Russia . . . . Ukraine . . . . NATO . . . . Biden . . . . GQP . . . . Russia

[Stinky The Clown]

Are we at the brink?

Is it a bluff?

Is it a test?

What its not, it seems to me, is nothing.

[mahina]

1. Not a bluff

Just an illegal taking by an autocrat. Ugh.

[PortTack]

2. Go watch Beau of the 5th column on youtube

here’s one

And then watch his clip about Biden’s misstep yesterday about Ukraine and the effort to walk back what he said

[Mary in S. Carolina]

3. Time to take out Russia

Cripple them once and for all - I am sick of them. Their economy earns less then NY, we can starve those bastards in 6 months - screw them.

[WarGamer]

4. Not entirely accurate.

One must understand the Russian Spirit and culture.

Russians will eat dirt and drink piss to respond to a challenge. They've done it before. And recently.

There's no such thing as protests in Moscow pushing for changes to policy or because people are hungry. Moscow will turn off social media and unleash the dogs and fire hoses on the streets if necessary.

It's not a fair comparison. Here we have a much more idealized view of freedom and democracy...

I'm hoping that our leaders and the leaders in the EU are doing EVERYTHING in their power to PREVENT conflict or confrontation.

Some in our population have never hidden underneath a school desk because a Russian nuke might be incoming any day...

We need a full Court press. We need the leaders that DO get along with Putin... in Germany, in France... to set up some kind of a 21st Century detente. No war in Ukraine, no pissed off Russians, no warships, troops or nukes in Cuba or Venezuela

[Mary in S. Carolina]

5. Yes, I did hide under desks

Russia is weak. I am for diplomacy, but when push comes to shove, let's just end this once and for all.

[WarGamer]

6. Russia is weak in which way?

You mean the world's 2nd most powerful military?

You mean the country that heats the EU?

The country with the world's first operational hypersonic delivery system for nuclear weapons?

A country that just a few decades ago ordered armies of 2-3 million soldiers to die on the field of battle as slowly as possible as to allow reinforcements to arrive from Siberia to face the Germans?

The Russian psyche hasn't changed since then.

You mean the economy? It's irrelevant. If push comes to shove they will put the population on 1000 calories a day and fuel up the fighter aircraft and bombers...

NONE of us want conflict with Russia.

EVERY world leader needs to get this thing fixed. No war in Ukraine, nothing... work it out.

BTW, push comes to shove means M.A.D. Remember what that stands for?

[EndlessWire]

7. All well and good.

I don't think anyone wants WWIII. I agree that Russians are tough. But, we aren't the ones that are posturing for war, threatening Ukraine, or, most importantly, clustering thousands of troops on the border, and moving assets into position. "War games" that are accompanied with belligerent language and threats of reprisal if we prevent them from invading Ukraine are not the normal preventive prep, or just-in-case behavior. Only after they have done this are other countries beginning to move assets in case of war.

Trust me, NO ONE wants to invade Russia. Only Russia wants to return to the Soviet Union. Everyone else just wants to be their own country and to be left alone. But no, Russia has to meddle. More to the point, it is Putin that is meddling.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

8. WarGamer - they are weak

They are all talk and no game. They do not supply "all" the heat to the EU...for one. We can freeze them out - sanctions, freeze all assets and we can use their weather against them by freezing them out. They have a relatively small poor population spread across a large land mass....good luck Putin - you are done. How many Russians died in WWII compared to the Germans or Americans.

[WarGamer]

10. We'll respectfully disagree

Russians have endured more collective suffering that any other country over the last century.

So much in fact that if I believed in supernatural things... I'd think they were cursed.

Tens of millions of Russians died in WW2 because 4 million Germans invaded their country and their leaders told them the Russians were subhuman and were ordered to raze every village or city as they passed through.

It was "total warfare", a battle of attrition.

20-30 Million Russians died in WW2, depending on the source.

The US lost 300k

Your comments weren't grounded in reality.

You said "use winter to freeze them out"

You do know they're energy independent right? And food independent, right? And will always have trade ties with China, right?

You need to study the topic a bit

[Mary in S. Carolina]

15. Yes, they have

been struggling for years under Obama's sanctions, when we totally cut them off, it will be over for them, and this will allow China to invade. I do not think Putin is keen on having China take over Russian. Nor do we want China to invade Russia, but at this point it is up to Russia.

