Those who are "enthusiastic" for war...

[WarGamer]

The risk of a nuclear exchange is of course the total nightmare...

But there's more.

Last year Russia successfully fired the Tsirkon ASM missile from a submarine.

What does that mean, what's a Tsirkon?

It's a hypersonic anti-ship missile with a range of 1000km and is *probably not defensible.

So that means... a Russian sub could fire the missile within 1000km of a US carrier group and sink a US carrier with 5000 crew onboard.

And there's probably nothing anyone could do to stop it.

So set up that no-fly zone... shoot down a few Russian jets... what's the escalation look like?

[Hav]

1. I don't think anyone wants WW3 or likes escalation

but I also have this feeling that some seem a bit too eager to appease Putin.

[radius777]

8. +1. And I don't trust such people

considering how much the Kremlin spends on propaganda.

Bullies want people afraid of them. NATO is far stronger/bigger/wealthier than Russia.

[lapfog_1]

2. so, what you are saying (in almost every post)

[Meowmee]

3. No one wants any of this

I would like to know what your proposed strategy looks like.

[WarGamer]

15. Maximum pressure short of military intervention.

1) Stop buying Russian oil.

2) Keep arming the Ukrainians so they can defend themselves. Obviously we can see that works.

3) Feed Ukraine satellite based intel



That should do it.

[Meowmee]

20. That while it is good

Will not stop them from taking over U most likely and they are becoming more brutal as we speak. So what then if they attack a Nato country, what is the plan then?

[WarGamer]

29. We are bound by treaty to repond with military force.

In that case... go buy the most expensive bottle of champagne in the store, go zip-lining the next morning, skydiving the next afternoon and do whatver thing you've always wanted to do at night because the next day isn't guaranteed.

[Meowmee]

37. How about someone eliminates p from the equation first

[Papa-Ron]

50. Thanks Tim

Go sky divin'
Go Rocky Mountain climbin'
Go 2.7 seconds on a bull named Fu Manchu
Love deeper
Speak sweeter
Give forgiveness I've been denying

[andym]

4. Doesn't matter that their nukes are unstoppable. MAD may be tested sooner rather than later

MAD= mutually assured destruction doctrine

Because Putin may have no qualms about using nuclear blackmail to take back eastern Europe.

[WarGamer]

30. The Tsirkon isn't nuclear

[andym]

45. That's not my point. My point is that nuclear brinkmanship is definitely on the table for Vlad.

Last edited Wed Mar 2, 2022, 10:40 PM - Edit history (1)

It could be his next step, if he manages to take Ukraine and Moldova. Btw, thanks for the correction-- good to know that at least that supersonic missile isn't nuclear. Of course, some nuclear missiles are.

[MineralMan]

5. Those who are "enthusiastic" about war mostly

have no experience with such things at all. They have no idea. They're part of the "Let's you and him fight" brigade for the most part.

[2naSalit]

6. +1

[BlackSkimmer]

11. +1000

[MarineCombatEngineer]

12. Nailed it. nt

[WarGamer]

16. +1000 nt

[boston bean]

42. And you know it all huh?

[MineralMan]

44. Nope. Others agree with me, though, as you can see.

Do you have information to share from your own experience?

[boston bean]

46. And others agree with people other than you. People with the same amount of what you know.

Maybe even more.

[MineralMan]

48. Yes. It's complicated, isn't it?

I know some things. I also know that I do not know other things.

My emotional response to what Russia is doing to Ukraine would be to strike back hard at Russia. However, acting on emotional responses is not always the best thing to do. That is where it gets very complicated.

Fortunately, we have a careful, thoughtful President, who is advised by people who know all of the things I do not know and that you do not know. President Biden has to do a very careful analysis to determine costs and benefits of any action he orders to be taken.

The stakes are extraordinarily high. Both the USA and Russia have a stockpile of nuclear armaments. Would Putin use those if we take certain actions? I do not know. That is an assessment for which I do not have the knowledge required to make such a decision. Neither, I am certain, do you have that knowledge.

So, actions and their consequences have to be analyzed and considered before taking any action against Russia and Putin.

I am glad I am not in a position to make any such decisions. I am equally glad that you also are not in that position.

You're welcome to snark at me here on DU. But that doesn't matter in any way. We are not in that position.

[BlackSkimmer]

51. Thank you.

Well said.

[MineralMan]

52. You're more than welcome.

[boston bean]

53. I will continue to state my opinions on a message board that's purpose is to state opinions on

current events.

Even in the face of you stating things like this when in fact you have zero experience:

Those who are "enthusiastic" about war mostly have no experience with such things at all. They have no idea. They're part of the "Let's you and him fight" brigade for the most part.

But difference between my and your posting is mine are opinions about events. Yours are opinions about other DUers.

[MineralMan]

54. LOL! OK.

You appear to have an opinion about one particular DUer...carry on...

