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Sacha Baron Cohen quote: (Original Post) tblue37 Jan 2022 OP
One of the best minds alive WA-03 Democrat Jan 2022 #1
CORRECT Skittles Jan 2022 #2
There was increasing prosperities, relative and real for the populace empedocles Jan 2022 #3
Martin Luther King, Jr, quote: tblue37 Jan 2022 #4
K and r. BlackSkimmer Jan 2022 #5
And currently Germany is apathetic towards facing down Putin. OnDoutside Jan 2022 #6
Sacha Cohen's 2019 ADL speech on social networks' contribution to a new fascism andym Jan 2022 #7
I remember this. It's an amazing speech. n/t ms liberty Jan 2022 #9
Excellent. ZZenith Jan 2022 #16
You have inreased the value of this thread manifoldly. dchill Jan 2022 #20
Brilliant speech! StarryNite Jan 2022 #28
Thank you! nt tblue37 Jan 2022 #29
Thank you for adding his speech. Solly Mack Jan 2022 #32
+1 dalton99a Jan 2022 #33
Bravo !! Duppers Jan 2022 #36
Thank you. Brilliant speech. XacerbatedDem Jan 2022 #39
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." highplainsdem Jan 2022 #8
K&R! SheltieLover Jan 2022 #10
Interesting. nt BlackSkimmer Jan 2022 #30
Throwing another K&R onto the pile True Dough Jan 2022 #11
Uggh, not this nonsense again. Jon King Jan 2022 #12
Nice try! Nt USALiberal Jan 2022 #15
Why not try a rational discussion instead of ignoring others opinions? Jon King Jan 2022 #17
It can happen... Divebus Jan 2022 #26
There are stoll Holocaust survivors alive who remember how it happened there. soldierant Jan 2022 #34
It Can't Happen Here. Crunchy Frog Jan 2022 #27
Point missed. Read Sacha Baron Cohen's speech mid thread. GoneOffShore Jan 2022 #38
Kick!! USALiberal Jan 2022 #13
absolutely true Evolve Dammit Jan 2022 #14
K & R...for truth...nt Wounded Bear Jan 2022 #18
True, but I'm not sure apathy is our biggest problem here. tavernier Jan 2022 #19
It's always about money. Duppers Jan 2022 #37
Rt TY! Cha Jan 2022 #21
And One of the First Anti-Semites Was None Other Than the "Apostle" Paul... panfluteman Jan 2022 #22
Very interesting. StarryNite Jan 2022 #23
Addendum: Hhhhmmmm... Donald Trump's Situation Strangely Mirrors That of the "Apostle" Paul... panfluteman Jan 2022 #24
Saving this quote! I can use it! calimary Jan 2022 #25
K&R Solly Mack Jan 2022 #31
Excellent quote. I saw him give the speech, very powerful appalachiablue Jan 2022 #35
I think one of the biggest drivers of this is that population under age 60 Texin Jan 2022 #40
This is where we are today. ananda Jan 2022 #41
60 Minutes last night on the betrayal of Anne Frank. SleeplessinSoCal Jan 2022 #42

Skittles

(152,964 posts)
2. CORRECT
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 08:09 PM
Jan 2022

a lot of people didn't literally do atrocities - but they looked the other way as these guys gained power and carried out their mission

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
4. Martin Luther King, Jr, quote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 08:11 PM
Jan 2022
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people."
Martin Luther King, Jr, 1963

andym

(5,441 posts)
7. Sacha Cohen's 2019 ADL speech on social networks' contribution to a new fascism
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 08:24 PM
Jan 2022

Last edited Mon Jan 17, 2022, 11:33 AM - Edit history (2)

https://www.adl.org/news/article/sacha-baron-cohens-keynote-address-at-adls-2019-never-is-now-summit-on-anti-semitism

"Thank you, Jonathan, for your very kind words. Thank you, ADL, for this recognition and your work in fighting racism, hate and bigotry. And to be clear, when I say “racism, hate and bigotry” I’m not referring to the names of Stephen Miller’s Labradoodles.

