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Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:39 PM

The monthly child tax credits have backfired on us

No one had a problem with them when it was a yearly lump sum but the monthly deal has become extremely divisive and made it seem more like a welfare payment and easy to attack. Ironically, it's made it more difficult in Congress to keep it going now the whole thing might end up going away. Was this monthly payment Bernie's idea?

I can't stand Manchin more than anyone else, but if all he was asking is for a work requirement, then we should've taken the deal. I hate that we are losing money for climate protection and Obamacare just for a work requirement for the child tax credit. BBB is so important for the future out of country and planet Earth and to let it all go by the wayside just for a work requirement for a child tax credit, seems ridiculous to me.

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Reply The monthly child tax credits have backfired on us (Original post)
Wanderlust988 Dec 2021 OP
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #1
LonePirate Dec 2021 #5
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #14
Nixie Dec 2021 #15
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #17
Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2021 #23
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #27
Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2021 #31
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #33
Nixie Dec 2021 #25
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #30
Nixie Dec 2021 #39
Shermann Dec 2021 #29
NurseJackie Dec 2021 #32
Shermann Dec 2021 #34
JustAnotherGen Dec 2021 #2
Wanderlust988 Dec 2021 #4
keep_left Dec 2021 #7
LonePirate Dec 2021 #3
Wanderlust988 Dec 2021 #8
Caliman73 Dec 2021 #6
Wanderlust988 Dec 2021 #10
Cuthbert Allgood Dec 2021 #24
jcgoldie Dec 2021 #26
Caliman73 Dec 2021 #35
dawg Dec 2021 #9
Silent3 Dec 2021 #13
Hugh_Lebowski Dec 2021 #11
iemanja Dec 2021 #12
doc03 Dec 2021 #16
Ms. Toad Dec 2021 #18
Emile Dec 2021 #19
Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #21
Irish_Dem Dec 2021 #20
lindysalsagal Dec 2021 #22
JCMach1 Dec 2021 #28
RANDYWILDMAN Dec 2021 #36
Johonny Dec 2021 #37
WhiskeyGrinder Dec 2021 #38
GoodRaisin Dec 2021 #40

Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:40 PM

1. We need to do what needs to be done to get it done...

... then we can adjust, and fine-tune, and make corrections later.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:49 PM

5. The Senate makes those later adjustments impossible to make.

You get once chance in the Senate to craft the bill you want because it’s impossible to change it afterwards.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:03 PM

14. Well then, let's continue to let perfect be the enemy of good.

Voltaire: “The best is the enemy of the good.”

Confucius: "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."

Shakespeare: “Striving to better, oft we mar what's well.”


Y'all decide. But I can guarantee you that those who adhere to and promote the all-or-nothing philosophy will always end up with nothing. Nobody ever gets everything they want.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:05 PM

15. Exactly! Take what you can get and move on.

Attacking him from the left doesn’t work on red state people. It only makes things worse.

I just read here that WV doesn’t even have a Costco. I looked and there’s no Trader Joe’s. These progressive stores do demographics and apparently there’s no market for them there. Red state people are a whole different demographic.

Take what you can get and move on! You’re right…fine tune later.

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Response to Nixie (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:12 PM

17. I think the constant attacks made him dig in his heels...

... it just hardened him to the idea of any compromise at all. Look, I'm certainly no fan of his... but the name-calling and the harassment (in the parking garage and on the water, etc) that shit may make for a page-3 story (and it may get some fist-pumping responses at DU and on Twitter) but it's not an effective way to get someone to listen or change their mind. Honestly, I think the harassment and bullying actually hurt matters.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:54 PM

23. Poor Manchin.

Seriously. Fuck that guy. HE is the problem here. Not those that correctly pointed out who he was.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:59 PM

27. Nobody said that (except you).

Poor Manchin.
Nobody said that (except you).

Seriously. Fuck that guy.
Okay. Fuck him all you want.

HE is the problem here.
I do not disagree.

Not those that correctly pointed out who he was.
No. The bullying and harassment served no good purpose. Peta-style ambush-harassment activism is ineffective (as we now plainly see).