[boston bean]

55. Only when you continually do this. Yeah I do have an opinion about it.

[MineralMan]

56. Continually do what? Please do go on...

You're quite obviously free to post whatever you wish on DU. As are all DUers. Again -

[boston bean]

57. You know. I have made myself extremely clear.

I know you have a great reading comprehension. What was unclear to you?

[USALiberal]

47. No, just more than you. Nt

[Eko]

7. An ICBM is hypersonic just like the Tsirkon.

Besides, us against the Russian navy would be no contest for us at all.
That being said, I agree that those who are enthusiastic for war are very wrong. Us entering the Ukrainian war, and it is a war, leads to three possible options. Conventional war and or Nuclear war. When making a choice you have to be ready to endure all of the possible consequences. Ukraine as much as I hate to say it is not worth a nuclear war. If it spills over to other countries? Well, that's a choice that we all will have to make hopefully never. Besides, those enthusiastic for war are making it a binary choice when it is not. We have a lot more options at this point.

[EX500rider]

9. Tested a missile is not the same as in service

And I think the range is more like 400 miles on those

[Kingofalldems]

10. Once again, who is calling for war?

[WarGamer]

17. All the people asking for military intervention.

Some even here want US/NATO combat air patrols and several have advocated for US aircraft to destroy the "40 Mi Convoy"

You missed that?

[radius777]

13. Dude, your concern is noted.

Most of your threads are weirdly pro-Putin.

People can have different opinions, but Kremlin propaganda should not be allowed on a Democratic website.

[WarGamer]

18. How about pro-peace? That used to be a progressive value.

[Kingofalldems]

21. Should we surrender and let Putin have his way?

Again, who exactly is calling for war?

[WarGamer]

22. see reply 15

[Hav]

26. We all prefer peace but some also like peace for others

and have empathy for those outside our artificial boundaries.
How about Putin gets out of Ukraine so we don't have to engage in hypotheticals about WW3?
We know that's not going to happen but you have to recognize that sometimes it looks as if some put most of the blame on a potential escalation on the West when Putin could and it at any time.

[radius777]

27. Peace is different from appeasement.

Your threads seem to promote the strength and power of Russia/Putin while minimizing ours.

To be clear, NATO is the most powerful military alliance the world has ever known.

Russia is the aggressor nation here, and would deserve any reaction it receives, should it attack a NATO nation - or commit genocide in Ukraine which would force the West to react.

[Kaleva]

34. Defence of the oppressed and innocent is another value

[Happy Hoosier]

14. Why hell, why not surrender now!?

We‘re obviously incapable of dealing with the Russians. Let‘s just bend the knee and get ot over with. Right?


SMDH.

[WarGamer]

19. see reply 15

[Happy Hoosier]

28. Irrelevant

All you posts read like Kremlin propaganda. We‘re doomed!!! The Russians are invincible!!! They‘ll blow us up!!! It‘s defeatist nonsense. I‘m not suggesting charging in to battle, but neither do I think we should cower in fear of it.

[WarGamer]

31. that's ridiculous.

[Happy Hoosier]

33. We share a common opinion of each other. NT

[WarGamer]

35. BTW my opinion is consistent with that of President Biden and the Administration

Who are YOU advocating for?

[Happy Hoosier]

36. The people of Ukraine. NT

[bluewater]

59. Well said!

[mcar]

23. The armchair quarterbacks

seem to think they know more than the experts.

[WarGamer]

24. President Biden says no US military intervention.

End of story.

[mcar]

25. Yep.

[Red Mountain]

38. For now

The humanitarian situation is going to get much worse.

Pressure to help will be huge.

[CrackityJones75]

32. This thread was bonkers from the get go.

[JasonMain]

39. When it's too late to stop fascism.

[Wingus Dingus]

40. Straw man. Haven't seen any "enthusiasm". Just spitballing what

the US and NATO should do, and not do, which is natural. Trying to razzle dazzle/frighten us with Russia's military capabilities...the US, you might have heard, also has lots of very cool stuff. That's neither here nor there, because that's not going to happen unless Pooty does something stupid with NATO members, and then it's "game on". The real action will be economically punishing and isolating Russia during and after this event, and strengthening NATO--and helping any Ukrainian resistance movements.

[FSogol]

43. Exactly. Straw man. Wanting to help the Ukrainian people isn't pro-war.

Some acts are getting tired.

[boston bean]

41. Gimme a break. Enthusiastic. Hogwash.

There is already war. We are at extreme risk. Democracy is. Our Allies are at risk.

You don’t feel it. do you just ignore the carnage?

[denbot]

49. Go hide in your war game.

No one wants this, but then again life and death ain’t a game.

[hamsterjill]

58. Time.

We are going to war. On that I feel certain but not enthusiastic. Putin will push as far as he can until he is met with military push back. It’s just how long it takes for this to unfold.

We cannot be deterred by a threat that Russia will do something horrible with whatever weapon of choice they threaten. We cannot let Putin call the shots and still pretend he’s not the one in charge.

I don’t like that this is the way that I feel, but I see no other alternative. As long as there is a Putin, there will be a threat of destruction.