Now, I realize that some of you may be thinking, what the hell is a comedian doing speaking at a conference like this! I certainly am. I’ve spent most of the past two decades in character. In fact, this is the first time that I have ever stood up and given a speech as my least popular character, Sacha Baron Cohen. And I have to confess, it is terrifying.

I realize that my presence here may also be unexpected for another reason. At times, some critics have said my comedy risks reinforcing old stereotypes.

The truth is, I’ve been passionate about challenging bigotry and intolerance throughout my life. As a teenager in the UK, I marched against the fascist National Front and to abolish Apartheid. As an undergraduate, I traveled around America and wrote my thesis about the civil rights movement, with the help of the archives of the ADL. And as a comedian, I’ve tried to use my characters to get people to let down their guard and reveal what they actually believe, including their own prejudice.

Now, I’m not going to claim that everything I’ve done has been for a higher purpose. Yes, some of my comedy, OK probably half my comedy, has been absolutely juvenile and the other half completely puerile. I admit, there was nothing particularly enlightening about me—as Borat from Kazakhstan, the first fake news journalist—running through a conference of mortgage brokers when I was completely naked.

But when Borat was able to get an entire bar in Arizona to sing “Throw the Jew down the well,” it did reveal people’s indifference to anti-Semitism. When—as Bruno, the gay fashion reporter from Austria—I started kissing a man in a cage fight in Arkansas, nearly starting a riot, it showed the violent potential of homophobia. And when—disguised as an ultra-woke developer—I proposed building a mosque in one rural community, prompting a resident to proudly admit, “I am racist, against Muslims”—it showed the acceptance of Islamophobia.

That’s why I appreciate the opportunity to be here with you. Today around the world, demagogues appeal to our worst instincts. Conspiracy theories once confined to the fringe are going mainstream. It’s as if the Age of Reason—the era of evidential argument—is ending, and now knowledge is delegitimized and scientific consensus is dismissed. Democracy, which depends on shared truths, is in retreat, and autocracy, which depends on shared lies, is on the march. Hate crimes are surging, as are murderous attacks on religious and ethnic minorities.

What do all these dangerous trends have in common? I’m just a comedian and an actor, not a scholar. But one thing is pretty clear to me. All this hate and violence is being facilitated by a handful of internet companies that amount to the greatest propaganda machine in history.

The greatest propaganda machine in history.

Think about it. Facebook, YouTube and Google, Twitter and others—they reach billions of people. The algorithms these platforms depend on deliberately amplify the type of content that keeps users engaged—stories that appeal to our baser instincts and that trigger outrage and fear. It’s why YouTube recommended videos by the conspiracist Alex Jones billions of times. It’s why fake news outperforms real news, because studies show that lies spread faster than truth. And it’s no surprise that the greatest propaganda machine in history has spread the oldest conspiracy theory in history—the lie that Jews are somehow dangerous. As one headline put it, “Just Think What Goebbels Could Have Done with Facebook.”

On the internet, everything can appear equally legitimate. Breitbart resembles the BBC. The fictitious Protocols of the Elders of Zion look as valid as an ADL report. And the rantings of a lunatic seem as credible as the findings of a Nobel Prize winner. We have lost, it seems, a shared sense of the basic facts upon which democracy depends.

When I, as the wanna-be-gansta Ali G, asked the astronaut Buzz Aldrin “what woz it like to walk on de sun?” the joke worked, because we, the audience, shared the same facts. If you believe the moon landing was a hoax, the joke was not funny.

When Borat got that bar in Arizona to agree that “Jews control everybody’s money and never give it back,” the joke worked because the audience shared the fact that the depiction of Jews as miserly is a conspiracy theory originating in the Middle Ages.

But when, thanks to social media, conspiracies take hold, it’s easier for hate groups to recruit, easier for foreign intelligence agencies to interfere in our elections, and easier for a country like Myanmar to commit genocide against the Rohingya.

It’s actually quite shocking how easy it is to turn conspiracy thinking into violence. In my last show Who is America?, I found an educated, normal guy who had held down a good job, but who, on social media, repeated many of the conspiracy theories that President Trump, using Twitter, has spread more than 1,700 times to his 67 million followers. The President even tweeted that he was considering designating Antifa—anti-fascists who march against the far right—as a terror organization.

