Abortion, not so simple, after all...
It's easy to dump on right-to-lifers, especially when they are lumped together. The reality, as usual, is just a little bit more complicated.
While making our points, we do have to account for the almost half of the population that does not agree with us. Some are totally lost causes, but a good percentage of them have complicated views. These views are influenced by religion, but also by the surrounding community-- friends and neighbors, for instance. A mother of three who is inundated with school concerns and baby showers is not likely to be terribly concerned by many of our arguments. She will more likely be receptive to arguments concerning health of the mother and rape and incest but turn her back on other arguments concerning rights, and choice. Men, it seems, seem to favor abortion as a solution to an unplanned pregnancy and are not necessarily the enemy. Rightwing politicians and religious assholes, of the rightwing variety, and with very big mouths, are the enemy, not the average guy just trying to keep his wife/girlfriend happy and gets caught up in the fighting. My personal experience is something on the order of "Sure, I'll pay for the abortion..." from most guys in this position.
It seems that most polls show that at least as high as 60% are at least uncomfortable with abortion as a means of birth control, and they have to be dealt with. Further complicating the argument is it seems over half of them are women, who are concerned with the morality of abortion over the convenience of it.
My point is simply to argue smart, rather than loud, and discuss with everyone, rather than preach to our crowd.
Everything is gray. Religion tends to look at the world as black and white. If that were true, why so many different churches. Politics arent much better.
Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #3)
Clearly you don't.
I cannot believe I am reading this here.
Next tell me how you respect women while you show me how little respect you have for women.
the things you may not even admit to yourself.
And now we all know.
they can make it illegal, yet everyone is free to do it. They want to take control and raise the price to have power. These laws are about religion, yet many religions see it the other way. Thats the argument to use. When they say it is about right or wrong, I say, says who. I agree with your view.
to do it.
And the argument you propose has been used for a generation without result.
The time for argument is over. There is no reason why the huge majority who favor abortion rights should have to beg permission from the minority who don't. And there is no reason why we should be treated to crap like this OP in a forum where we should be among allies.
My right to my sovereignty over my body is not up for discussion. They have taken it away. They are clearly wrong, and there is no gray area in the truth of that statement.
There are only two small groups that see things as black or white. Those who believe ALL abortions should be illegal and those who believe no abortion should be illegal.
The ultimate achievable goal should be to increase our majority enough to pass a bill that codifies something similar to Roe v Wade as law. To do this, we need the people who think all abortions or almost all abortions to back something less than they want.
In reality, the argument over late term abortions was distorted by Republicans. Late term abortions were always both rare and due to threats to the mother's heath or life. A law that allows abortions without question up to the highest number of weeks that could get the votes AND exceptions beyond that for the health or life of the mother at ANY time might be where this ends up.
I realize the President can not reverse what the court did. Ironically, the limited powers he has are leading to a political fight where the Republicans are defending the indefensible. Texas suing the President on his emergency health directive puts them on the wrong side. The same with trying to monitor women of an age where pregnancy is possible from traveling to another state is also not a good place to be. Not to mention, I don't think the country is happy with the goal of eliminating birth control as Thomas suggested.
Obviously, we are in a place I never thought we would be. It is also infuriating that the Republicans cheated to get to that position. However, I think the op is providing information that helps suggest that the path out is to keep our rhetoric focused on the achievable goal of getting more Democrats elected and codifying Roe v Wade.
I know! It's the economic insecurity!
PS: 37% is not "almost half." And 61% is an overwhelming majority.
ALSO: "Abortion as a means of birth control"? MUST we magnify EVERY republiQan talking point around this? Really, must we?
you know, jump in the car, stop for a light brunch and a mimosa, a few hours at the clinic being pampered and catered to, then a nice drink before heading home after a full fun day.
And BECAUSE I am so cavalier about it, those people who want to co-opt MY ENTIRE LIFE, ALL OF MY LIFE CHOICES have a point and should be reasoned with, right?
since as for most issues, this is not black/white, either/or.
There was a survey out either just before or just after the Dobbs decision and I seem to recall it said something like 63% of respondents wanted Roe v. Wade to stay in place. But when more detailed questions were asked, it was obvious that a fair number of respondents either didn't know or didn't understand the parameters of Roe & Casey.
I'll see if can find it, but based on what I remember of it, it dovetails with the data in the OP.
The majority of the people do not want abortion banned.
I suspect they don't want to make those health care decisions for other people or they simply don't care.
It's the conclusion of the poster that people are questioning.
that the majority of people don't want it banned in all cases, but the true majority is in the legal in most cases, banned in some cases.
very rare and usually necessary.
