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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe monthly child tax credits have backfired on us
No one had a problem with them when it was a yearly lump sum but the monthly deal has become extremely divisive and made it seem more like a welfare payment and easy to attack. Ironically, it's made it more difficult in Congress to keep it going now the whole thing might end up going away. Was this monthly payment Bernie's idea?
I can't stand Manchin more than anyone else, but if all he was asking is for a work requirement, then we should've taken the deal. I hate that we are losing money for climate protection and Obamacare just for a work requirement for the child tax credit. BBB is so important for the future out of country and planet Earth and to let it all go by the wayside just for a work requirement for a child tax credit, seems ridiculous to me.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... then we can adjust, and fine-tune, and make corrections later.
LonePirate
(13,417 posts)You get once chance in the Senate to craft the bill you want because its impossible to change it afterwards.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Voltaire: The best is the enemy of the good.
Confucius: "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."
Shakespeare: Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.
Y'all decide. But I can guarantee you that those who adhere to and promote the all-or-nothing philosophy will always end up with nothing. Nobody ever gets everything they want.
Nixie
(16,950 posts)Attacking him from the left doesnt work on red state people. It only makes things worse.
I just read here that WV doesnt even have a Costco. I looked and theres no Trader Joes. These progressive stores do demographics and apparently theres no market for them there. Red state people are a whole different demographic.
Take what you can get and move on! Youre right
fine tune later.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... it just hardened him to the idea of any compromise at all. Look, I'm certainly no fan of his... but the name-calling and the harassment (in the parking garage and on the water, etc) that shit may make for a page-3 story (and it may get some fist-pumping responses at DU and on Twitter) but it's not an effective way to get someone to listen or change their mind. Honestly, I think the harassment and bullying actually hurt matters.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,916 posts)Seriously. Fuck that guy. HE is the problem here. Not those that correctly pointed out who he was.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(4,916 posts)Because we KNOW that is not true. We gave him his stuff and he didn't vote for it. It's not bullying to point out that he backtracked on his demands. It's just not. And your talk of bullying and harassment is, essentially, saying "poor Manchin" even if you didn't use that two-word phrase. He's the problem. I have zero sympathy for him.
And if you wish to have a Marxist vs Neo-Marxist discussion of social change, I'm fine with that, too.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)No. I didn't "essentially say" anything of the sort. That's ridiculous. Stop it. That's your interpretation and it's wrong. I told you so already, yet you continue. Why? I can certainly hold two thoughts in my head at the same time. My disapproval of the bullying and harassment "tactics" are directed at those who engage in such things. It's a stupid an ineffective thing to do. It's wrong to intentionally mischaracterize it as "sympathy" for Manchin. To continue to do so makes as much sense as accosting ME in a parking lot. It will get nowhere.
Nixie
(16,950 posts)Thats exactly what Ive been thinking and what it appears to be this is about personalities and brand building more than the money. Manchin has been totally mishandled and its played right into his hands. Attacking him from the left and harassing him has been a huge mistake. And the ones yelling the loudest are clueless as to whats really happened.
I thought that right away when they linked the two bills and forced a wait on BIF, so hes making them wait, too.
Thank you for your refreshing and realistic take on things. 👍👍👍
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and although I'm sometimes short-tempered and impatient... I'm always honest and direct.
Happy Holidays! 🎅🎄🦌🛷🤶🍷🥂🍾🍸🥃🍺🍻
Nixie
(16,950 posts)as before, mostly Brand building must be worshipped or else. But Im honest and direct, too, so they are wasting their time.
Well talk more soon! You are always the intelligent voice, but there is a constant push to dismiss reality
Happy Holidays to you, too! 🎄🎁
Shermann
(7,412 posts)Par for the political course.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... splendidly. In his mind, he may genuinely believe he's doing the "right thing". The art of compromise is convincing him otherwise, or providing enough incentive to get him to bend or change his position. I don't have all the answers, but I'm old enough to know that these impulsive ambush tactics aren't well-considered and certainly did not have the desired effect. Did they?
Shermann
(7,412 posts)Who's to say what's rattling around in there? Any such claims are unfalsifiable, and we can't even trust him on the subject.
I'm not going to play. Just do your damn job.
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)Won't work for a disabled parent living with children.
It also won't work for seniors who have stepped in to take care of their grandchildren.