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #27)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:06 PM

31. So if we gave him what he wanted he would have voted for it?

Because we KNOW that is not true. We gave him his stuff and he didn't vote for it. It's not bullying to point out that he backtracked on his demands. It's just not. And your talk of bullying and harassment is, essentially, saying "poor Manchin" even if you didn't use that two-word phrase. He's the problem. I have zero sympathy for him.

And if you wish to have a Marxist vs Neo-Marxist discussion of social change, I'm fine with that, too.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:13 PM

33. No. I didn't "essentially say" anything of the sort. That's ridiculous. Stop it.

No. I didn't "essentially say" anything of the sort. That's ridiculous. Stop it. That's your interpretation and it's wrong. I told you so already, yet you continue. Why? I can certainly hold two thoughts in my head at the same time. My disapproval of the bullying and harassment "tactics" are directed at those who engage in such things. It's a stupid an ineffective thing to do. It's wrong to intentionally mischaracterize it as "sympathy" for Manchin. To continue to do so makes as much sense as accosting ME in a parking lot. It will get nowhere.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:56 PM

25. Finally NJ! A voice of reason and reality. Finally.

That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking and what it appears to be — this is about personalities and brand building more than the money. Manchin has been totally mishandled and it’s played right into his hands. Attacking him from the left and harassing him has been a huge mistake. And the ones yelling the loudest are clueless as to what’s really happened.

I thought that right away when they linked the two bills and forced a wait on BIF, so he’s making them wait, too.

Thank you for your refreshing and realistic take on things. 👍👍👍

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Response to Nixie (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:02 PM

30. Very kind of you to say. Apparently, I get under people's skin...

... and although I'm sometimes short-tempered and impatient... I'm always honest and direct.

Happy Holidays! 🎅🎄🦌🛷🤶🍷🥂🍾🍸🥃🍺🍻

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 07:03 PM

39. I know what you mean, but I've noticed it's the same business

as before, mostly — Brand building must be worshipped or else. But I’m honest and direct, too, so they are wasting their time.

We’ll talk more soon! You are always the intelligent voice, but there is a constant push to dismiss reality……

Happy Holidays to you, too! 🎄🎁

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:01 PM

29. It's his job to always do the right thing, even while being called names

Par for the political course.

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Response to Shermann (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:06 PM

32. Perhaps so. But the bullying tactics and harassment certainly backfired...

... splendidly. In his mind, he may genuinely believe he's doing the "right thing". The art of compromise is convincing him otherwise, or providing enough incentive to get him to bend or change his position. I don't have all the answers, but I'm old enough to know that these impulsive ambush tactics aren't well-considered and certainly did not have the desired effect. Did they?

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:17 PM

34. Everyone is trying to read Manchin's mind at the moment

Who's to say what's rattling around in there? Any such claims are unfalsifiable, and we can't even trust him on the subject.

I'm not going to play. Just do your damn job.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:43 PM

2. Work requirement

Won't work for a disabled parent living with children.

It also won't work for seniors who have stepped in to take care of their grandchildren.

I fear it would have ended up just like when they passed the 2017 Tax Scam -

One set of rules for rural white voters (no workfare requirement in their benefits) and one set of rules for non GOP Voters.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:48 PM

4. I think the work requirement would be for able bodied adults

No one would expect a grandparent or disabled person to work.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:50 PM

7. Yes, that was one of the most egregious things I've ever seen...

...and that's saying a lot when it comes to politicians. IIRC, they even came up with several different scams to discriminate between "our people" and "those people" when it came to "work requirements". It was covered extensively on DU (and Kos, etc.) at the time.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:47 PM

3. The work requirement is an old racist trope that does little to address extreme poverty.

If someone has lost their job and they have kids, the work requirement means those people miss out and they need it more so than rolling people. Good for the WH for refusing to give in to that racist and Republican tactic of depriving funds to those in need.

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Response to LonePirate (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:51 PM

8. Therein lies the problem....

There's a good chance no one will get it now.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:50 PM

6. You are assuming that Manchin is negotiating, or argues in "Good Faith"

I do not make that assumption.

If it isn't the Child Tax Credit, it would and will be something else. Manchin is not going to vote for anything that implies taking money away from the wealthy and giving it to the undeserving moochers.