So, disguised as an Israel anti-terrorism expert, Colonel Erran Morad, I told my interviewee that, at the Women’s March in San Francisco, Antifa were plotting to put hormones into babies’ diapers in order to “make them transgender.” And he believed it.

I instructed him to plant small devices on three innocent people at the march and explained that when he pushed a button, he’d trigger an explosion that would kill them all. They weren’t real explosives, of course, but he thought they were. I wanted to see—would he actually do it?

The answer was yes. He pushed the button and thought he had actually killed three human beings. Voltaire was right, “those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” And social media lets authoritarians push absurdities to billions of people.

In their defense, these social media companies have taken some steps to reduce hate and conspiracies on their platforms, but these steps have been mostly superficial.

I’m speaking up today because I believe that our pluralistic democracies are on a precipice and that the next twelve months, and the role of social media, could be determinant. British voters will go to the polls while online conspiracists promote the despicable theory of “great replacement” that white Christians are being deliberately replaced by Muslim immigrants. Americans will vote for president while trolls and bots perpetuate the disgusting lie of a “Hispanic invasion.” And after years of YouTube videos calling climate change a “hoax,” the United States is on track, a year from now, to formally withdraw from the Paris Accords. A sewer of bigotry and vile conspiracy theories that threatens democracy and our planet—this cannot possibly be what the creators of the internet had in mind.

I believe it’s time for a fundamental rethink of social media and how it spreads hate, conspiracies and lies. Last month, however, Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook delivered a major speech that, not surprisingly, warned against new laws and regulations on companies like his. Well, some of these arguments are simply absurd. Let’s count the ways.

First, Zuckerberg tried to portray this whole issue as “choices…around free expression.” That is ludicrous. This is not about limiting anyone’s free speech. This is about giving people, including some of the most reprehensible people on earth, the biggest platform in history to reach a third of the planet. Freedom of speech is not freedom of reach. Sadly, there will always be racists, misogynists, anti-Semites and child abusers. But I think we could all agree that we should not be giving bigots and pedophiles a free platform to amplify their views and target their victims.

Second, Zuckerberg claimed that new limits on what’s posted on social media would be to “pull back on free expression.” This is utter nonsense. The First Amendment says that “Congress shall make no law” abridging freedom of speech, however, this does not apply to private businesses like Facebook. We’re not asking these companies to determine the boundaries of free speech across society. We just want them to be responsible on their platforms.

If a neo-Nazi comes goose-stepping into a restaurant and starts threatening other customers and saying he wants kill Jews, would the owner of the restaurant be required to serve him an elegant eight-course meal? Of course not! The restaurant owner has every legal right and a moral obligation to kick the Nazi out, and so do these internet companies.

Third, Zuckerberg seemed to equate regulation of companies like his to the actions of “the most repressive societies.” Incredible. This, from one of the six people who decide what information so much of the world sees. Zuckerberg at Facebook, Sundar Pichai at Google, at its parent company Alphabet, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, Brin’s ex-sister-in-law, Susan Wojcicki at YouTube and Jack Dorsey at Twitter.

The Silicon Six—all billionaires, all Americans—who care more about boosting their share price than about protecting democracy. This is ideological imperialism—six unelected individuals in Silicon Valley imposing their vision on the rest of the world, unaccountable to any government and acting like they’re above the reach of law. It’s like we’re living in the Roman Empire, and Mark Zuckerberg is Caesar. At least that would explain his haircut.

Here’s an idea. Instead of letting the Silicon Six decide the fate of the world, let our elected representatives, voted for by the people, of every democracy in the world, have at least some say.

Fourth, Zuckerberg speaks of welcoming a “diversity of ideas,” and last year he gave us an example. He said that he found posts denying the Holocaust “deeply offensive,” but he didn’t think Facebook should take them down “because I think there are things that different people get wrong.” At this very moment, there are still Holocaust deniers on Facebook, and Google still takes you to the most repulsive Holocaust denial sites with a simple click. One of the heads of Google once told me, incredibly, that these sites just show “both sides” of the issue. This is madness.

