing up for this may literally save lives.

[BlackSkimmer]

113. I was amazed by the support I saw here recently for Chappelle's bigoted comments.

I shouldn’t have been surprised however.

[wryter2000]

120. I was also amazed at all the support Cuomo got here

There were OPs asking for speculation about who had set him up. Assuming all the women were lying at the direction of some Republican who wanted to do the governor in. In essence, calling them all lying bitches.

[BlackSkimmer]

150. Yes, I remember that.

I took a long break, but occasionally came in to read. And was immediately reassured at my decision to take a break.

[Tree-Hugger]

199. Same

I took a break during that period. It's not just Cuomo, either.

[obamanut2012]

121. That and Rowling's support shocked me

How much there was, how dismissive they were of us.

[blogslug]

48. kick

[Hugin]

64. My philosophy on the matter...

Which has served me well.

Storming these people with questions serves no one. Because it is new and different to you doesn't mean it is to them. In most cases they've been asking themselves these same questions endlessly for years and in many cases their entire lives. The answer they've arrived at is that their so-called gender is inconsistent with who they are and they want or have begun to reconcile the issue. I will help them in any way I can.

Does this mean I don't have questions? No, it does not. I am a curious human. But, leave the individuals alone. As EarlG says, there's plenty of other channels (some reputable and others not so much) to slake your desire to know.

Does this mean someone should shun them out of fear of offence or discomfort to one's own world view? No, certainly not! For most of these people the identity question has been so all consuming they've had most of the rest of who they are lay fallow and unexamined the entire time. From experience, I can tell you, once they have internalized the solution and are acting on it. They will interact your ear off as they explore who they are and want to be.

Trust me on this, though. Should you be lucky enough to have the privilege of having earned the trust of a transgendered person. One day, they may come to you with a question related to gender issues. If this rarity happens, please, do your best to answer honestly, discreetly, and openly. In the answer you may very well learn quite a bit about... yourself.

[Pinback]

65. Thank you.

It’s up to all of us to fight bigotry in all its forms.

[MontanaMama]

66. Kick.

Wish I could rec this more than once. And I must say that Lindsey Graham is offensive in so many ways having absolutely nothing to do with his sexuality. I would love to never have to alert a post referencing it again.

[mcar]

67. Kick!

[BumRushDaShow]

69. Glad this was said!

[PunkinPi]

70. K&R, thank you, EarlG.

[Spazito]

72. Thank you!

[marble falls]

73. Hear! Hear!

And this one especially: ""Lindsey Graham is gay/a woman" jokes." It trivializes the struggle for gays and women to be taken seriously.

[bluestarone]

77. A big KICK

For a GREAT post!

[ShazamIam]

79. I appreciate the post, I think I a different adjective than trans would help, claim seems to be the

decision, to claim ones identity, not transfer it, which seems to indicate a conscious choice about an inherent identity.
However, by any name I support the reality that we arrive in many manifestations but are always all human.

[Ms. Toad]

144. It has nothing to do with transferring identity

It means your gender identity is different than the sex you were assigned at birth. (Cis means it is the same as you were assigned at birth.)

[ShazamIam]

212. I appreciate the feedback, I don't think at the heat of it we disagree and the one thing I am firmly

certain of, is the absolute right to equality in politics, economics and the national, cultural standards for all.

[NullTuples]

168. Seriously, you are going to wander in and suggest trans people stop using "trans"?

Please do everyone a favor before typing another word. Go look up why we use the word trans. Learn the term's origin history and current meaning. It's really quite simple, there's not much to it, and you will hopefully become a better person for it.

[ShazamIam]

206. Thank you kindly for you view, I stated why and what my idea is. I don't mind disagreement and I

further don't think we have solved the semantics and linguistic issues and I hope we all keep working on the reality of the human experience, I am a career marketing person, getting products and ideas accepted is part of my game and language counts.

[NullTuples]

208. This isn't just just a "disagreement" about two equal opinions thrown out on a whim.

It is a trans person telling you to stop appropriating.

The nomenclature is not your call, nor are your "suggestions for improvement" appreciated, as you are doing so from a position of privilege and ignorance.

Please understand; what you are doing is offensive.

[ShazamIam]

210. My aim is to further understanding and acceptance, and opinions are always subjective and facts

only what is verified by all observers. You are providing me with your opinion of my opinion. Thanks again.

