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Thieves in LA are looting freight trains filled with packages (Original Post) Throck Jan 2022 OP
Time for armed guards alphafemale Jan 2022 #1
We don't shoot people who steal or damage property. PTWB Jan 2022 #2
We don't? Loki Liesmith Jan 2022 #3
As a society, no, we don't. PTWB Jan 2022 #5
No, the people doing these crimes don't want to do any job . They shoot and kill minimum wage JI7 Jan 2022 #7
And just like that, crime will disappear? brooklynite Jan 2022 #8
The vast majority of crime will disappear when we fix socioeconomic injustices, yes. PTWB Jan 2022 #11
That is complete nonsense cinematicdiversions Jan 2022 #17
That was a common belief in the 70s and 80s. PTWB Jan 2022 #18
From the article Celerity Jan 2022 #25
Yes but that doesn't seem to be working. cinematicdiversions Jan 2022 #29
the underlying socio-economic issues are being poorly addressed Celerity Jan 2022 #33
Basically, the way to stop crime is to madville Jan 2022 #36
I don't think that is true. There will always be crime...and sorry that sort of criminal behavior Demsrule86 Jan 2022 #27
You're attributing something to me that I never said. PTWB Jan 2022 #30
Your assuming a chicken and egg. cinematicdiversions Jan 2022 #32
What the heck? PTWB Jan 2022 #34
I assure you I am not trying to attack you. cinematicdiversions Jan 2022 #42
That isn't what you wrote in the post I was replying to. PTWB Jan 2022 #44
I don't disagree that there will be more crime in poorer areas and part of that are the crimes Demsrule86 Jan 2022 #35
Drug abuse and policies. Mosby Jan 2022 #38
Right now there are tons of jobs, skilled & unskilled, waiting to be filled oldsoftie Jan 2022 #49
They won't. And the ones being hurt becsuse of their criminal behaviour JI7 Jan 2022 #55
Thieves will still steal. I-Scream Jan 2022 #10
Thank you whathehell Jan 2022 #16
Saying people steal because they are poor is a terrible indictment of the economically disadvantaged alphafemale Jan 2022 #23
You pretty much nailed it. nt oldsoftie Jan 2022 #50
So your take is these people are poor? harumph Jan 2022 #14
It is hilarious. And it explains a lot of other hilarious Nixie Jan 2022 #20
It's a rather repulsive mindset. Looking down on poor people. alphafemale Jan 2022 #24
So we should just leave the bank vaults open and unguarded too, then? alphafemale Jan 2022 #21
So, let them steal? No punishment? Nt USALiberal Jan 2022 #26
bs Calculating Jan 2022 #40
I think it's agents of those who want to keep inflation up and the supply chain choked. LuvLoogie Jan 2022 #4
Thats a big enough reach to make Stretch Armstrong laugh. oldsoftie Jan 2022 #51
Sounds like they have really lax security - maybe it's intentional tenderfoot Jan 2022 #6
Why would lax security be " intentional"? whathehell Jan 2022 #15
To create chaos - they sure had a lot of time to leave all that debris all over the place tenderfoot Jan 2022 #28
Union Pacific has its own police force Beaverhausen Jan 2022 #45
Looks like they had the night off tenderfoot Jan 2022 #48
Yeah. The story is not adding up, imo. Nt ecstatic Jan 2022 #54
I'm bewildered by the debris... tenderfoot Jan 2022 #56
Besides the vandalism is the mess of trash that's just left Raine Jan 2022 #9
I saw the pics shanti Jan 2022 #12
Hmmm, you're supposed to sell that stuff. BlueTsunami2018 Jan 2022 #13
Arrest The Thieves Lock Them Up Then Give Them Jobs Planting Trees When They Get Out DanieRains Jan 2022 #19
This is not a new problem Amishman Jan 2022 #22
I've seen articles on this happening in Chicago. Throck Jan 2022 #31
Sounds more like anarchists than thieves madville Jan 2022 #37
Anarchist? Throck Jan 2022 #39
Seems more like basic trash dumping leftstreet Jan 2022 #46
Despicable Calculating Jan 2022 #41
This is why Adams was elected in NYC radius777 Jan 2022 #43
London Breed REALLY went off on it last month didnt she? oldsoftie Jan 2022 #52
Post removed Post removed Jan 2022 #47
Which packages are mailed by train? ecstatic Jan 2022 #53
 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
2. We don't shoot people who steal or damage property.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:05 AM
Jan 2022