To quote Edward R. Murrow, one “cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” We have millions of pieces of evidence for the Holocaust—it is an historical fact. And denying it is not some random opinion. Those who deny the Holocaust aim to encourage another one.

Still, Zuckerberg says that “people should decide what is credible, not tech companies.” But at a time when two-thirds of millennials say they haven’t even heard of Auschwitz, how are they supposed to know what’s “credible?” How are they supposed to know that the lie is a lie?

There is such a thing as objective truth. Facts do exist. And if these internet companies really want to make a difference, they should hire enough monitors to actually monitor, work closely with groups like the ADL, insist on facts and purge these lies and conspiracies from their platforms.

Fifth, when discussing the difficulty of removing content, Zuckerberg asked “where do you draw the line?” Yes, drawing the line can be difficult. But here’s what he’s really saying: removing more of these lies and conspiracies is just too expensive.

These are the richest companies in the world, and they have the best engineers in the world. They could fix these problems if they wanted to. Twitter could deploy an algorithm to remove more white supremacist hate speech, but they reportedly haven’t because it would eject some very prominent politicians from their platform. Maybe that’s not a bad thing! The truth is, these companies won’t fundamentally change because their entire business model relies on generating more engagement, and nothing generates more engagement than lies, fear and outrage.

It’s time to finally call these companies what they really are—the largest publishers in history. And here’s an idea for them: abide by basic standards and practices just like newspapers, magazines and TV news do every day. We have standards and practices in television and the movies; there are certain things we cannot say or do. In England, I was told that Ali G could not curse when he appeared before 9pm. Here in the U.S., the Motion Picture Association of America regulates and rates what we see. I’ve had scenes in my movies cut or reduced to abide by those standards. If there are standards and practices for what cinemas and television channels can show, then surely companies that publish material to billions of people should have to abide by basic standards and practices too.

Take the issue of political ads. Fortunately, Twitter finally banned them, and Google is making changes, too. But if you pay them, Facebook will run any “political” ad you want, even if it’s a lie. And they’ll even help you micro-target those lies to their users for maximum effect. Under this twisted logic, if Facebook were around in the 1930s, it would have allowed Hitler to post 30-second ads on his “solution” to the “Jewish problem.” So here’s a good standard and practice: Facebook, start fact-checking political ads before you run them, stop micro-targeted lies immediately, and when the ads are false, give back the money and don’t publish them.

Here’s another good practice: slow down. Every single post doesn’t need to be published immediately. Oscar Wilde once said that “we live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities.” But is having every thought or video posted instantly online, even if it is racist or criminal or murderous, really a necessity? Of course not!

The shooter who massacred Muslims in New Zealand live streamed his atrocity on Facebook where it then spread across the internet and was viewed likely millions of times. It was a snuff film, brought to you by social media. Why can’t we have more of a delay so this trauma-inducing filth can be caught and stopped before it’s posted in the first place?

Finally, Zuckerberg said that social media companies should “live up to their responsibilities,” but he’s totally silent about what should happen when they don’t. By now it’s pretty clear, they cannot be trusted to regulate themselves. As with the Industrial Revolution, it’s time for regulation and legislation to curb the greed of these high-tech robber barons.

In every other industry, a company can be held liable when their product is defective. When engines explode or seatbelts malfunction, car companies recall tens of thousands of vehicles, at a cost of billions of dollars. It only seems fair to say to Facebook, YouTube and Twitter: your product is defective, you are obliged to fix it, no matter how much it costs and no matter how many moderators you need to employ.

In every other industry, you can be sued for the harm you cause. Publishers can be sued for libel, people can be sued for defamation. I’ve been sued many times! I’m being sued right now by someone whose name I won’t mention because he might sue me again! But social media companies are largely protected from liability for the content their users post—no matter how indecent it is—by Section 230 of, get ready for it, the Communications Decency Act. Absurd!

