Emptywheel: While TV lawyers wailed, DOJ obtained communications from Rudy, Powell, Meadowshttps://www.emptywheel.net/2022/02/02/while-tv-lawyers-wailed-impotently-doj-was-acquiring-sidney-powell-and-rudy-giuliani-and-probably-mark-meadowss-communications/
While TV lawyers have been wailing impotently that DOJ has been doing nothing to investigate Donald Trump, DOJ and the National Archives have been acquiring the communications behind some of the most damning events leading up to January 6. DOJ has been doing so even as the TV lawyers guaranteed us they would know if DOJ were doing such things, yet insisting that DOJ was not.
Consider just the events leading up to the December 18, 2020 series of meetings at the White House, involving Sidney Powell, Rudy Giuliani, and Mark Meadows, which some of the same reporters that reported it in real time are reporting as if it were new news.
So whether or not DOJ has these documents in their possession right now, they have the means to get them very easily.
In other words, while TV lawyers have been wailing that DOJ has been doing nothing, DOJ has been acquiring the communications from at least two of the key participants in that December 18 meeting, and the Archives have been acquiring the communications of a third.
Much, much more at link, including breakdowns on each of Powell, Rudy and Meadows legal issues and the evidence that has, or will be obtained.
have been wailing even louder but I believe those of us urging patience with Garland and the DOJ will be proven right.
If Meadows was only in legal jeopardy for obstructing a congressional inquiry, he'd be charged by now, but if a grand jury is examining his involvement in a coup to overthrow the government the process takes a lot longer. The longer the indictment watch runs, the worse the news for Meadows. The pundits and armchair "lawyers" seem oblivious to the complexities and even to the incredible gravity of the crime, attempting overthrowing the government.
it doesn't seem to make a difference how many times this information is shared - it just doesn't have any impact with the Tribe (excuse me, the 'TV lawyer') fans.
and as an aside - Emptywheel is an excellent source - way more in depth and informed than a lot of reporting. I've found them to be miles ahead of the crowd on a lot of the nuts and bolts workings ...
But Jury is still out on this, and I personally am relying on human behavior and our own history as well as world history as a measure of reality. Denial of that reality isn't our friend.
aren't the only ones doing that..".
ETA.. Actually I know of two real DU lawyers who reasonably understand what AG Garland and the DOJ are doing and are Not trying to Hurry Them UP!
and the felons Trump pardoned are brought up on charges beyond the scope of the pardon. If that doesn't happen before the mid-terms, no amount of Pollyannaish victory lapping will assure a Democratic congress in 2023. It's going to take a SLAP in the face to wake up potential Democratic voters and get them to the polls in sufficient numbers.
So long as the criminals remain at large and free to spread their poison, the support, historically enjoyed by progressive causes, will remain seriously challenged.
When a ship is sinking it's the responsibility of "all hands" to assist in timely repair and maintenance. Were a cook or waiter to plead for deferral due to their "job", it's tantamount to mutiny. When your house is afire you don't wait for the FD to wake your family and get them to safety. When the ship is set whole again and the fire is but a bad memory, then, it is timely and appropriate to congratulate those who stepped up, beyond their usual roles.
Our election cycles have evolved into perpetually running schemes to influence voters. Like perennial flora, they bloom and seed as they grow anew. This is certainly beyond the pale of elections envisaged by the founders who considered it an indispensable, however simple, poll. The summary of votes was to required to provide a numerical justification for representative leadership. They didn't specify a means or method, unfortunately. When there is on-going criminality afoot to cheat the poll results, undermine and predetermine elections, the response from law enforcement MUST be timely vis-a-vis those elections in order to be effective. To approach the problem otherwise makes them, their mission and elections in general, irrelevant.
Some, these days, argue that elections were not even all that important to the founders. That take is capitulation to tyranny. So long as there are real elections, there is a living democracy which can perpetually defy irrelevance.
will not be 'fixed' by the DOJ lurching into the political realm (in the support of one party). I can appreciate that people are anxious, perhaps near desperate, at the prospect of a failing democracy. But the solution is not to be found in 'weaponizing' our public institutions. It's also important to keep in mind, "sauce for the goose - sauce for the gander." And thus we become the very thing we profess to abhor. Respectfully. It is a flawed argument.
Free, fair and accurate elections which reflect the contemporary will of the majority of voters.
Respectfully yours, jaxexpat
I don't even watch tv and I know that it isn't "DU lawyers", but prominent career prosecutors (qualifies as lawyers) in the media have been and continue to state the obvious. Which is not too different than "DU lawyers" ..