The real solution is to end the staggering wealth disparity between rich and poor, institute a mandatory living wage tied to inflation and other economic metrics, and tax the fuck out of the 1%.

JI7

(89,247 posts)
7. No, the people doing these crimes don't want to do any job . They shoot and kill minimum wage
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:23 AM
Jan 2022

workers .

brooklynite

(94,503 posts)
8. And just like that, crime will disappear?
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:27 AM
Jan 2022

If only we'd had those policies when the mafia was a major source of crime.

 

cinematicdiversions

(1,969 posts)
17. That is complete nonsense
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:14 AM
Jan 2022

The see e people are not motivated by wealth disparity. They are emboldened by a lazzie faire attitude towards crime and criminals.

Celerity

(43,327 posts)
25. From the article
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:19 AM
Jan 2022

Crime is associated with increases in poverty, which has increased during the pandemic. The county's directive was intended to combat social ills that come from misdemeanor convictions, such as difficulties with employment, housing, education, government benefits and immigration.

"Studies show that prosecution of the offenses driving the bulk of misdemeanor cases have minimal, or even negative, long-term impacts on public safety," Gascón said when the directive was issued.

"Our office is committed to working with law enforcement to ensure collective safety across Los Angeles County's sprawling infrastructure, whether it's at our ports or on railroad tracks," Alex Bastian, Special Advisor to District Attorney Gascón said when reached for comment.

 

cinematicdiversions

(1,969 posts)
29. Yes but that doesn't seem to be working.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:18 AM
Jan 2022

Areas of the country where crime is prosecuted simply don't have these issues.

madville

(7,408 posts)
36. Basically, the way to stop crime is to
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:54 PM
Jan 2022

Not recognize those acts as crimes anymore, that makes sense……

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
27. I don't think that is true. There will always be crime...and sorry that sort of criminal behavior
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:25 AM
Jan 2022

can't be tolerated. As a party, we will lose multiple elections if we support such behavior.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
30. You're attributing something to me that I never said.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 11:30 AM
Jan 2022

Of course there will always be some crime. I never suggested we could completely eliminate it. But we can eliminate the vast majority of crime by eliminating the root causes of crime, and those root causes are socioeconomic.

If you disagree, how do you account for the difference in crime rates between residents of affluent neighborhoods and residents of impoverished inner city neighborhoods?

I guarantee the crime rate would plummet if we fixed the socioeconomic issues that are the root cause of crime to begin with.

 

cinematicdiversions

(1,969 posts)
32. Your assuming a chicken and egg.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 12:03 PM
Jan 2022

Hard working people who are not criminals tend to, over time, move up the socioeconomic ladder. Why people who are criminally inclined tend to move down the same ladder.

Crime in reality really doesn't pay that well. And people with poor impulse control are not good with money or other life decisions.

But your painting of the poor as a criminal class still is distasteful. The majority of poor people are not criminals despite the assertions made in these posts.

 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
34. What the heck?
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:33 PM
Jan 2022

Find me one post where I disparaged the poor and claimed that the "majority of poor people" are criminals. That's absolutely ridiculous and I've never said anything of the sort. Let me be pellucidly (thanks Malaise!) clear: the majority of poor people are not criminals and their poverty is not the result of their "criminal inclinations tending to move them down the socioeconomic ladder" as you wrote.

You need to be more careful with the accusations you level. You've completely misunderstood my post and then made nefarious accusations against me based on that misunderstanding.