Fortunately, Internet companies can now be held responsible for pedophiles who use their sites to target children. I say, let’s also hold these companies responsible for those who use their sites to advocate for the mass murder of children because of their race or religion. And maybe fines are not enough. Maybe it’s time to tell Mark Zuckerberg and the CEOs of these companies: you already allowed one foreign power to interfere in our elections, you already facilitated one genocide in Myanmar, do it again and you go to jail.

In the end, it all comes down to what kind of world we want. In his speech, Zuckerberg said that one of his main goals is to “uphold as wide a definition of freedom of expression as possible.” Yet our freedoms are not only an end in themselves, they’re also the means to another end—as you say here in the U.S., the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But today these rights are threatened by hate, conspiracies and lies.

Allow me to leave you with a suggestion for a different aim for society. The ultimate aim of society should be to make sure that people are not targeted, not harassed and not murdered because of who they are, where they come from, who they love or how they pray

If we make that our aim—if we prioritize truth over lies, tolerance over prejudice, empathy over indifference and experts over ignoramuses—then maybe, just maybe, we can stop the greatest propaganda machine in history, we can save democracy, we can still have a place for free speech and free expression, and, most importantly, my jokes will still work.

Thank you all very much."

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
36. Bravo !!
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 03:04 AM
Jan 2022
if you pay them, Facebook will run any “political” ad you want, even if it’s a lie.....



if Facebook were around in the 1930s, it would have allowed Hitler to post 30-second ads on his “solution” to the “Jewish problem.”.



Jon King

(1,910 posts)
12. Uggh, not this nonsense again.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:02 PM
Jan 2022

Geez, do a little historical research, nothing is the same about the situation in America and the rise of Hitler, absolutely nothing in common. Demographics of the military alone insures nothing like that can happen, along with 100000 other reasons.

Did Germany back then have huge cities with giant well armed police forces of mostly African Americans? Did Germany back then have progressive states that control 1/5th of the world's economy?

We need to deal in reality. We are losing suburban voters because of inflation, the perception the Biden administration could have done better in Afghanistan and with Covid test availability. We are losing suburban voters because Repugs are great at messaging on crime and borders. Reougs tell suburban voters that their kids are being taught they are born gender neutral and being white is bad.

Those are the issues we have to focus on going into the midterms and 2024, not this silly Hitler comparison garbage.

Jon King

(1,910 posts)
17. Why not try a rational discussion instead of ignoring others opinions?
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:07 PM
Jan 2022

Please detail how a country like America with giant diverse cities with well armed mostly African America police forces and a military 44% minorities is the same as a non diverse Germany in 1930s?

Explain to me how America will become Hitler's Germany? What exactly will become of the millions upon millions of minority military and police when this Hitler like dictator takes over?

Divebus

(4 posts)
26. It can happen...
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 10:28 PM
Jan 2022

It can happen precisely because enough people can’t believe it can happen.

The U.S. is already on a regressive slide where almost HALF of the voters fed constant lies believe in the playbook used to turn a functioning Democracy into Nazi Germany overnight.

The highest levels of government were pushing for the detention and possible execution of a Vice President and other members of Congress because a fair election didn’t go their way. If they had pulled off the insurrection, a few edicts later and the activation of millions of “volunteers” in military cosplay costumes would gleefully carry out whatever purge they were instructed to. Civil War would be the result.

The American Military leadership has already sounded the alarm that a nontrivial number of service members sympathize with the insurrectionists. Same with too many law enforcement officers. There are too many of them who wish to simply execute Democrats and were marveling at the Taliban’s victory in Afghanistan, wondering aloud if they could produce the same results in the U.S.

Don’t blink, because it’s happening right before our disbelieving eyes. Who will be the victor of the Civil War? The people who believe in themselves the most and who have the conviction of purpose. I’d say the momentum favors the most brazen deadly ones seething with hatred and anger, not the ones hoping for hugs and kisses.

I would be thrilled to be wrong, but my father and grandparents watched it unfold in 1930’s Germany. I asked them a lot of questions, and here we go.

soldierant

(6,647 posts)
34. There are stoll Holocaust survivors alive who remember how it happened there.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 12:31 AM
Jan 2022

Most of them are saying that what we are seeing now looks very familiar to them.. The Holocaust Museum has lots of stateemts, including some from now deceased survivors who made the statements while yet living.