[ShazamIam]

215. Curious question though I admit I have spent a lot of recent years trying to learn exactly what it

means to be human a human capable of accepting all humans at that beginning, the what that makes us human.

[ShazzieB]

173. And I think that trans people should be called what they want to be called. How about that?

I don't really see why you (or I, or any other cis person should have a vote on what trans people call themselves. In fact, I think we should butt the hell out.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

80. Thank you

[Solly Mack]

81. K&R

[Zeitghost]

82. So

Are gay men and women who are not attracted to/will not date trans men and women now open for criticism for their "transphobia"? Or maybe, just maybe, there are some issues to be hashed out with polite discussion and being able to question certain points of view without being shouted down.

[EarlG]

88. Interesting hypothetical topic you describe there

Is there currently a big problem on DU with gay men and women who are not attracted to trans men and women being "shouted down" instead of being allowed to "hash out" these issues with "polite discussion" so they can "question certain points of view?"

[Zeitghost]

96. I have seen the issue brought up here

It is an issue and I have seen it brought up here in one of the Chappelle threads and elsewhere on the web.


I don't know how prevalent that position is in the trans-community, but it exists. And I think talking it out is a good thing.

[Sympthsical]

125. It's not a hypothetical. It's our lives.

Lesbians get harassed on dating sites because of it. It’s called the Cotton Ceiling, and it is deeply sexist and misogynistic. Furthermore, it erodes the very idea of immutable orientation. Our sexuality suddenly becomes a choice or is dictated by society.

If you have no experience with it, great.

As a gay man, I’ve seen it. It is a topic much discussed in the LGBT community.

LG people who only want to date cis gender, because of our own orientation are indeed called transphobic. Often.

Is that conversation here forbidden?

[EarlG]

134. If you want to have that conversation on DU

go re-read my OP and see if you think anything in there applies to the way you might carry it out.

[yardwork]

196. This is news to me, as a lesbian.

However, I'm a married boomer so I don't know anything about online dating sites.

At the risk of sounding like an old boomer, can I ask why people participate on toxic internet sites where they're being harassed? There's a lot of unhealthy stuff on the internet. Why would people subject themselves to abuse?

Honestly, this worries me. People have so much to contend with in life - especially right now - the thought of hateful trolls harassing people sounds awful.

[yardwork]

195. As a lesbian, I'm curious about why you singled out gay people in this question?

Why is your theoretical question aimed at "gay men and women" and not everybody?

And, when have people's personal dating choices resulted in condemnation for bigotry? If a person is attracted to dark-haired people, are they routinely criticized for not dating blondes?

I wasn't aware this was an issue.

[Chautauquas]

83. Thank you, EarlG

What you said needed to be said, and you said it well. Now if we could also get people to stop making "funny" and hateful comments about prison rape.

[Ms. Toad]

145. Agreed. n/t

[LakeArenal]

84. As someone who has asked a question I thought respectful and was removed...

Get over it. If a jury takes a question as offensive but you didn’t mean it that way, get over it. Learn something about the way to ask questions. One hide has never killed anyone. Almost all of us have had one.

[frogmarch]

86. K&R!

[Lady Freedom Returns]

87. What is there to figure out?

Trans men are men. Trans women are women. Pretty cut and dry.

[LeftInTX]

122. The terminology has been "fluid" from the MSM.

I called everyone transgender, but 10 years ago Chas Bono transitioned from female to male. They said he wasn't transgender but was trans man and that transgender was reserved for men who were identifying/transitioning/transitioned as female. (I heard that on CNN and it did not make sense) I still consider both to be transgender, but the person on CNN confused me.

Although many of us have acquaintances within the trans community, most of us don't have in-depth relationships and we aren't properly schooled.

[NullTuples]

171. As a trans person...I have never, not once heard that particular distinction from our community.

Perhaps you mis-heard or mis-understood?

There was a time period many years ago when the language was shifting from transwoman & transman to trans woman & trans man. I'm fairly sure it was a bit more than ten years ago, though maybe not by much (it's been a long pandemic and time has lost all meaning). The point was that we are not third and fourth genders (man, woman, transman, transwoman) but rather, "trans" is a descriptor, an adjective. Thus a trans man, akin to a short man or a tall man, etc..