Wondering what the rationalization will be for patience when that psychopath is installed in the white house once again.
Oh I know it will be the fault of Wailing DU lawyers.
Mueller's investigation on Russian interference into the 2016 election took a solid 2 years. No one should be surprised that this investigation into the events of January 6th will take just as long if not longer.
This is the strength and the weakness of our system of justice. Proof must be established beyond doubt, which is never a quick or easy undertaking. The strength is that we have high confidence in the outcome, but the weakness is that the wheels of justice turn slowly. Always have.
Personally I have high confidence in the DOJ completing their job and determining once and for all if there is sufficient incontrovertible evidence against the seditious scum that attacked out democracy on January 6th to bring charges. They will get it done while Biden is in office for sure. How much Congress can derail the investigation should they take back the House and the Senate in 2022 is a risk. It's ALL at risk at that point.
Even if these seditionists are charged and brought to justice, we have to realize that this will not prevent another coup attempt in 2024 or 2028. The blood is in the water and the fascist sharks are circling.
they hire are shit birds too. It is getting hard for the wealthy cable owners to hide who they really are. We don't want to hear how bad they have it. Not to mention all the cable talkers are paid millions. The middle and little guy have little voice and say.
for violating the Presidential Records Act and especially for obstructing an ongoing criminal investigation than for failing to respond to a Congressional subpoena - so the likely reason that DoJ hasn't yet busted Meadows for ignoring the subpoena is that they are putting together charges against him for the more serious offenses.
subpoena now and add more charges as the prove to be available?
What do you gain by waiting?
Wouldn't 'action' be a positive thing from the DOJ, encouraging those 'concerned' about a lack of action - and perhaps encouraging others who think they are immune or protected from charges to maybe 'step up' and see if they can get a deal?
You don't submit your case to a grand jury until you have everything you need to ensure you get an indictment and then can prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt at trial. Nothing is gained by presenting a case prematurely just to shut up some impatient whiners among the public.
provide some kind of immunity or something against future "more serious" charges? Are grand juries not allowed to bring charges against suspects who've been arrested for other things?
Charging a number of crimes at once makes each crime seem worse, as part of a pattern of criminal intent.
which I hadn't thought of.
It just seems to me the problem, and impatience, comes from the number of blatant obvious crimes going as-yet unpunished.
And maybe a few arrests on lesser charges might have given the perps a false sense of "that's all they got" .
I hope you and the other are right, and it's hard to keep my mouth shut about it, but that's not usually the way history works out. They have a lot of lawyer money.
for a single grand jury presentation. Its both more effective and more efficient.
Otherwise, what is the point of prosecuting.
... or reveal evidence they need for other cases before the time.
You don't want the perps coordinating stories, hiding evidence and so on because of things they find in filings and discoveries.
They should focus on getting everything now with the people assigned to it that know the details and know the dots that still need to be connected.
It would make no sense to prosecute now as the personnel would be taken from the investigating team that is needed to continue the investigation.
what does that say about its ability to provide "airtight" anything?
It is a matter of continuity. The investigators need to focus on their job to its completion. Being called in to testify or provide data while still investigating is a distraction. It could result in missing a critical piece of evidence.
My son was a white collar crime prosecutor and some of his cases took years.
I think the frustration is we dont have years. We only have a few months because if the GOP wins in November they will most certainly shut it down.
THAT is what the GOP fears.
People are expecting DoJ to reveal the status of its investigation - evidence, witnesses, timelines, etc., which is just what investigators never do. Why tell your target everything about the case you are putting together against them?
documents tell stories. Nothing, sometimes means nothing.
Keen observers of the courts know when and can recognize efforts to fight DOJ investigations. they haven't seen a thing.
Keep believing if you makes you happy but prepare yourself for the worst.
Many -- especially those who've done nothing wrong and are merely witnesses because they were in the room -- are happy to turn the screws on Trump. More important, it's in their interest to keep quiet that they're helping the DOJ until it's absolutely necessary.
against TFG or his minions, would you want that to be known, considering the threats and harassment you and your family are likely to get? Id be damn quiet about my involvement just so some crazy asshole doesnt shoot me.
about so much the DOJ could, would, should be doing. Protecting their witnesses and their testimonies is probably a highest priority issue, complicated and consuming many resources. But that, too, should be covered as a matter of course.
The fact is no DOJ has EVER had to do this, to literally expose a plot to subvert the existence of the USA while pandering/negotiating/working-alongside some of the "perpetraitors". It's like a three-ring circus of legalese come to roost.
Just as Col. Kurtz said, to whoever would listen, "the ancaneness, the arcaneness".