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Response to Caliman73 (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:52 PM

10. The WaPo said Manchin's proposal was pretty close to Biden's

except for the child tax credit. That was apparently the major sticking point.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:54 PM

24. And we all know that when he says he'll back something

he'll actually back it. Oh, wait, actually we know he fucking lies and changes his mind as he wishes.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:57 PM

26. Manchin has been moving the goalposts for months

That could very well have been Manchin’s proposal but there is no guarantee he would have stood by it and quite a growing history to assume the contrary.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:22 PM

35. The sticking point was doing anything at all for anyone except the wealthy.

Manchin said that if he couldn't explain to the people of West Virginia about the bill he couldn't vote for it.

Any fool could have explained EVERY part of the bill. He did not want to explain it because he would have to explain why he was voting against something that 70% of people in West Virginia approved of. He told colleagues in the Senate that he didn't like the tax credit because he didn't trust people to use that money wisely saying that he thinks people will spend the money on drugs.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:52 PM

9. Let's campaign on extending them and let the voters decide ...

who it backfires on.

Lots of people who voted Republican last time are currently receiving those payments.

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Response to dawg (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:59 PM

13. You are arguing based on the false premise that voters think clearly

We'll lose too many votes based on anger and disappointment over the credits people were getting for a while, then had taken away, than we'll ever gain from people voting to get those payments back again.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:56 PM

11. Let me just point out that a work requirement can add a tremendous amount of overhead costs

Unless you're just going to get the numbers from the unemployment office and rely on those (which are pretty unreliable in the sense that tons of non-working people are also not collecting UI benefits) you have to create a big new bureaucracy, and typically these end up costing as much money as they 'save'. Esp. if you're literally trying to track it monthly.

And how do you handle the self-employed?

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 02:57 PM

12. He is insisting it be for 10 years rather than 1

and then he claims the bill will lead to the deficit. Pretending there is an issue that Manchin would agree on is false. He constantly moves the goal posts.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:12 PM

16. I agree people shouldn't be given the tax credit if they are able to work

and I hear you can get the tax credit with up to $200,000 income. That isn't pulling anyone out of poverty. Exceptions could be made for people that are unable to work. Paid family leave sounds great but I know there will be people that will
take advantage of it and use it to get a paid vacation. There has to be very strict rules in place to prevent that.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:19 PM

18. Ever hear of Advance Earned Income Credit?

EIC was always intended to be income added to your paycheck. Most people, however treat it as forced savings and spend exhorbitant fees on refund anticipation loans to get the money which should have been theirs all along back more quickly at the end of the year.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:23 PM

19. If it wasn't child tax credits, it would be something else!

Manchin keeps moving HIS goal posts!

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Response to Emile (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:51 PM

21. Yes, exactly. Nothing to do with tax credits.

It is about harming Biden and the party.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:49 PM

20. No. Manchin doesn't care about child tax credits at all.

He is just grabbing at anything he can to bring down our President and party.
He is a saboteur.

If it weren't tax credits it would be something else.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 03:52 PM

22. I politely disagree. Families will remember it was Biden, the dems. It might have been his

stealthiest strategy. I think families will demand universal income, and call it lots of other names.

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:01 PM

28. Call his bluff and alter the plan. There is too much good in the plan

To torpedo it of $250 bucks a month.

Put up, or shut up Manchin

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:24 PM

36. The only problem with welfare, is welfare for poor people

let's not let rich people. keep telling poor people who get's welfare.

Walmart used to be the biggest welfare beneficiary in the us and the families who own it are 4 of the top wealthiest people in the world, which is not a coincidence

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Response to RANDYWILDMAN (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:32 PM

37. Yup

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 04:34 PM

38. Work requirement?? Oh my god no

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Response to Wanderlust988 (Original post)

Mon Dec 20, 2021, 08:22 PM

40. How did it backfire? Are you saying this just because of Manchin's bullshit or did I miss

some news?

I think if it wasn’t the childcare payments it would be something else. Manchin blamed this fiasco on “Whitehouse staffers” and said “it wasn’t Biden”. That’s bullshit. If it was Whitehouse staffers then he could have talked to Biden directly, which would have been what a reasonable negotiator would do. Instead he takes this crap to Fox News. That’s proof he’s not working in good faith and I don’t believe anything he says now. Childcare tax credits are just another excuse Manchin is using. Nothing backfired on us.

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