This new delay is not on the progressives or Biden at all, it is all on Manchin and Sinema.

[Celerity]

They are the ones who are still playing games and refusing to say that they are 100% all in on the already massively reduced BBB framework.

Given Manchin and Sinema's game-playing and obstructionist history, and their HUGE overall 2 bill slashing of Biden's proposals (including removing entire giant, key programmes that were cornerstone Biden campaign promises) it is no wonder many other Dems do not trust those two.

The progressives months and months and months ago compromised and came down from a 2 bill total for new spending of $10 trillion to match Biden's $6.1 trillion total 2 bill proposals.

They watched and accepted the BIF get absolutely gutted by Manchin and Sinema, with almost 80% of Biden's new spend shredded out ($2.6 trillion slashed to $550 billion, the other $650 billion is simply renewals of transportation programmes that have been around since Obama and Trump), and now have accepted another massive gutting of the BBB, literally slashed in half, from $3.5 trillion down to $1.75 trillion.

That stripping includes massive cornerstone programmes/central Biden campaign promises like Family And Medical Leave, Tuition Free Community College, Dental/Vison coverage for Medicare, a tonne of wealth taxes and high earner taxes (Trumps tax cuts are still largely left intact) and Prescription Drug Price Negotiation savings, etc etc all now ripped out and tossed in the bin.

Manchin and Sinema have 'compromised' a grand total of $250 billion between the the two bills. They have also stripped out what is closing in on 2/3rds of Biden's new spend between the 2 bills.

Biden and the progs and most of the rest of the Dem caucus have compromised 15.2 TIMES MORE in terms of total new spend dollars let go than Manchin and Sinema have allowed to be increased, a total of $3.8 trillion in cuts. The progs have let go of 30.8 TIMES the amount of Manchin and Sinema's 'compromising' if you look at the original proposals they laid out early in year.

The progs (and Biden and almost all of the rest of the Dems) have given in and given in, and still Manchin and Sinema are playing games. The progressives had done nothing but try and get BIDEN'S agenda passed as much as is possible.

No amount of spin and blame-shifting can change those simple mathematical facts and the actions by the two obstructionists.

[FoxNewsSucks]

1. One certainly wonders

who those two are really working for. It's obviously not the public, the country, the Democratic presiden or the Democratic Party.

[LenaBaby61]

2. THIS 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[Celerity]

5. I am still waiting for someone to explain how stripping out massive entire parts and programmes

Last edited Fri Oct 29, 2021, 03:57 AM - Edit history (1)

of a President who campaigned on those very same programmes, and won a crushing popular vote victory by making them central campaign promises us a legit way for certain congressional members to win their races 3 years from now, all whilst knee-capping Biden and most of the rest of the entire Dem caucus in 2022 and 2024.

Do Manchin and Sinema actually think that shredding and binning entire programmes that have MASSIVE approval rates amongst Dems, independents and even some Rethugs will help them and the rest of the party?

ALL of these are extremely popular, all were central Biden agenda and campaign promises:

Family And Medical Leave

Tuition Free Community College

Dental/Vison coverage for Medicare

Prescription Drug Price Negotiation savings

Many of the high earner high income high wealth taxes


Yet out into the trash they have gone, courtesy of Manchin and Sinema, whilst leaving many of the odious Trump tax cuts intact.

Makes zero sense if your objective is to actually help your constituents, and get the Party re-elected plus increase our majorities.

All you need to do is look at the insane gap in net Dem popularity (it was around 140 points net last time I checked) between Kelly and Sinema to see that it is madness.

[Wanderlust988]

20. You keep harping about what's NOT in the bill, but not talking about what's actually IN the bill

Also, it's offensive to act like the bills aren't worth a damn cause it doesn't include everything Biden wanted. Why don't you visit Flint or Benton Harbor, MI and tell them poor people who are drinking water from lead pipes how there's nothing good in the bills? This all or nothing attitude is killing out party. Progressives are all about progress. We keep moving forward. Take what you can get now and work in getting 2 more Dem senators in 2022 and then pass more stuff.

[Celerity]

22. I was making a specific point, a specific question. I never said the bill as is was not worth a damn

That is you projecting a false frame on to me.

There are many great things about the BBB Act left. I simply agree with many in the House and Senate (and Biden for ages) that it's madness to pass the BIF without some sort of concrete framework agreement for the BBB from the two obstructionist Dem Senators, Manchin and Sinema, who as of the time I left for my office this morning (it is 10 39 am now) had still refused to commit fully to the framework.

Give up the BIF leverage for nothing and the BBB immediately is tossed into the Manchinema danger zone, perhaps for further slashing, or even a revival of Manchin's wish to put the whole thing off until 2022.

Also, this

This all or nothing attitude is killing out party.

Is utter dross, if you are trying to accuse me of harbouring such sentiment or positing such a template for any action.

I have shown in great detail exactly the massive amounts Biden and the rest, including the progressives, have already willingly compromised, FAR more (15.2 times more using Biden's proposals numbers, which the progs agreed to 4, 5 months ago, and 30.8 times more using their own original topline) than Sinema and Manchin.