[LeftInTX]

174. I heard it on CNN...maybe I misheard, I don't know...

Maybe the person did not explain it correctly. It left me scratching my head....

[LeftInTX]

178. Opps...the mainstream media did not use the world "fluid"...

I used it meaning that the media itself has been fluid...(changing)

Someone asked if Chas was transgender and the speaker said, Chas was trans man and that the term transgender was reserved for some born male who now identifies as female

But it left me scratching my head because I was like, "Aren't they both transgender?"....
sigh........

[NullTuples]

180. Yes, that is quite bewildering.

[BobTheSubgenius]

89. Paraphrasing Morgan Freeman:

"You're not transphobic. You're not afraid, you're just an asshole."

[LiberalFighter]

90. Good information for the rest of us too to help understand better.

[Voltaire2]

91. Thanks!

Now please consider undoing the post removals inflicted on those of us who complained about the stunning transphobia in that thread.

Thanks again.

[obamanut2012]

98. And in other threads

I was attacked in more than one Rowling and women in sports threads over the past few months.

It is insane.

[FreeState]

128. Structural bias

Unfortunately that’s what’s happening here - the very structure of community voting creates a message to LGBT to not engage or you will be punished.

[Ms. Toad]

147. I raised that very issue

when this version of DU was in beta stage, when it removed the ability to add an explanation, and in response to the announcement of the next version of DU.

It never works out well when the majority is allowed to vote on minority rights/voices.

[obamanut2012]

164. It worked

I quit engaging.

[ismnotwasm]

92. THANK YOU!!!!!

[TygrBright]

93. Thanks, EarlG. Proud to be DUer. n/t

[Vogon_Glory]

94. Re: Lindsey Graham Jokes

I don’t think I’ve made any Lindsey Graham jokes accusing him of being gay or a woman. I’m acquainted with some pretty tough, self-confident gay males and I think we’ve all seen some very tough women. I wouldn’t insult them by comparing them to shameless, groveling, lying weenies like what’s-his-name.

[greatauntoftriplets]

100. Bravo!

[RFCalifornia]

101. My thought in all of this is why do people care what one does with their own body?

If you want to be called a man, you're a man

If you want to be called a woman, you're a woman

If you want to be called something else, you're that

I don't care what's between your legs

I have the decency to treat you with respect

Besides, isn't America supposed to be about "rugged individuality"?

[Tommymac]

104. Awesome OP. Thank You!

[Hekate]

106. Bookmarked. Needs to be pinned somewhere if it's not already. Thank you, EarG. nt

[Demsrule86]

107. Thank you EarlG. I consider it bigotry pure and simple-both the trans issue and the Lindsey Graham

stuff as well

[I_UndergroundPanther]

108. Thanks

This transgendered guy is pissed off that
people cant get over it and let us be.

People can be so invasive,rude and bigoted at transpeople.

The same insufferable bullshit happens to
Non binaries,furries and intersexed people as well.

[gademocrat7]

109. K&R!

[wendyb-NC]

110. Thank you

[riversedge]

111. #thankyou

[spanone]

112. K&R

[wryter2000]

114. May I also add

Prison rape isn't funny.

[BlackSkimmer]

117. This.

Absolutely.

[demmiblue]

118. +1

[obamanut2012]

123. cosign

[Initech]

124. Agreed!

[MustLoveBeagles]

153. +1

[Tree-Hugger]

200. +1 nt

[FakeNoose]

126. Thank you EarlG - this needs to be said

... and you're the guy to say it.

DU isn't the place to be bashing anyone for their personal choices. I feel it's not my choice, it's not my business what other people choose. AND I don't want to get into waste-of-time arguments about it on DU either.

[NullTuples]

172. How in the world did you manage to slip in that you think it's a choice, that many times?

[ShazzieB]

175. Yeah, really.

Inappropriate imo.

[TeamProg]

127. Aggression is fueled by fear. In this case, it's the fear of one's own sexuality that some are

afraid of - even David Chappelle.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

129. Thank you...

I and many others of the LGBTQ community are beyond grateful for your post and this official position on all of these issues.

[jaxexpat]

131. The OP pokes a stick into the bloated roadside carcass of bigotry.

Is one allowed to ask why it can't simply be left for the vultures?