[Xolodno]

12. Yes that kind of hubris and thinking has worked so well with...

Iran

Cuba

Vietnam

Lebanon

Somalia

Iraq

Libya

Yemen

Afghanistan

Syria

And take note, none of those nations have nukes (with the exception of Iran perhaps) or the obscene massive amount of resources that Russia has. Nor do they have as much trading access to China, India and other Asian nations that Russia can pivot to.

And despite the USA's best efforts, shit didn't work out as planned. And in some of those nations, they basically lived in huts, such weak nations and still managed to defy a superpower. Tsk Tsk.

But hey, it's not all bad, we did ok with Panama and Grenada. I'd add Haiti, but the jury is still out on that one.

Note; decided to exclude the right wing dictators we supported through out Central and South America..oh and those in Africa that bit us in the ass later. Because, you know, they were "weak".

[Mary in S. Carolina]

14. We wanted to liberate these countries,

not destroy them. We will destroy Russia and they know it.

[Xolodno]

17. Wow. Just. Wow.

Not even going to dignify that with a response. But I will say this, I come from a family that saved Armenians from the Ottoman Genocide and my wife whose parents are refugee's from the last Shah of Iran...I'll just say, nothing, as that is all that needs to be said.

[Celerity]

19. 'Liberate' Iran my ass! Operation Ajax was an illegal coup against a democratically elected Mohammad

Mosaddegh (a secular moderate) in 1953 by the CIA and MI6 because (the main real reason) he nationalised the Iranian oil industry, which had been expropriated by the Brits since 1914 through the Anglo-Persian Oil Company.

The US and the UK installed the brutal tyrants of the Pahlavi dynasty back into power, they terrorised the nation for decades with the SAVAK (secret police), which eventually led to the Islamic Revolution in 1978.


In declassified document, CIA acknowledges role in '53 Iran coup

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/politics/cia-iran-1953-coup/



That is just one of MANY illegal coups d'etat and murder wars the US has been involved in since 1893.

Found this almost 15 year old DU thread in search:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x708887

[marie999]

13. Russia is so weak that it has only the second-best military in the world.

And if we attack Russia and Belarus, we leave the Pacific open to China which has the third-best military. And "end this once and for all" it sure will.

[Celerity]

20. Just how do you propose to 'take out Russia'?

I am sick of them.

Be sure to pass that along to the US Joint Chiefs of Staff and Biden himself.

I am sure it will help tip the balance and get us to engage in a full-on kinetic war (and with the stated intention of 'taking them out') with a nation with the 2nd biggest nuclear stockpile on the planet and the means to deliver it.

[Xolodno]

9. The more I look at it, the more I think Putin never had any intention of invading Ukraine.

When he first took Crimea, he boasted that if he really wanted Ukraine, he could be in Kyiv in two weeks.

His best opportune time to hit was during Trump...and he didn't.

He has the economic chess pieces in place to destabilize Ukraine eventually, why mess with that?

The build up has forced NATO to show its hand. That pays dividends.

Its forced the US to single out Ukranian politicians they suspect working with Russia, while simultaneously showing which ones we don't suspect.

This has provided a very convenient distraction of what is happening with the Serbians in Bosnia with its growing attempt to split and rejoin Serbia. I guarantee you Russia has never forgot that insult.

He has slow walked this build up.

We're sending military aid in place of financial aid. You can't eat bullets.

This could be the pretext of establishing a base close to Ukraine since it has not fulfilled the Minsk Accords. Thus putting NATO in a non-stop guessing game if there will be an invasion.

Zelensky is toast the next election...assuming he doesn't jail all his political opponents. Remember, this guy was willing to sell Biden down the river to appease Trump.

Finally, NATO is saying war is imminent. If nothing happens, who looks like the war mongers?....again. Big propaganda victory.

....but I could be wrong and it all goes to hell.

[WarGamer]

11. this is the most likely outcome.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

16. If he attacks, Russia will be substantially weakened

and allow China to invade. Putin will not be OK with this. He just needs to sit back and sh** the f+++ up

[Hekate]

18. Alexander Vindman & Michael McFaul were on Nicolle Wallace's 2nd hour today & it was stunning

They expect a land war in Europe. Big. WWIII-style. A third expert was on PBS News Hour and echoed the severity of the moment.

The first two agreed that what the US cannot do is ignore an incursion into Ukraine. Guaranteed China would take notice, and think: Why not Taiwan?

Said Biden was right to say some of what happens will “depend on what side of the bed Putin gets out of in the morning,” because he is a man who utilizes chaos as policy.