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Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:51 PM

Romney won't accept a popular vote win / EC loss

State legislatures have to power to choose the electors who choose the president, no matter who wins the election in that state. See Bush V. Gore. The Supreme Court ruled that state legislatures have plenary (plenary authority refers to the complete power of a governing body) power to choose electors. If Romney wants to flip the EC result, he could use the 36 GOP state legislatures to select a winning slate.

Would the GOP do such an outrageous thing? In 2000, Bush had a secret plan to contest the election if he won the popular vote but lost the EC. Also in 2000, in Florida, the GOP state legislature declared that if Gore won the recount that they would still give the election to Bush. I heard no complaints from anyone about that. If the GOP tried to do it this time, they'd find some way to justify it to their voters, which wouldn't be hard, since they accept subverting democratic ideals below their own agenda. See voter ID laws. The GOP would just say that the founding fathers left the power of state legislatures to choose electors for just such a situation.

From Bush V. Gore:

" The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the Electoral College. U. S. Const., Art. II, 1. This is the source for the statement in McPherson v. Blacker, 146 U. S. 1, 35 (1892), that the State legislature's power to select the manner for appointing electors is plenary; it may, if it so chooses, select the electors itself, which indeed was the manner used by State legislatures in several States for many years after the Framing of our Constitution. Id., at 28-33. History has now favored the voter, and in each of the several States the citizens themselves vote for Presidential electors. When the state legislature vests the right to vote for President in its people, the right to vote as the legislature has prescribed is fundamental; and one source of its fundamental nature lies in the equal weight accorded to each vote and the equal dignity owed to each voter. The State, of course, after granting the franchise in the special context of Article II, can take back the power to appoint electors. See id., at 35 ("here is no doubt of the right of the legislature to resume the power at any time, for it can neither be taken away nor abdicated" (quoting S. Rep. No. 395, 43d Cong., 1st Sess.)."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=00-949

Bush's secret plan:

"So what if Gore wins such crucial battleground states as Florida, Michigan and Pennsylvania and thus captures the magic 270 electoral votes while Bush wins the overall nationwide popular vote?

"The one thing we don't do is roll over," says a Bush aide. "We fight."

How? The core of the emerging Bush strategy assumes a popular uprising, stoked by the Bushies themselves, of course.

In league with the campaign - which is preparing talking points about the Electoral College's essential unfairness - a massive talk-radio operation would be encouraged. "We'd have ads, too," says a Bush aide, "and I think you can count on the media to fuel the thing big-time. Even papers that supported Gore might turn against him because the will of the people will have been thwarted."

Local business leaders will be urged to lobby their customers, the clergy will be asked to speak up for the popular will and Team Bush will enlist as many Democrats as possible to scream as loud as they can. "You think 'Democrats for Democracy' would be a catchy term for them?" asks a Bush adviser.

The universe of people who would be targeted by this insurrection is small - the 538 currently anonymous folks called electors, people chosen by the campaigns and their state party organizations as a reward for their service over the years."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2000-11-01/news/18145743_1_electoral-votes-popular-vote-bush-aide

23 replies, 5238 views

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 23 replies Author Time Post
Reply Romney won't accept a popular vote win / EC loss (Original post)
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 OP
BlueStreak Oct 2012 #1
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #12
BlueStreak Oct 2012 #13
sharp_stick Oct 2012 #2
skeewee08 Oct 2012 #3
regnaD kciN Oct 2012 #4
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #11
PDJane Oct 2012 #5
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #10
Andy823 Oct 2012 #6
onenote Oct 2012 #7
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #9
onenote Oct 2012 #15
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #16
HopeHoops Oct 2012 #8
LisaL Oct 2012 #14
Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #19
RagAss Oct 2012 #17
Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #18
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #20
Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #21
creeksneakers2 Oct 2012 #22
Proud Liberal Dem Oct 2012 #23

Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:57 PM

1. I don't think that would happen

 

regardless of the legalities.

What could happen is significant vote tampering in the likely places (Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania). But if the states publish they have gone for Obama, I can't believe our media is so far lost that they would stand aside while the rules of the election are changed before our eyes to elect Romney.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:42 PM

12. The media doesn't have a vote

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 08:15 PM

13. Changing the rules in the middle of the game requires media compliance

 

Rove et al wouldn't come right out and say they are changing the rules. The crooks would probably work behind the scenes to get the electoral votes turned around. Ultimately the media would have to agree with that or at least agree to look the other way.

We have a horrible media today. But I can't believe they have fallen to that point.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:58 PM

2. Too bad for bush and rmoney

that the thing went the other way and shrubbo got the Supreme Court to select him. I'd say it's pretty much settled law at this point.

The Electoral College is a useless anachronism but without a Constitutional Amendment to abolish it, one that I would whole-heartedly support, it's not going anywhere.

If you're interested in seeing where the blockage would come from to stop such an amendment all you have to do is look to the States with low populations that way out-weigh their actual electoral power. Places like Wyoming, Utah, Montana, The Dakotas and a lot of other really red States.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:58 PM

3. I don't think he's going

to win popular vote

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 06:59 PM

4. I'd think it would be a lot harder to stir up a "popular uprising" over a PV/EV split this time...

...since most voters would recall full well that those same Republicans didn't have a problem with the "unfairness" of it in 2000.