I still do some legal writing, and I try to keep up with new developments.This is all really fascinating to watch.
a new GQP AG could do that.
the J6 Committee will be done with its report before the midterms; they know they have a deadline. as a result, they won't get testimony from some of the traitors.
I still predict that Georgia is going to be the folks to nail Trump and Trump's closest associates to the wall. That' includes Senator Graham.
He said yesterday that the DOJ has only gone after those who were present at the capitol and none of the organizers that were not. Stewart Rhodes, head of the oath keepers was not on the capitol and was an organizer and leader and he is currently sitting in prison, awaiting trial. He has made other statements that have made me question his motives, I just can't remember them all.
he always ignores her. I do think it hurts her credibility to lump all "TV lawyers" together in such an exaggerated way, when they certainly do not all make the claims she ascribes to them, instead of being precise about who said what and why.
... I can't hold my tounge any longer.
The DOJ case against Mosby is bullshit on the face seeing 90% of all Americans would qualify for loans under the CARE ACT "quarantine" qualification!!
The FBI opens a CARE ACT case but the IRS didn't ?! Because they IRS knows they qualify and the FBI is not even talking to her lawyers about their claims
Mosby is drawing support from the NAACP and a multitude of black leaders claiming the DOJ is full of shit and not applying punitive measures against people evenly.
This could blow up bad in the DOJs face, they have a REALLY thin case and announced to everyone in the world the second they started investigating Mosby for some bullshit charges.
One of the charges the FBI made against the Mosby's was not reporting a lien on a house which is crazy, they don't have too cause a title company would see a valid lien and the IRS was freaking 2 years behind processing checks which the have the receipt for !!!
I'm sick of people throwing up strawman in regards to Putin's Whore, few to no one is saying they're not doing ANYTHING but plenty are saying they're not pressing this as hard as they could
Mosby case is an example of just that, the DOJ is doing all they can and with a horrid case against a very known black female pol.
"So whether or not DOJ has these documents in their possession right now, they have the means to get them very easily."
That is not good enough if they DON'T HAVE THE DOCUMENTS, because the real issue is TIME. Time moves on and it makes it more difficult to indict and prosecute the SOB and his gang. What good is it to anyone that the "DOJ can get them in December? or in 2023? I don't think repubs will take any of the houses, but there is always the chance they have learned to cheat better and could happen, so it is not a good defense to say "they can get them fast", the DOJ should be writing all the subpoenas right now, they should be almost finished to hand them to a judge next week.
Meadows is desperately trying to retroactively comply with the PRA. His lawyer has acknowledged he is trying to recover documents from private emails and communication apps like Signal to turn over to the National Archives, so he doesnt get prosecuted and face up to 3 years in prison.
Once the archives has Meadows documents, both DOJ and the committee can easily access them.
... tons of evidence already, this is an issue of time and there are hundreds of people.
I'm on the side of disappointed with the AG and DOJ overall mostly cause he's doing similar to Mueller; not using their bullhorn to scream loud and long enough to the public that the GQP has created a fire and our house is going to burn down.
J6 was worse than 911 but it didn't take over 9 months for the DOJ to FULLY scream to the hilt that 911 was wrong and they're going to get down to who planned and funded 911 and do something bad to them.
We literally just heard from the AG more fully on this worse than 911 issue in Jan and there's no screaming to nothing like they've historically done with others like Marilyn Mosby which is going to blow up in their faces I'm afraid.
Other than your mentions, I havent heard anything about Marylin Mosby, so clearly the DOJ isnt screaming to the hilt about her either.
... half of America normalizes it then it ... ***IS*** ... their job to say something.
I'm pissed when I work with someone who looks at something and wont do the right thing cause "... it aint my job ... " mindset.
Come on people, when you see something wrong we should do something smartly within our power to change it.
Which is what screaming to the hilt by a supposedly neutral law enforcement body would be.
... past and not grand stand.
There are a myriad of recent and past examples of them doing just this but when it comes to J6 and GQP war against democracy it has not been the case relative to what we've seen before.
There's been enough people who we roundly respect who are also not impressed with the DOJ and the DOJ just " doing their jobs" isn't going to help democracy against the GQP onslaught.
... a myriad of examples were the DOJ "...scream to the hilt that 911 [or something similar] was wrong and they're going to get down to who planned and funded 911 and do something bad to them...."
While an investigation is ongoing.
Glad we agree.
... and the people who planned it and funded it are going to be brought to justice is the right thing to do.
We just heard from the AG fully on this issue a month ago, that's too long and infrequent.
