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Wed May 25, 2022, 04:10 PM

I'm sorry, but I think the "victory" in the Cold War looks increasingly meaningless by the day

You've got a country that:
* Oppresses its own people
* Deals in terror against its neighbors
* Has a nuclear arsenal with a madman at the button
* Kills dissidents in other countries

And then you've got Kissinger saying that Ukraine needs to cede land to Russia and that we shouldn't be trying to humiliate the Kremlin.

I mean, to me, they sound just like the USSR, except, you know, not communist.

I get it; the west wants to save face, many conservatives want to preserve Reagan's legacy that according to them he was the one who struck the killing blow to the USSR, and Kissinger and others may want to justify the breathtaking human and civil rights abuses our country perpetrated in Latin America, Africa, and Asia and that the ends justified the means...

But it's time to face a hard and brutal fact:

The "victory" in the Cold War gave us an even more dangerous Russia... except, you know, not communist.

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Arrow 14 replies Author Time Post
Reply I'm sorry, but I think the "victory" in the Cold War looks increasingly meaningless by the day (Original post)
ck4829 May 25 OP
Irish_Dem May 25 #1
Cosmocat May 25 #12
Irish_Dem May 25 #13
SharonAnn May 25 #2
TheRealNorth May 25 #3
regnaD kciN May 25 #6
Caliman73 May 25 #11
hibbing May 25 #4
lapfog_1 May 25 #5
roamer65 May 25 #7
lapfog_1 May 25 #8
BeyondGeography May 25 #9
Tommy Carcetti May 25 #10
ProfessorGAC May 25 #14

Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:11 PM

1. When the GOP handed over half the US congress to Putin, we lost the Cold War.

Putin won.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #1)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:58 PM

12. YEP

Modern "conservatives" took the Super Bowl trophy and handed it to the loser.

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Response to Cosmocat (Reply #12)

Wed May 25, 2022, 05:08 PM

13. In return the GOP was funded by Putin who helped them "win" elections.

And they got lessons on how to get what Putin has.
Total permanent power, control, access to all US financial assets.

And the MAGAs get white christian minority rule.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:22 PM

2. Kissinger - wrong in the 60's, wrong in the 70's, and wrong now. Bad track record.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:22 PM

3. The Cold War was never about ending dictators or authoritarians....

It was all about protecting capitalism.

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #3)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:33 PM

6. Bingo...

And, now that we have capitalism in Russia, our job is done. Mission accomplished!

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Response to TheRealNorth (Reply #3)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:56 PM

11. That is accurate.

We got into bed with some pretty horrific dictators and authoritarians before, during, and after the Cold War. All in the name of allowing corporations to have access to markets or to operate as they desired.

Capitalism has trumped democracy throughout a lot of American History.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:26 PM

4. Considering our "defense" budget, I agree n/t

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:29 PM

5. The USSR was sane compared to Putin

with the exception of Stalin

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Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #5)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:37 PM

7. It was saner due to a more of a mix of ethnicities, IMO.

Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Belarusian, Russian, etc, etc.

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Response to roamer65 (Reply #7)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:43 PM

8. I think it was more the ruling class in the USSR

need for self preservation, they never wanted to see another dictator like Stalin.

That is, until Putin came along.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:48 PM

9. "Victory" in quotes, exactly the problem

When it comes to Russia. Real wars have real surrenders after much death. Putin never accepted the geopolitical “verdict” of the Cold War. Russia won’t go down without a fight, per him, and being the Tsar, he is the only person who matters.

That’s why Putin needs to be defeated, to make the verdict of the Cold War real. Or so one would think.

Putin picked up on hatreds he shares with the right, he gets points for that, but he has so far been unable to fully exploit them. His problem is Russia craves our power position in the world without doing the boring but necessary work to attain it.

What do we have? The very things that the Republican Party is trying to destroy. Democracy, meritocracy, the rule of law, free and fair elections, strong institutions, freedom of information.

By invading Ukraine and showing just how amoral and hollowed out kleptocratic Russia has become, Putin woke up the West, or at least that portion of it that is committed to free and open societies. There’s only one thing that can save him now: the Republican Party and its quest to destroy American liberal democracy. They want what Putin has: a license to steal with impunity, crush opponents, and full legal and political unaccountability. The Cold War will indeed turn out to be meaningless if they win.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 04:49 PM

10. There was a brief, fleeting moment of real opportunity for Russia.

When Boris Yeltsin first considered stepping aside as President in the late 90s, he originally considered advocating for Boris Nemtsov as his successor.

Nemtsov was a true reformer, advocate against corruption and as good a hope as you could think of for a free and democratic Russia.

Instead, Yeltsin was persuaded to go with Vladimir Putin instead.

And then, a decade and a half later, Putin murdered Nemtsov on the streets of Moscow.

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Response to ck4829 (Original post)

Wed May 25, 2022, 05:21 PM

14. Nobody Won The Cold War

One side imploded, as was expected by nearly every economist not at U of C, Heartland, or Cato.
The USSR was an economic pipsqueak with a pathetically low per capita GDP. Just like Russia, now.
There were economic winners, like the entire defense industry. But, they didn't go away after the Soviet bloc fell. So, they would have been winners anyway.

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