I fear it would have ended up just like when they passed the 2017 Tax Scam -
One set of rules for rural white voters (no workfare requirement in their benefits) and one set of rules for non GOP Voters.
Wanderlust988
(509 posts)No one would expect a grandparent or disabled person to work.
keep_left
(1,783 posts)...and that's saying a lot when it comes to politicians. IIRC, they even came up with several different scams to discriminate between "our people" and "those people" when it came to "work requirements". It was covered extensively on DU (and Kos, etc.) at the time.
LonePirate
(13,417 posts)If someone has lost their job and they have kids, the work requirement means those people miss out and they need it more so than rolling people. Good for the WH for refusing to give in to that racist and Republican tactic of depriving funds to those in need.
Wanderlust988
(509 posts)There's a good chance no one will get it now.
Caliman73
(11,730 posts)I do not make that assumption.
If it isn't the Child Tax Credit, it would and will be something else. Manchin is not going to vote for anything that implies taking money away from the wealthy and giving it to the undeserving moochers.
Wanderlust988
(509 posts)except for the child tax credit. That was apparently the major sticking point.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,916 posts)he'll actually back it. Oh, wait, actually we know he fucking lies and changes his mind as he wishes.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)That could very well have been Manchins proposal but there is no guarantee he would have stood by it and quite a growing history to assume the contrary.
Caliman73
(11,730 posts)Manchin said that if he couldn't explain to the people of West Virginia about the bill he couldn't vote for it.
Any fool could have explained EVERY part of the bill. He did not want to explain it because he would have to explain why he was voting against something that 70% of people in West Virginia approved of. He told colleagues in the Senate that he didn't like the tax credit because he didn't trust people to use that money wisely saying that he thinks people will spend the money on drugs.
dawg
(10,624 posts)who it backfires on.
Lots of people who voted Republican last time are currently receiving those payments.
Silent3
(15,204 posts)We'll lose too many votes based on anger and disappointment over the credits people were getting for a while, then had taken away, than we'll ever gain from people voting to get those payments back again.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Unless you're just going to get the numbers from the unemployment office and rely on those (which are pretty unreliable in the sense that tons of non-working people are also not collecting UI benefits) you have to create a big new bureaucracy, and typically these end up costing as much money as they 'save'. Esp. if you're literally trying to track it monthly.
And how do you handle the self-employed?
iemanja
(53,031 posts)and then he claims the bill will lead to the deficit. Pretending there is an issue that Manchin would agree on is false. He constantly moves the goal posts.
doc03
(35,325 posts)and I hear you can get the tax credit with up to $200,000 income. That isn't pulling anyone out of poverty. Exceptions could be made for people that are unable to work. Paid family leave sounds great but I know there will be people that will
take advantage of it and use it to get a paid vacation. There has to be very strict rules in place to prevent that.
Ms. Toad
(34,062 posts)EIC was always intended to be income added to your paycheck. Most people, however treat it as forced savings and spend exhorbitant fees on refund anticipation loans to get the money which should have been theirs all along back more quickly at the end of the year.
Emile
(22,669 posts)Manchin keeps moving HIS goal posts!
Irish_Dem
(46,918 posts)It is about harming Biden and the party.
Irish_Dem
(46,918 posts)He is just grabbing at anything he can to bring down our President and party.
He is a saboteur.
If it weren't tax credits it would be something else.
lindysalsagal
(20,670 posts)stealthiest strategy. I think families will demand universal income, and call it lots of other names.
JCMach1
(27,556 posts)To torpedo it of $250 bucks a month.
Put up, or shut up Manchin
RANDYWILDMAN
(2,668 posts)let's not let rich people. keep telling poor people who get's welfare.
Walmart used to be the biggest welfare beneficiary in the us and the families who own it are 4 of the top wealthiest people in the world, which is not a coincidence
Johonny
(20,833 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)GoodRaisin
(8,922 posts)some news?
I think if it wasnt the childcare payments it would be something else. Manchin blamed this fiasco on Whitehouse staffers and said it wasnt Biden. Thats bullshit. If it was Whitehouse staffers then he could have talked to Biden directly, which would have been what a reasonable negotiator would do. Instead he takes this crap to Fox News. Thats proof hes not working in good faith and I dont believe anything he says now. Childcare tax credits are just another excuse Manchin is using. Nothing backfired on us.