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:41 PM

11. GOP voters would buy it

They always do.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:02 PM

5. All this means is that they will try to steal the election.

Again. And if they don't succeed, they'll to litigate it. And they have the money to tie it up endlessly or until everyone gives up and gives him the presidency. I hope that it doesn't happen. I hope that they can't suppress the vote enough to make everyone stay away. I hope that Obama gets a landslide.

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Response to PDJane (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:41 PM

10. I agree

If its close, they'll contest it.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:07 PM

6. Honestly

I don't think the powers that be in the republican party want Romney in the WH. Karl Rove is a Bush hand puppet, he wants to put Jeb in office in 2016, if Romney won, no matter how he did it, that would mean no Jeb in 2016, and then in 2020 Ryan would be running so again, no Jeb.

If the republican really want to have a shot at the WH this year, I really don't think they would have let all the "clowns" in that ran in the primaries this year. Not only is Jeb getting ready for 2016, but so is Chris Cristie and we already hear him out building himself up for the 2016 race!

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:21 PM

7. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to do in many, if not most, states

First, despite the OP's unqualified declaration, its utter speculation that romney would attempt an end-around if he lost in the electoral college but won the nationwide popular vote. Second, the state legislature would have to pass a retroactive law changing the way the presidential electors are chosen in the narrow window between November 8 and January 3. Moreover, it is my understanding that in some instances, the method of selecting presidential electors is enshrined in the state constitution, not just an act of the state legislature, which would make changing the methodology during the window between November 8 and January 3 virtually impossible.

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Response to onenote (Reply #7)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:39 PM

9. True its my speculation

But its also based on my observation that Romney will do absolutely anything to win. Also, Romney shares the same advisers Bush had. Interesting point about state constitutions, but it could be argued the federal one supersedes and it gives the power "at any time." Anyway, it would go to court, like it did last time. Who won that time?

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct..."

Article 2 section 1.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 09:12 PM

15. Legislatures can't act unilaterally

All states have laws (and/or constitutional provisions) directing how electors get chosen. To alter that requires a new law, passed by the legislature (and/or an amendment to the state constitution enacted pursuant the rules for doing so set forth in that state's constitution). So it would take further action by the state legislature to change, retroactively, the way that its electors are chosen.

Also, I'm not sure where you are coming up with 36 as the number of state legislatures that would be in play. This would only be a possibility in those states in which both houses of the state legislature are controlled by the republicans, where there is a republican governor, and the state didn't go to romney in the presidential election.

There are probably only a half dozen states that currently meet those criteria although the number could change after November 8. The states that would be in play, assuming that they actually do go to Obama, would be Virginia (although it has an evenly divided state senate), Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maine, Michigan and Florida. Keep in mind that the state legislature and the state's governor would have to decide to defy the popular will of their own constituents and try to move the state's electors from the Obama column to the Romney column. Pretty good way to destroy your political career. Hell, if they were willing to defy what a majority of the voters in their state wanted, why would they care what the rest of the country decided. Why wouldn't they change the rules and have their electors go for Romney even if Obama won the popular vote?

In the long run, the repubs aren't going to mess with the electoral college because they can see the writing on the wall -- the trends in the popular vote, particularly a fast growing Latino population -- aren't in their favor when it comes to fashioning popular electoral majorities.

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Response to onenote (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 12:11 AM

16. I skimmed the Pennsylvania constitution

Nothing in there about choosing electors. There's probably a law, but that could be changed very quickly. That's 20 EVs. If Romney wins the popular vote, the electoral vote would be at least close. 20 EVs could flip it.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 07:24 PM

8. I'm in favor of a straight popular vote. Fuck the EC - it's time is over. It's bullshit.

 

Part of the reason it is bullshit is that each state determines how to deal with the EC - winner takes all or proportional. We've got instant information transfer now. Fuck the EC and just use popular vote. That will move us from a "democratic republic" to a true "democracy".

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2012, 08:18 PM

14. You can't play the game by a set of rules, then claim you won it by a different set of rules.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 01:57 PM

19. Exactly

no way would this stand.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 12:12 AM

17. The streets will burn.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Original post)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 01:56 PM

18. Democrats would never stand for this- nor would most people IMHO

We like to complain about Dems rolling over for the Repubs but I don't see it happening in this sort of situation and- MSM or no MSM- I have enough faith left in humanity that most people, probably even most traditional Republicans would never go for this. They may be upset that Romney lost the election but most people know outright thievery when they see it. Public opinion would be on President Obama's side if Romney and his minions were to try to change things. Come to think of it, it's actually pretty amazing that they haven't already tried to do this along with their other voter disenfranchisement schemes

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #18)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 07:31 PM

20. They've already threatened to do it and nobody complained

During the 2000 election challenge, the GOP Florida state legislature promised that if the courts ordered a recount and Gore won, they were still going to give the election to Bush. Every last Republican pledged to stand behind it, and I heard nobody complain at all.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Reply #20)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 07:35 PM

21. I'm not talking about Florida Republicans

I'm speaking in a broader, national sense. It would be too much for most fair-minded people and I can't believe that such an action wouldn't provoke a REAL constitutional crisis.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #21)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 07:58 PM

22. It would only take a major state or two to change the outcome.

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Response to creeksneakers2 (Reply #22)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 10:44 PM

23. My $0.02 is that most people would not accept Romney "winning" like this

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

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