I've been hearing a lot about those cops who stood outside the school. I remember...

[TreasonousBastard]

hearing about a NYC cop who refused to chase an armed criminal through a warren of old apartment basements on the Upper West Side.

It all brings back the minimal training I got in urban warfare those many years ago. Urban warfare is one of the most horrific things, of the many horrific things, a soldier can experience. Every stairway is mined, every doorway hides an armed combatant whose job is simply to kill you as fast as he can. Every corner hides danger and looming death.

Accusations of cowardice are easy to make by those who have never had to face the dangers of warfare. I admit I never saw any action in my years as a draftee, but I knew many who did, and I was trained to die at the hand of those I did not kill.

Cops come in all sizes and colors, some very bad, but they all go into the cop business understanding that they are first responders-- the first to drag crash victims from their cars, treat heart attack victims until the medics arrive, comfort those who just lost their home to fire... I prefer to believe that most cops enter the field with this understanding.

They are not combat troops trained to walk into certain death, and decisions have to be made that are not always made in combat. Just how many of our lives have to be sacrificed to save those held hostage by the gunman? Heroes are often made in such circumstances, but most of us are just not hero material. Nor should we be--this is life, not a movie.

[TheRealNorth]

1. Fair enough

But maybe we should stop the hero worship cops get for just showing up to work.

[njhoneybadger]

2. Then they shouldn't take the fucking job.

[Mr.Bill]

39. At the very least

they need to stop saying "we put our lives on the line every day" if they aren't going to do it.

[Novara]

3. Combat training in WAR is not the same thing as children being murdered in their classroom

No. Just no. No excuses. Those cops were fighting the parents outside the school when they were pleading for them to do something. One had his taser out, ready to zap the parents.

Hell yeah, defund the goddamn police.

[griffi94]

4. I find myself in the surreal position of defending cops.

As someone who has very little (zero even) respect for most cops, it is hard to expect a school resources officer
or a rural deputy sheriff, to face down a military situation. That's like expecting a paramedic to perform complex surgery with the tools in his kit. Police are not, and should not, be militarized. Of course, civilians should also not be militarized.
People are being sacrificed to old (mostly white guys) who have a John Wayne fantasy and want to play army.

[USALiberal]

18. So you think the kid has more experience than the police officers?????

[griffi94]

33. I think the kid was prepared to die.

The cops weren't as enthusiastic about that part.

[inthewind21]

20. Surely you're not serious

Have you seen all the military equipment the police have now days? Have you seen any of the news video of Police dressed in camo and full tactical gear to the point it's hard to tell if they are police or military at a peaceful protest? You're not aware they already ARE militarized? I'm fed the fuck up with the excuses being offered. No, it's not hard to EXPECT a school POLICE OFFICER to do his fucking job. We EXPECT our lawn guy to do his, we expect our babysitters to do theirs and the list goes on. The officer encountered the kid, saw he had a gun, saw he dropped a bag of ammunition right in front of the school yet did nothing to prevent him from entering the school but DID let him enter the school without resistance. I guess he missed the shooting that went on in front of the funeral home before the murderer headed across the street to the school. He had a chance, he blew it. No it's not hard to EXPECT a rural deputy sheriff to DO HIS FUCKING JOB the police made the decision to be police. If they are unclear on what the job entails then they need to GTFO or be forced out. But hey, it's ONLY 19 elementary school kids. Thoughts and prayers, and hey, did we tell ya how heroic the police were?

[griffi94]

32. I have seen the military gear that LE has.

That still doesn't give a small town police force the training or experience to deal with a situation like this.
The gear is just gear. Small town LE is not trained for a military response.

[LeftInTX]

23. Uvalde is "small town", but they're not that "small"

I'm sure they have had some serious crime where they had to deal with someone was armed with an AR-15.
AR-15s are fairly common over there too, they have wild hog problems and big game hunting is fairly popular.

[griffi94]

31. The wild hogs don't shoot back.

I'm from a small rural town, much like Uvalde, and nothing in their previous experience prepares them for
a situation like this. Military weapons should not be available to the general public. Full stop.

[Bettie]

5. Well, you'd think one of these supposedly trained

professionals would have had a moment when he wondered if maybe, someone could keep some of the kids from dying.

But, no, they all preferred to stand around and wait for a while.

I hear all the time about how cops are so brave, "running toward danger", except, they aren't, they perceive danger when faced with a traffic stop when the driver isn't white, but in a situation like this? Nah, just wait it out.

They had 40 minutes to make a decision, to screw up their courage. They chose not to even try.

[countingbluecars]

6. Yet they want teachers

to do it. This was these kids lives, not a movie.

[Bucky]

14. I'm a teacher. I can tell you one thing for sure...

If you start having teachers carry guns, you're far more likely to have a teacher overwhelmed and in a panic one day brandishing a weapon on an unruly student and possibly firing on them than you are ever gonna hear of a classroom teacher stopping a spree killer.

[quakerboy]

7. So it's a job like any other

And a few may step up in the face of danger, but it shouldn't be expected. Just like janitors who aren't trained to deal with armed people, but sometimes step up. Or teachers. Or fast food workers.

And of course the corollary is they should get the same amount of pay, pension, believability in court, authority to take someone else's life, and all the rest? That's your point, right?

I wonder how many firefighters who just stand around a burning building with kids inside, doing nothing, would keep their jobs after the event?