[IngridsLittleAngel]

132. As one of the people who might've fanned a few flames, I wanna touch on "questions"

Respectful questions: Many of us can tell the difference between a person wanting to ask questions to better understand, or a person asking loaded questions and/or trying to start a debate. I don't think most people have an issue with someone asking honest, respectful questions to better understand.

"My life has been a quest for knowledge and understanding, and I'm nowhere near having achieved that." - Alex Trebek

I'm about as pasty-white as someone can get. No, I don't mean that in a Proud Boy/KKK sort of way. I mean thanks to heritage and genetics and agoraphobia, I'm frighteningly light-skinned. I have no understanding of what it is like to be a person of color in this country, even though many of my friends are people of color. Despite our different backgrounds and different lives and different appearances, they are fundamentally the same as me, and I truly value having them in my lives.

I've never grown up in a project, as some of them have. Or been pulled over for DWB, like some of them - even while working and driving a company vehicle. Or been told "Go back where you came from!", which even my late partner heard more than once (she was from Puerto Rico). When they've told me about these experiences, I've listened. Maybe I ask a follow-up question because I don't fully understand, or, wish to understand more. But that's the thing: The listening, the asking, it's solely about understanding. It's about getting to know what makes them who they are. It's about having more to go off of than "Shut up, asshole! You're fucked up!" when Drumpf and his Qult spew their hatred and bigotry and racism. I have a deeper understanding of the in-your-face racism of the MF45 era than just "That's not right!"

But never once have I tried to put them on the spot, or make them feel they have to defend themselves to me. Never once has it been about a debate. Never once have I replied to any of their unfortunate experiences with "Maybe you should have..."

Jeff Pearlman interviewed Amy Grant a number of years ago on his blog, and asked her about things like marriage equality, LGBTQ rights, etc. And she said something that stuck with me, something that would make the world a better place if everyone did so. "When I don't understand something, I prefer to substitute ignorance with compassion."

No one's perfect. I recently had a friend call me out for saying I hope Brian Laundrie is "gator bait". I'd had no idea the term was racist until he told me - along with the history of it. Once he told me, I thought about it for a few seconds and said "I'm sorry. I'll never use that term again." I then asked "Gator Chow okay?", to which he laughed and said "Go for it. That's a good one!" But I was able to understand that "bait" is wrong because I listened to him instead of trying to spin it into a debate.

So asking questions? Sure, if you want to understand people better. I have no idea what it is like to be anyone but me. I don't have their experiences, or their scars. I never will. I'm not them. But by asking, and listening, I hope to better understand and maybe be able to imagine all of this in my head. Or feel it in my heart.

But be respectful. If they say they feel like they're being put on the spot, back off. If they say they're offended or hurt by something, understand that. There's enough about this world that sucks - natural disasters, disease, death, hatred. No one needs more hurt.

But the most important thing? Listen. If a woman speaks up about running into sexual harassment, listen. If a black person says "That joke's racist", listen. And when the LGBTQ community was saying, then yelling, and finally screaming, about how cruel and hateful Chappelle's "jokes" were, listen. Make an effort to understand. Don't tell the woman "Maybe you should've dressed differently" or tell the people genuinely hurt over "jokes" how to feel, nor use it as an opportunity to debate and attack.

Life's been bad enough the last six years for everyone but the white straight cisgendered male. We can "thank" Drumpf and the QOP and Drumpf's Fan Qlub and even the media for it, for trying to turn everything into a debate and talking about "both sides". Many of us that are here are here to fight back against it, to beat the QOP, and to feel safe and accepted - whether we're black or Jewish, whether we're healthy or disabled, whether gay or straight, whether cis or trans - or a combination of the above.

Understanding goes a long way. Want to understand? Then ask and read and listen.

But a little compassion goes a long way too. No matter how much or how little I understand, I don't judge anyone whose actions cause no harm to others.

Be excellent to each other, as Bill and Ted said more than once.

[Beartracks]

159. This is an incredible post, and probably should be an OP itself.

============

[yardwork]

197. This is awesome! "Don't put people on the spot." There it is.

It's a simple test. If you're hearing from a person who is describing their experience, are you asking questions to understand better, or are you asking questions designed to put them on the spot, intimidate them, make them feel demeaned.

Bingo. That's it. Thank you.

[calimary]

133. Sir, yes sir.

Thanks for posting this, EarlG. Needs to be said.