Your suggestion that that poor people simply have "poor impulse control" and are criminals because they're "not good with money or other life decisions" is incredibly offensive.

In one breath you're trying to suggest that I'm painting the poor as a criminal class (I'm not, and that couldn't be further from the truth). In the very next breath you're doing exactly that--painting the poor as a criminal class--by saying that poor people are poor because they're "criminally inclined" and moving down the socioeconomic ladder. You're saying they're poor because they have "poor impulse control" and are "not good with money or other life decisions."

Your statement that poor people would move up the socioeconomic ladder if only they "worked harder" sounds suspiciously like the things that right wing extremists say. That type of talk has no place on a progressive, Democratic forum.

I cannot believe I'm reading that here.

 

cinematicdiversions

(1,969 posts)
42. I assure you I am not trying to attack you.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 03:55 AM
Jan 2022

No-one is saying the majority of poor people are criminals. In fact, criminals are a very small minority of poor people.

I am saying is the majority of criminals are poor. Due primarily to thier criminal nature and the other behaviors associated with that criminality.

But the idea that someone would turn to crime due to wealth disparity is bizarre. How would what someone else owns or make possibly cause anyone to turn into a criminal. That is like saying other people having girlfriends is what causes rapists.

If someone steals because they are envious of strangers that own things they don't they are horribly broken either mentally or morally and need to be incarcerated and possibly rehabilitated. They do not need to be released back into polite society to continue their antisocial behavior any more than a rapist does.



 

PTWB

(4,131 posts)
44. That isn't what you wrote in the post I was replying to.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 01:28 PM
Jan 2022

In this post you've written that you're "not trying to attack me" and "no-one is saying the majority of poor people are criminals." In the post I was replying to, you wrote, and I'm quoting again, "The majority of poor people are not criminals despite the assertions made in these posts."

I do not claim that the majority of poor people are criminals. I never have said anything of the sort, despite what you wrote in that post when you attacked me with that false claim.

Now you're saying that the majority of criminals are poor, but you're attributing that as "being due primarily to their criminal nature and other behaviors associated with that criminality." That's incredibly offensive.

We disproportionately incarcerate Black Americans because they're more likely to be born into extreme poverty due to generation after generation of economic and social oppression. They are NOT any more likely to have a "criminal nature and other behaviors associated with that criminality" than white Americans, yet Black Americans are five times more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Tell me again how that's just due to their "criminal nature."

You claim in this post that the relationship between poverty and crime is because of "their criminal nature." You claimed in your previous post that these poor folks have "criminal inclinations tending to move them down the socioeconomic ladder" and that all they have to do to climb out of poverty is to "work harder." Can you not see how that smacks of racism, classism, and rightwing extremism? That's something you'd expect to hear if you'd accidentally tuned into Rush Limbaugh in the early 90s. That isn't something you'd expect to read on a progressive, Democratic forum in 2022!

I'm really not sure what to say to you. We've known for decades that as wealth disparity and income inequality get worse, so do crime rates.

The stark relationship between income inequality and crime

A new survey by Gallup, a polling organization, appears to go some way to verifying Becker’s theory. It asked 148,000 people in 142 countries about their perceptions of crime and how safe they feel across four measures: whether they trust the local police; whether they feel safe walking home alone; if they have had property or money stolen; and whether they have been assaulted over the past year. Testing the correlation between these questions and the amount of income inequality (as measured by the Gini coefficient) in any given country shows a strong and positive relationship (see chart above).

Whether people feel safe walking home alone or not shows the strongest relationship with inequality. In Venezuela, for example, four-fifths of respondents said they do not feel safe walking home alone—kidnappings and extortion are a common occurrence in the country. Its income distribution is the 19th-most unequal in the study. In contrast, fully 95% of people in Norway said they feel safe walking home alone. Sure enough, it is 12th most equal country of the 142.