It is ludicrous to try and pin an 'all or nothing' label on a group (the progs) who have willingly accepted massive cuts already. ($3.8 trillion in accepted cuts from Biden's number for both bills, and a jaw dropping $7.7 trillion in cut acceptance from their initial proposals).

Manchin and Sinema are the actual 'all or nothings'. All their massive cuts must prevail, and almost nothing need be given back by them in return.

They are the actual purity testers, it just is a purity test of 'slash as much as is humanly possible when it comes to things they deem being in need of a haircut', a feigned sacrifice to some imaginary god of 'moderatism'.

'Moderate' is just a spin job word for prioritising some programmes and policies over others, almost always via programmatic manoeuvres favoured by the core of corporate systemic control.



My original question was very clear.

How does stripping out giant swathes of Biden's agenda, entire programmes that were the core of his candidacy and that are extremely popular with the very voters (yes even in good old West Virginia) we need to win, in any way, shape, or form an efficacious move?

[onecaliberal]

3. Classic delay, string out negotiations, Dems give up a lot and then cons don't vote for it anyway.

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

19. Sounds like the GQP playbook for the Affordable Care Act.

Of course, the Repugs didn't have the benefit of having S&M to help them that time. This time they've been able to sit back and let those two miscreants do their work for them.

How the f*ck can these two even call themselves Democrats if they don't support traditional party priorities, which focus on helping the middle class and poor?

[onecaliberal]

23. Especially when they all agreed at the start of the session on policy priorities.

Read last night that oil executives admitted to meeting with senators while these negotiations are going on so essentially they’re dictating what we get. It’s fucking pathetic that we allow people to kill legitimate legislation to help actual people.

[dpibel]

4. No, no, no

The progressives are spoiling the whole thing by demanding all or nothing.

Have you not been paying attention to the wise voices here?

[Celerity]

6. compromising (dollar-wise) 15.2 times (if you use the Biden numbers they support) more than

Manchin and Sinema have (and 30.8 times more if you take the progs original proposals) sure is a funny way to define 'all or nothing' or 'purity test!'. Also that is saying Biden is guilty of 'purity tests' as well as those are HIS numbers and programmes that the progressives have been trying to get passed.

The progressives have not once said no to Biden's proposals and compromises with these 2 bills. Manchin and Sinema have done nothing much but take axes to his agenda across a truly breath-taking front, often whilst refusing to say for months what exactly (especially Sinema) they actually wanted to support.

[ColinC]

9. I sense that the commenter you are responding to actually agrees with you and was being sarcastic

[Celerity]

10. yes, I know

[Celerity]

12. just so you know, I am agreeing with you, and know your were being sarcastic

[dpibel]

14. Strange world, isn't it

where the line between ironic and earnest is so hard to find.

I got that you got me.

[oasis]

7. Credit two Dems for crafting the "No Billioniare Left Behind" portion of the law.

[ColinC]

8. How heartless to think that the billionaires should need to reduce their yacht fleet by a life raft.

[moniss]

13. There is

also the very real possibility that Manchin and Sinema simply "agree" to this "framework" and then a vote is taken in the House on both bills. The infrastructure bill then goes to Biden for signature and the BBB bill goes over to the Senate to be voted on. Manchin and Sinema can then screw the bill by claiming they've "changed" their mind or that somehow it is now not what they had understood and agreed upon. The Senate Parliamentarian has yet to look at this and give approval either. That's another way for this very diminished "victory" to get even worse. I have zero trust in anything that comes out of the mouth of either Manchin or Sinema. I don't think either one cares about going back on their word because they will have a cozy landing in the GQP along with many millions for the rest of their lives from the big donors.

[Celerity]

15. The total for the BBB is actually $1.85 trillion, but that includes $100 billion for immigration

reform that almost all on telly today said will be not allowed by the Parliamentarian.

I think all the rest is hopefully ok.

If not, then all hell is going to break loose and Harris would have to overrule the Parliamentarian, which is not so likely to happen.

That Byrd Rule needs to be binned, same as the filibuster does.

[liberalmediaaddict]

21. I'm afraid you're right about how this plays out

Going by Manchsinema's past behavior I see them dragging their feet on the budget reconciliation bill indefinitely.

[Eyeball_Kid]

16. Both have ruined their political futures.

Neither spoke any part of the truth when defending their tactics. They lied to their voters. This was all about feeding the corporate cash cow for them. Who gave them the most money and adornments (like speaking engagements, speeches, etc.)? What are those donors' most profitable businesses/investments? Answer those two questions and you'll find that these two Senators are taking orders in exchange for money.

[RainCaster]

17. Their futures are assured

They have been 100% effective for their corporate donors. The pharma & petro industries have received a very positive return on their investments.

Unless the DNC gets serious about replacing them ASAP, they will be there for another term. Or more.

[Celerity]

18. The real tell was Sinema nuking the Prescription Drug Price Negotiation piece

right after she got shedloads of cash and adverts from Big Pharma.

That part was not a spend, it was FUNDING side, a huge savings of closing in on half a trillion USD.

Absolutely NO way to claim that you care about the 'too high of a cost' for the BBB bill and then rip out a huge funding piece that makes it $400-450 billion MORE expensive on net.

Raw naked influence peddling by Big Pharma.

[bluewater]

25. K&R