[Scrivener7]

135. I do love you.

[billh58]

136. I've never understood

why people of any color, creed, sexual orientation, or any characteristic other than being a human, is germane to my interaction with that person. All of these things have no bearing on whether or not I would choose a person for a friend, and certainly wouldn't affect my view of an individual.

If someone is rational and sociable they are most often good people. If a person is an asshole, there is usually no fix for that and I avoid them.

[Kali]

140. LOL at the selfimportant examples that just have to show their asses

IN A THREAD STARTED BY ADMIN.

[Ms. Toad]

141. THANK YOU!!! And now that we have your attention,

Your perception about the track record of juries here, and that of most members of the LGBT community who hang out here, are almost night and day apart. When I alert, I consider it a win if I don't get a 24-hour alert time-out. The vast majority of the time, the post remains.

Is there a way we can send transphobic/homophobic posts your way when the juries don't hide them so that you can (now that you have made a clear statement they should be hidden)?

[obamanut2012]

152. 100% second all of this

[Kaleva]

166. What is a 24-hour alert time out? Never heard of it.

[Ms. Toad]

170. If you alert on a post

and the vote goes against you 7-0, you are blocked from alerting for 24 hours.

Think about that: I'm alerting on posts that are just like the ones EarlG is saying do not belong here and all 7 jurors saw nothing wrong with them. And it's bad enoug that I'm relieved when there is even 1 vote to hide.

That's what EarlG describes as a "pretty solid track record of removing these posts." Those of us making the alerts think it is a good result when we earn the suport of the equivalent of 14% of DU.

[Kaleva]

203. Thanks! I didn't know that.

I alerted on one post in this thread and apparently since I didn't get a message that I've been placed on 24 hour alert hold, at least one juror agreed with me.

[Ms. Toad]

216. You don't get a message,

unless you alert on another post within the 24 hours - then an alert comes up that you've been put in the alert time-out corner.

Since posts like those referred to by EarlG tend to come in bunches, I often alert on more than one in the thread.

[hlthe2b]

222. Yes. But not limited to homophobia/transphobia. Blatant misogynistic posts have long been similar in

resultant jury outcomes. Maybe with time, it will get better, but... after 20 years we still see many thinking the worst insult they can throw at our opponents is to use a gender-based slur (among other things).

[Ms. Toad]

224. Agreed as to misogynistic posts.

I don't have much hope it will change, but I am going to bookmark EarlG's post so I can just dump a quote in the thread, rather than having to get all agitated because it feels as if we have no support.

Obnoxious post: We're just pointing out the hipocrisy!

My response will be: Well, according to EarlG:

While I'm on the subject, please knock off the "Lindsey Graham is gay/a woman" jokes. Most of you have figured this out by now, and DU Juries actually have a pretty solid track record of removing these posts, but you know what would be even better? If we didn't have to send such bigoted "jokes" to Juries in the first place.

https://democraticunderground.com/100215969127

[Patton French]

142. Well said, EarlG

I have no idea how this could be even romotely controversial.

[Silent3]

146. While we're at it, accusations of small penis size shouldn't be the go-to way of...

...of describing and insulting all men who exhibit objectionable behavior.

Apparently, perfectly decent men who happen to have small penises aren't supposed to be bothered by this, because, you know, they should know it's nothing personal, the insults are just about obnoxious compensatory behavior, no matter how much of a sneering tone is used when jokes and jibes are made about tiny dicks and micropenises.

A lot of DUers staunchy defend this form of insult, however. They really, really don't want to let go of dick joke ammunition.

[Ms. Toad]

148. Agreed. n/t

[MustLoveBeagles]

154. I agree

It's cruel.

[Scrivener7]

161. That really has nothing to do with this thread.

[hlthe2b]

223. agree.

[al bupp]

149. Hell, fucking, yes /nt

[Skittles]

151. OUTSTANDING POST

THANK YOU

[MustLoveBeagles]

155. Thank you

[Duncan Grant]

156. Cracking great move, EarlG.

Thank you.

[Joe Nation]

160. Dude, I have three family members that are trans and you are vastly oversimplifying the issue.

The internet is one of the worst sources of information and it is especially bad for the younger trans community. Have you even looked at the rates of autism that are statically elevated in the trans community? I think that you would be shocked to know how prevalent autism is and how it affects the behavior of trans kids. Here is a few highlights from one study:

Highlights

•Results suggest substantial overlap between autism and transgender identity.