If you agree that DOJ silence during investigations is best practice, then why are you complaining about lack of DOJ screaming?
I do think they should talk loudly, frequently and openly about how wrong J6 was and that the funders and leaders are going to be brought to justice.
I don't think that has happened at the level of threat MAGA represents to America in ideals and actions.
I'm not narrowing the lack of outpour from the DOJ on cases, just the actions and the thinking from J6rs which I believe they've given J6 assholes a pass on.
J6 and actions of MAGA are worse than 911, we should have that kind of footing and I don't see it
because he doesn't have just a handful of hit men; as a master of stochastic terrorism he has thousands of them at his beck and call and he doesn't even have to hire anybody in particular. It's Henry II vs. Thomas Becket all over again: "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?" Some people might even have to go into witness protection, and I don't think that's an exaggeration any more. Prosecuting the likes of John Gotti required a lot of secrecy, care and discretion; prosecuting TFG will be even more challenging. Keeping the investigation confidential because of his inclination to intimidate witnesses and falsify and destroy evidence, and taking the time to cover all bases, will be essential.
"This entire process led Meadows and his attorney to make efforts to comply with the PRA, meaning theyve been working to provide the communications cited here, as well as those Meadows intended to claim privilege over, to the Archives."
I remember people asking why Bannon got charged in 5 seconds and nothing for Meadows yet, and I could only guess that they had "bigger fish to fry" with him, and it sure looks like that is the case. Meadows is going to have to decide who spends the rest of their life rotting in prison: him or drumpf. Time to flip.
a right to voice our opinions and insist that the DOJ takes action. If this article is true, then I'm glad to hear that something is happening, but we're not going to go silent until tfg and his fellow conspirators are in prison.
Marcy listens to court proceedings live when available, and obtains transcripts when they are not.
excerpt in reference:
Earlier in the snipped excerpt she is stating the "DOJ has been working very hard with the National Archives, acquiring the communications behind some of the most damning events leading up to jan 6th. ......"
Great! and yes we've been reading about this on the intertubes.
But then :
huh? What is meant by "whether or not DOJ has these documents, they have the means to get them. ??
If they've been working with Archives, and if Jan 6 committee has been rapidly circulating documents they've received to the DOJ, which I am to understand has been the procedure, wtf is Empty Wheel suggesting here?
It's damn confusing.
To the Archives. Meadows is desperately trying to recover all his private emails, texts, etc. so that he wont go to jail for violating the PRA.
Once he turns them over to the archives, both the DOJ and the committee will have easy access to them.
none of them are. I'll be happy to be proven wrong on this, but that's how I'm seeing it.
I hope when you are proven wrong you will admit it here on DU.
when and if it ever happens.. and will you apologize for your opinion if you're wrong?
what about ex Sen. Claire McCaskill, both of whom have been very critical of Merrick Garland.
Tribe was on MSNBC the other night and he (his words, not mine) said he think the DOJ has 'rolled over and played dead' when it comes to prosecuting Trump who should be indicted for sedition. Tribe said there is more than enough evidence to do so.
Face it - Garland is another Mueller - in that he values institutions more than justice or 'appearing political'.
We have Trump running around admitting he wanted to overturn the election, fake elector schemes, pressuring the VP, etc.
If this is not sedition (and treason) then what is?
So much has been revealed and actions have been taken in just the past month, the whole balance of the investigation has shifted dramatically.
Would you have preferred Trump have been indicted back in, say, August, rather than under the present circumstances, which now include the SCOTUS decision on privilege claims and all the new revelations (memos to seize voting machines) of recent weeks, not to mention the testimony of top Pence staffers who were in the room when the coup plan was created, as well as following the recent indictments of Oathkeepers for seditious conspiracy? Some of these Oathkeepers have but one degree of separation between themselves and Trump and his inner circle, and some are looking at sentences of up to 80 years. One of them willingly testified to the committee today.
Would you have wanted to see indictments of Trump et al before all these recent events? How would that have affected the investigations and prosecutions? Despite the obvious nature of Trumps crimes, the floodgates of Prima Facie evidence have just begun to open, providing clear legal proof of intent, malice, and knowledge of illegality required to sustain an indictment, prevent a dismissal, and increase the odds of a conviction.
All of this has occurred since the first of the year.
Yet, you and so many others have been screaming for months that Trump should have been indicted long, long ago
to divide public opinion and throw sand in the works of the overall investigation.
They WANT people to doubt all parts of the legal process so in the end The People don't trust ANYONE.
Classic tactics...and they are working. Even here some are taking the smelly stinky bait unknowingly.