[BlueGreenLady]

8. They would have had to go in and

try to shoot the gunman, without shooting children and teachers. I would assume that the gunman would use the children as human shields. They may have been acting on orders from superiors not to go in. So many Monday morning quarterback questions to answer.

[inthewind21]

21. And a whole lot of

Excuse making. You know what they say about assuming? Congrats, you're spot on!

[Treefrog]

36. No doubt you'd have taken the guy down.

[anarch]

9. there was one guy; they knew where he was

[dchill]

10. I get it. I hear you. Here's the thing.

They KNEW how many. One. They KNEW where. The locked room. The problem? Courage to do their job.

[Bucky]

13. I assume you've never been in a firefight

Cause your certainty that they had all the information they needed, or that they even had the information we've all learned after the fact, tells me you know nothing about the training that school resource officers go through preparing for their complicated and harried jobs

[dchill]

15. That's right.

I certainly know nothing about the training THOSE officers went through. Maybe we should just send in the firefighters, instead.

[USALiberal]

19. So you're saying they did exactly the right thing?????

[Torchlight]

29. lol. sure. nt

[inthewind21]

24. You assume...lol

Apparently you don't have any access to news. Or you too would know these facts. So, anything else ya want to toss out that can be easily explained?

[Generic Brad]

11. I thought good guys with guns would prevent this

Logically, they must have been bad guys too because they didn’t protect anyone.

[Bucky]

12. School resource officers receive training in many areas...

Spotting kids with substance abuse issues, de-escalation, calming kids down, searching backpacks for joints or pills, loss prevention...

SWAT is not one of the areas they get trained for. I will not buy into the ludicrous NRA argument that any "good guy" with a gun is automatically a bulletproof solution to crime and assault.

I'm mad they didn't act faster, but I have not walked a mile in their shoes. They had side arms against an assault weapon carried by a deranged man who seemed to be in body armor. We know nothing about the tactical situation they faced. Glib arguments about how they should have run, in fanning their revolver hammers like Roy Rogers, are based in pure ignorance

[inthewind21]

25. There you go again

[BlueCheeseAgain]

16. The way I think of it is this...

I don't completely blame the cops for not rushing into a dangerous situation-- they may not have known there was only one shooter in a classroom. They may have been ordered to wait for more heavily armed backup.

The argument I would make is this: Should any random person be able to waltz into a shop and buy weapons so deadly and so dangerous that even cops in tactical gear are afraid to confront them?

[Triloon]

17. Most cops are miltary vets.

They are drawn to a career that encourages them to dominate through force or threat of force. Their past training makes them blue ribbon recruiting prospects. The same is true for prison guards.
Whatever reasoning they cook up for not trying to save those children's lives it will boil down to cowardice.
Oh, the door was locked and they were waiting for a key? Right. That didn't slow them down from bursting into Breonna Taylor's home. Or countless others.
Oh, they were waiting for orders? No goddam comment.
Oh, they thought they might be outgunned? Right. The children were outgunned. The police were too frightened to act.
But they did a great job of bullying the parents screaming at them outside the murder scene. Gotta give them credit for efficient crowd control.
I want to know why the killer crashed his truck in the ditch. Were the police in hot pursuit? And when he exited the vehicle with his rifle they let him run onto the school grounds as they radioed for help? Are these the two cops that he shot outside? I don't know, the story is still unspooling. I have no expectation of getting the true story though. They cops lie whenever they please and softpedal or bury any exposed failure. That is another hangover from their military heritage.
They all should feel like hell about this, and I hope it lasts a lifetime.
President Biden signed an EO yesterday on police recruitment, training, and creating public trust. They've got a long way to go.

[LeftInTX]

26. I don't agree with the military vet thing for Uvalde

I guess everywhere is different but Uvalde cops and sheriff deputies are probably local. Most military vets from small towns like Uvalde settle somewhere else after they get out.

[inthewind21]

27. I've been

Asking the same questions. The killer had a shootout in front of the funeral home. The officer at the door the killer went through was allowed to enter with no resistance. And the list goes on and on. There are HUGE gaps in their story. And the school has CCTV so we've seen video. That press conference yesterday was a hurried attempt to cover up.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Where did you hear they were military vets. There have been no studies done...

to see where cops come from, at least no proper studies.

Census records show that about 17% of cops nationwide are military vets, and while that's the most accurate statistic we have, it's still arguable.

[TreasonousBastard]

35. And I'll add that even if they were vets, who said they were combat troops...

who had experience chasing enemies with military weaponry through a maze of civilian buildings with unknown traps inside. They may have been company clerks sitting on their asses in platoon HQ and never even fired a gun at all except an M14 once a year at a target range. I spent my time at division HQ in Germany and the closest I came to any kind of fight was in Kurt's Bar on payday.

I can't comment on anyone's decision to not get shot.

[gldstwmn]

22. They made the decision to punt to the Feds and wait for them to show up.

They will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. I'm so thankful that Beto crashed that dog and pony show yesterday.

[H2O Man]

28. Recommended.

I suppose it is easy to point fingers and express outrage, as pointless as that is. But you are 100% correct.

[uponit7771]

30. Nope, if this was an unarmed black man cops would fear for their lives and shot immediately

Last edited Thu May 26, 2022, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

[ck4829]

37. Yep

[jcgoldie]

38. Every cop goes through training for school shooting scenarios

The message that they receive repeatedly is that the only thing that matters is time. The longer they take to engage the shooter the more people will die. What is being described in Uvalde waiting 40 minutes or an hour before going in seems to be gross incompetence on the part of law enforcement.