•Overlap may be greater in trans men than trans women.

•Depression and anxiety were highest in autistic-trans individuals.

Kids on the spectrum already feel alone and vulnerable and once they wonder into a trans online community, they suddenly feel accepted and while they may or may not be trans, they have an entire community telling them what they can do to get what they want even telling their parents that if they don't pay for surgery, they will kill themselves. Advice like this is dangerous.

I love and support each of my transgendered relative unlike some of the people in their families. They are struggling and need guidance and sometimes that guidance is either denied or goes overboard. I have a 26-year old nephew/niece that has been trans for over ten years and has come to the realization that they were guided by online communities of trans supporters and in fact, never were trans to begin with. Mind you, there have already been a few surgeries at this point. This young person is extremely autistic and was bullied as a child. They are currently transitioning back to a male.

This is just far more complicated than your tirade has indicated. You should not shut down people when they have genuine questions.

[obamanut2012]

165. Tirade?!

Literal whoooshhhhhhh.

[FreeState]

169. Here is a good article for anyone interested

Here is a good article for anyone interested: https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/amp/

6-8 times more likely.

That being said this has nothing to do with with what Earl was addressing - he’s not saying don’t ask questions he’s saying don’t use questions to excuse bigotry among other things.

[NullTuples]

182. Please note that spectrumnews is run by an anti-autistic organization

Their goal is to eradiate autistic people by finding a "cure" for what is really just a variation of humanity. Also please note that I'm referring to Spectrum news, not the study or paper cited.

Ironically, Joe was doing exactly what Earl was addressing, it was just carefully caged as concern trolling.

[FreeState]

183. That's not true

They do not advocate for a cure. They advocate for understanding of the science and a moped dialog of that science. Anyone here can read the site and see it’s lower reviewed Accor rigid articles about ABA and autism.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/about/

This still has zero to do with what Earl posted.

[NullTuples]

190. They are solely funded by the Simons Foundation

Who in turn has as one of their goals the development of "treatments" for autism.

We are just neurologically different, not defective. We are not a disease to be treated.

[Joe Nation]

213. Thanks for the article

Yes, I agree with Earl that some people will use questions to excuse bigotry, but, that is also an opportunity to address the bigotry not an opportunity to shut them down and let them go on the merry way as bigoted as ever. Not all who pose unenlightened questions are bigots. Some are just uninformed.

I have learned much through my contact with my trans relatives over the years. Things I didn't know only came through questioning and learning. The older generation has been the most difficult to convince in my experience but some can be very accepting once you explain it to them. They often sound very bigoted initially but they can also be the warmest people once they understand.

I think the OP does a disservice to anyone genuinely interested in learning about the trans community. And they may ask what seems like dumb or insulting questions. I know that there are trolls but they shouldn't dictate the breadth of the conversation nor should we help them do so by limiting what kind of questions are tolerable. That is all I am saying.

[NullTuples]

181. Dude, you aren't trans or autistic. Your concern trolling / sealioning is not at all appreciated.

The, "autistic kids aren't trans, they're just confused or manipulated" trope is highly offensive to both groups. As is you calling the OP's posting a "tirade".

As you may well know Joe, this transphobic trope was started around 2016-2017 by a small group of anti-trans activists, including Kenneth Zucker. He's best known for having his CAMH "gender clinic" shut down due to too many trans kids being abused. He briefly became the darling of the Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria crowd that strove to convince the public that trans kids did not actually exist. In 2017 he was on a UK show that was intended to spread their damaging message. UK TERFs, GC and especially ROGD parents ate it up like candy. They wanted to convince people that their tween & young teen kids - some of which were also autistics - "suddenly" became trans when they started hanging out with - gasp! - other trans and nonbinary kids. Therefore, they said, it must be a social contagion! And autistics despite having difficulties with neurotypical social interactions, magically absorbed that contagion through social interaction!

The truth of the matter is, trans people and autistic people do share a significant overlap in their populations. But really all this does is reinforce that both are due to atypical neurologies. Neurologies which at this point have been well documented for decades. Please note that I did not say "dysfunctional" or anything similar. It's quite clear by now that both groups are simply different from most people, not defective. And as I said, they highly overlap. This is not at all surprising within trans & nonbinary communities. The last trans health conference I attended pre-pandemic had a wealth of autistic accommodations as recognition of the overlap. It was not seen as surprising, or new. Only appreciated by most attendees.