FACTORS THAT PREDICT VIOLENT CRIME

FACTORS THAT PREDICT VIOLENT CRIME

Firearm ownership is a statistically significant predictor of homicide rate (t=4.43), but the effect of each firearm is vanishingly small (and that of each homicide disproportionately large) at the margin. For example, the model suggests that a population of 1.2 million must reduce its firearm ownership rate by 1 per 100 (i.e. destroy up to 12,000 firearms) to avoid one homicide per year. Alternatively, each additional homicide per year would prompt the purchase of up to 12,000 additional firearms.

Racial diversity. This analysis was colorblind. I used publicly available data from the Kaiser Family Foundation for the racial composition of each state (White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native, and of two or more races). The diversity index represents the probability of a random pairing of individuals being of different racial groups. The analysis found that more-diverse populations have higher rates of homicide (t=4.75) and robbery (t=3.41). This statistical finding might seem disturbing, but the magnitude of the effect is rather small: If we were to make our hypothetical population of 1.2 million of any single race, the model predicts that we would avoid only three homicides per year.

GDP per capita. The analysis found an inverse relationship between GDP and both homicide (t=-5.86) and robbery (t=-5.29). In other words, as a population gets wealthier, homicides and robberies both decrease. The model implies that our hypothetical population of 1.2 million could avoid one homicide per year by increasing GDP by $1,700 per person.

Income inequality. The analysis found an interaction between the Gini coefficient and the GDP per capita that was a strong predictor of both homicide (t=6.80) and robbery (t=7.06). In other words, the wealthier the population and the bigger the gap between the highest and lowest income earners, the more homicides and robberies. The model suggests that our hypothetical population of 1.2 million, assuming the current US GDP per capita of $57,466 and Gini coefficient of 0.41, would avoid 60 homicides per year if it had Canada’s Gini coefficient of 0.34 while holding all other variables constant.


How neighborhood inequality leads to higher crime rates

Overall, our results support the theory that as income inequality increases, so does property crime, and that the spatial context plays important role in the relationship. Policies aimed at reducing localized income inequality may help to reduce the incentive for property crime. If households have similar income, then there should be no reason for people to steal from their neighbors. However, we must caution readers on the robustness of these results to other cities. Block groups can vary dramatically in size across large and small cities which may impact the results.

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
35. I don't disagree that there will be more crime in poorer areas and part of that are the crimes
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:51 PM
Jan 2022

against the residents that are more vulnerable to such attacks. I think it is way more complicated than that...and the socioeconomic issues will never be fixed IMHO...not completely. Hope we can do a better job but I don't think it will happen in a way that will affect crime.

Mosby

(16,299 posts)
38. Drug abuse and policies.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:49 PM
Jan 2022

A new Bureau of Justice report released yesterday reveals that 21% of sentenced people in state prisons and local jails are incarcerated for crimes committed to obtain drugs or money for drugs. Almost 40% of people locked up for property crimes and 14% of those incarcerated for violent crimes reported that they had committed their most serious offense for drug-related reasons. If these figures hold for the entire prison and jail population, that means over 473,000 people are behind bars for seeking drugs.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2017/06/28/drugs/

oldsoftie

(12,531 posts)
49. Right now there are tons of jobs, skilled & unskilled, waiting to be filled
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:25 PM
Jan 2022

I would bet these thieves are of working age and physically able if they're robbing trains.
Maybe they can try real jobs for a change
I'm tired of blaming others for the acts of criminals

JI7

(89,247 posts)
55. They won't. And the ones being hurt becsuse of their criminal behaviour
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:43 PM
Jan 2022

tend to be poor minorities who ARE working these low paying jobs and trying to get by each day and improve their lives.


 

I-Scream

(34 posts)
10. Thieves will still steal.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:32 AM
Jan 2022

There are certainly societal economic disparities. I don't see anything that indicates the current rash of organized multi-million $$ larcenous crimes have anything to do with the subsistence for desperate folks in need.

This appears like straight up crime to me. The news tonight claimed the railroad is losing >$5,000,000 a day to this type of theft.