The worst I have lived through personally was McCarthy (not Kevin byt Joe) and his ilk, including the HUAC. I can assure you, otherwise sane people were terrified - terrified of doing something, or of having been thought to have done something, that might look bad in there "permanent record" (which didn't actually exist then - what with the internet, it probably does now.) I certainly have no reason to disbelieve survivors who have seen it all before.

GoneOffShore

(17,308 posts)
38. Point missed. Read Sacha Baron Cohen's speech mid thread.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 04:13 AM
Jan 2022

Then go back and look at history. Look at what happened in Rwanda, in Cambodia, in Bosnia, India in 1948, and then get back to us.

tavernier

(12,322 posts)
19. True, but I'm not sure apathy is our biggest problem here.
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 09:42 PM
Jan 2022

There are millions of US citizens who would like to get the lying TV and radio networks off the air, but we don’t have the power to do that. I think bigger networks could be helpful in that but I believe their lack of integrity and their desire of profit over country keep them from helping us.

Duppers

(28,094 posts)
37. It's always about money.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 03:12 AM
Jan 2022

The multi-millionaires want to be billionaires and the billionaires want more control in their endeavors to make even more money.

They know they can buy power and easily dupe the ignorant.


panfluteman

(2,054 posts)
22. And One of the First Anti-Semites Was None Other Than the "Apostle" Paul...
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 10:18 PM
Jan 2022

That's what I'm finding out in my study of Christian history and origins. The guy had major issues on many levels. First of all, he was never a personal disciple of the Jewish rabbi Jesus. And secondly, he has a wierdly ambivalent, almost schizoid relationship to Jews - on the one hand, he touts his Jewish and Pharisaic credentials, and has others, like his buddy and protege Luke, tout these credentials for him as well. Then, in so many of his letters, or epistles, he writes absolutely terrible things about the Jews, like calling them "vessels of wrath fit for destruction". So many of the early church fathers followed in his footsteps in his attitudes towards the Jews, and for centuries, all this Pauline anti-Jewish sentiment simmered and percolated under the surface in Christian Europe until finally, it erupted in World War II and the Nazi holocaust.

panfluteman

(2,054 posts)
24. Addendum: Hhhhmmmm... Donald Trump's Situation Strangely Mirrors That of the "Apostle" Paul...
Sun Jan 16, 2022, 10:24 PM
Jan 2022

On the one hand, his daughter Ivanka is married to a Jew, and he has great admiration and respect for Jewish lawyers and accountants. But then, on the other had, when those anti-semitic tiki torch bearing Neo Nazi right wingers descended on Charlottesville chanting, "Jews will not replace us", he called them "very fine people", saying that there were very fine people on both sides.

Texin

(2,585 posts)
40. I think one of the biggest drivers of this is that population under age 60
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 11:06 AM
Jan 2022

didn't go through enough social and global upheaval earlier. They didn't live through WWII, Korea or the Vietnam era. They've certainly never faced a draft or neither did they go through the era of MLK and others trying to launch a more socially just society. They have no collective memory of how hard-fought and turbulent these times were and how critical they were. It's easy to become apathetic in a period in which their full attention is centered onto an electronic device that their hands are wrapped around and their eyes fixed on for hours and hours upon end and the most important things in their lives is their Instagram or Facebook account and from which they get their "news".

SleeplessinSoCal

(8,992 posts)
42. 60 Minutes last night on the betrayal of Anne Frank.
Mon Jan 17, 2022, 06:17 PM
Jan 2022

The very lengthy, 75 years on, investigation showed the betrayer to be given a "Sophie's Choice" - my words. Either his family were sent to the camps or another's was. Otto Frank himself - who survived - was brought evidence and suspended his investigation.

It revealed a Jewish name and shed light on how Jews were pitted against one another. A true indication of sadistic depravity by the Nazi Party. Sadly a similar trait being stoked by many rich "journalists" on the right.

It was so much more horrible than we know.

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