I'll be honest, your comment reeks of TERF-ness.

Signed,
The trans & autistic parent of a trans & autistic teen, who has done her research on both topics.

[obamanut2012]

193. I agree about what reeks

I am shocked that post is still standing tbh. Very, very offensive.

[FreeState]

204. The poster is anti-ABA

They are basically the anti-vax of ASD.

[obamanut2012]

217. Ahhhh

Explains it. Thanks.

[NullTuples]

219. ABA is gay conversion therapy adapted for autistics

Ole Ivar Lovaas created & popularized both in a short span of time during a boom of therapies based on Blank Slate Theory.

It was a few decades before neurology had the tools to prove that neither was actually a collection of learned behaviors to be unlearned, but by then entire industries had spawned.

Please listen to people who are autistic &/or LGBTQ and have been subjected to them.

https://nsadvocate.org/2018/07/11/treating-autism-as-a-problem-the-connection-between-gay-conversion-therapy-and-aba/

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2021/03/man-behind-ex-gay-conversion-therapy-started-trying-make-autistic-children-normal/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328400705_Disturbing_Behaviours_Ole_Ivar_Lovaas_and_the_Queer_History_of_Autism_Science

[Kaleva]

205. I alerted on it yesterday.

[Joe Nation]

218. At no point did I say that trans kids are just autistic.

The fact that some kids with autism are convinced that they are trans is undeniable. I don't know the actual numbers, because I doubt they exist, of kids on the autism spectrum identifying as trans. I do know that my nephew feels like he was sucked into the online trans community because he was lonely and bullied as a child. It isn't that all trans kids have autism but I'd venture to guess that there are many kids that are autistic that are being groomed by online trans forums into thinking that they are trans. I have a case in my own family of exactly that.

You know who helped him along the way in his decision to identify as trans? His mother. I know parents are going to do everything they can for the children. What parent wouldn't? But we live in a different world these days and it is not out of the question for outside, online communities to have more influence over a young mind than even the parents have.

BTW "Groomed" was the word he used, not me.

[NullTuples]

220. C'mon this is really, really getting offensive! Please stop.

Last edited Fri Oct 22, 2021, 06:20 PM - Edit history (1)

You: "I'd venture to guess that there are many kids that are autistic that are being groomed by online trans forums into thinking that they are trans. "

This is all pure ROGD / CG bullsh*t rhetoric. Please stop.

You are not trans, nor autistic and you have no idea what you are talking about.



Edit: And to answer your question later in this thread:

I am an autistic. Married to an autistic. Our kids are autistics, too. We celebrate our autism; it is simply who we are.

I've studied the history of how psych conceptualizes autistics, and have kept up with current research in psych, but more so in fields like neurology and genetics. When possible, I speak in person (or more recently, via email) to researchers who've published in the field, as well as health care practitioners. I am also an active member of the adult autistic community, as well as the community of parents of autistic kids who realize their kids are just different, not defective.

I am also a trans woman, as is one of my children. I don't know that we celebrate our transness; it is simply who we are.

I've studied the history of how psych conceptualizes trans people, and have kept up with current research in psych, but more so in fields like neurology, genetics & endocrinology. When possible, I speak in person (or more recently, via email) to researchers who've published in the field, as well as health care practitioners. I am also an active member of the adult trans community, as well as the community of parents of trans kids who realize their kids are just different, not defective.

[Joe Nation]

221. But you ARE trans and autistic?

What makes you think that you are some kind of authority? I'd really like to know. What makes you think that you know what you are talking about and nobody else does?

[Ohio Joe]

162. K & R - nt

[BidenRocks]

163. If anyone makes it this far down......

Many times, it's not what you ask, it's how you ask.
Sincere questioning, IMO are usually given education.
Others? Not so much.
Over 60 and have met many. Always positive.

[obamanut2012]

167. Yup, this is often true

[Orangepeel]

176. 👏👏👏

[jcgoldie]

179. Respect.

[icymist]

184. Thank you for this.

[Tree-Hugger]

201. Kick!

[obamanut2012]

225. Kicking to remind posters of what EarlG said

Maybe we can actually make posters abide by this for a change.

[IngridsLittleAngel]

226. Kicking...

Because half a year later, there's still a handful or two who haven't figured this out...