Thieves harm rich and poor alike. The big difference is an individual's ability to cope with the costs.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
23. Saying people steal because they are poor is a terrible indictment of the economically disadvantaged
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:09 AM
Jan 2022

Most people choose not steal because they have a moral compass.

People who steal do so because they have the opportunity to do so and they do not care about anyone else.

harumph

(1,898 posts)
14. So your take is these people are poor?
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:58 AM
Jan 2022

and that drives them to break into freight cars and dump merchandise.
OMG - that's hilarious.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
24. It's a rather repulsive mindset. Looking down on poor people.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:12 AM
Jan 2022

As if they have lower moral standards than the rest of us.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
21. So we should just leave the bank vaults open and unguarded too, then?
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:02 AM
Jan 2022

And the obvious armed guards would be a deterrent.

A thief will kill you, by the way.

A thief will steal when they are rich and well fed.

Your assertion that poor people are immoral thieves is rather repulsive.

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
40. bs
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 05:00 PM
Jan 2022

all these thieves and smash n grabbers need to get sent to prison. Stop blaming society for the moral failings of individuals.

LuvLoogie

(6,993 posts)
4. I think it's agents of those who want to keep inflation up and the supply chain choked.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:17 AM
Jan 2022

Drive prices up for the middle class.

tenderfoot

(8,426 posts)
48. Looks like they had the night off
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 03:32 PM
Jan 2022

or simply couldn't be bothered.

Regardless, something is off about this.

tenderfoot

(8,426 posts)
56. I'm bewildered by the debris...
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:48 PM
Jan 2022

Why unbox onsite? Opening shit takes time. So they had their way of the place despite the railroad having their own security.

Then the accusations about the LA DA's office, as if one has anything to do with the other.



shanti

(21,675 posts)
12. I saw the pics
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:42 AM
Jan 2022

they are something else! Why aren't they cleaning up the mess, let alone stopping it?

BlueTsunami2018

(3,491 posts)
13. Hmmm, you're supposed to sell that stuff.
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 01:54 AM
Jan 2022

That’s how it works here. Many a good deal has been had by things that “fall off the truck”. Or in this case, the train. This is pointless, wanton destruction.

 

DanieRains

(4,619 posts)
19. Arrest The Thieves Lock Them Up Then Give Them Jobs Planting Trees When They Get Out
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 02:39 AM
Jan 2022

As a business owner who is a constant crime victim, the people who choose a life of crime need to go to jail. Not that complicated. Give them a chance to choose a different life if they want, but jail if they want to do crime.

Amishman

(5,555 posts)
22. This is not a new problem
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 08:07 AM
Jan 2022

I remember reading about this years ago with one of the Midwestern rail hubs.

leftstreet

(36,106 posts)
46. Seems more like basic trash dumping
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 02:56 PM
Jan 2022

One of the photos traveling around shows an Amazon box that's been taped up with blue painter's tape. What thief would do that?

Odds are this story eventually gets debunked

Calculating

(2,955 posts)
41. Despicable
Sat Jan 15, 2022, 05:10 PM
Jan 2022

The losers doing this shit need to be arrested and spend some good time behind bars. This is NOT a victimless crime, imagine if it was YOUR packages getting stolen and trashed? The people doing this aren't doing it for food money, they're just scumbag losers who ruin society.

radius777

(3,635 posts)
43. This is why Adams was elected in NYC
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 04:06 AM
Jan 2022

and even Lori Lightfoot (Chi) and London Breed (SF) are sounding a much tougher tone on crime.

Being against crime does not mean one is for the racist police... Adams has always been against both. And if you think about it being for communities of color and the disadvantaged means you have to be against both.

The key is to give young people the proper schooling and a safe environment so they don't drift to gangs - alot of crime is gang related.

There are too many homeless mentally ill on the streets who need to be institutionalized to receive the treatment they need and to protect the public at large.

Response to Throck (Original post)

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