Once you get past 24 weeks, heck, 18 weeks, most pregnant people want to be pregnant or they would have already ended the pregnancy.
Those later abortions are generally for some pretty fucking tragic reasons.
Yes, I'm sure that someone can find outliers, but we're not talking about outliers, because bodily autonomy matters, which seems to be something that a lot of people have trouble getting through their heads.
No one should be forced to bear a child with all the risks that childbirth carries.
understand, deep down, that women are actual people, it would be instructional for you to read through this thread.
In the Goofus and Gallant world of "do I consider women people?" it is chock full of Goofuses.
And any woman who finds herself "concerned with the morality of abortion over the convenience of it" shouldn't have an abortion then. It really is that simple. Every woman should decide for herself what is right for HER body, HER health and HER life. No one - and I do mean NO ONE - has the right to make that decision for her. That decision is between a woman and her doctor. And, if she is so inclined, her mate and her god. Period.
Autonomy over one's own body is non-negotiable.
Fine. If one believes choice is immoral then dont choose to end a pregnancy. But, dont take away the right of others to choose. Its a medical decision that religions should not dictate to everyone in America. In my view.
Last edited Sun Jul 17, 2022, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
Point 2: making abortion illegal only stops safe, legal abortions. It also kills women.
Point 3: why is a woman's bodily autonomy even up for debate? Either women are people or they aren't. Which side are you on?
Point 3: It is the business of a woman and her doctor whether she has an abortion or not. That's it. No one else.
I don't care that 1/3 of people don't want women to have abortions. If they don't like them, they can choose not to have them, but abortion is, ultimately, health care.
If men could have abortions, there'd be a clinic on every corner.
You can start by not promoting the "abortion as birth control" lie that has been spewed by women-haters for 50 years.
How you deal with it is to boldly say it isn't true, as you do all lies, and demand evidence that it is.
"Further complicating the argument is it seems over half of them are women, who are concerned with the morality of abortion over the convenience of it".
To imply that women seek abortions for "convenience" and lack a moral compass is outrageous. You can start by questioning the morality of people who want women under their thumb.
"My point is simply to argue smart, rather than loud, and discuss with everyone, rather than preach to our crowd."
Where have you been for the last 50 years when pro-choice advocates have been working their butts off trying to keep abortion safe and legal so women can make their own health decisions? Have you lobbied antis at your state legislature? Have you done outreach to antis in your community? Have you worked for pro-choice candidates for 50 years?
The end result is that the GQP party made the political decision to use abortion to fundraising and bring fundamentalist christo-fascists out of their burrows and into politics. It is all about gaining POWER to enforce their agenda.
You can sweet talk with antis all you want, in the end their political party and religious leaders will win.
If it's not your uterus, mind your own fucking business. Forced-birthers can fuck off.
Don't have a uterus? Not your choice*.
Not you who is pregnant? Not your choice.
*In a functional relationship, there will probably be a conversation about an unplanned pregnancy or one where there are problems, but ultimately, the choice belongs 100% the person who is pregnant.
Everyone knows someone who has had an abortion
Every woman in my family was outraged about the overturning of Roe.
Most have experfienced multiple births and miscarriages.
They are factory workers, office workers, college students, and doctors.
They are atheists, catholics, and protestants.
Everyone one of them believes she should make her own health care decisions, including the lone trumper.
We don't tell someone who got injured in a car accident they can only get medical care if the injuries are life threatening or if they were hostage in the car. Otherwise they got into the car willingly knowing the risks out on the road and should be forced to live a lifetime with a broken arm and crushed legs. And for the religious crowd ... well those crushed legs are obviously God's will. Halleluia. (ugh)
The bottom line is medical care is medical care is medical care. At some point it has to stop being about "abortion" and start being about "medical care". Me, my doctor, and if I don't want to pay out of pocket, my insurer. That's it.
The role of government is to make sure the people and facilities providing care are well equipped and qualified to do their jobs. Government also has a roll in making access to medical care possible for the vast majority of Americans ( a role I'd like to see expanded).
If women are concerned about the morality of certain types of medical care perhaps we can channel that into making sure every woman has access to basic medical care for herself and her children. Decent food, education, housing. A good job. A safe place to go for help to get out of abuse. A justice system that actually punishes coercion.
A different way to look at what is on this page:
Less than 10% oppose abortion in almost all cases.
More than 60% support abortion rights.
To force this data in to tranches of equal thirds is nothing more than a "divide the majority" tactic.
Just because you have been served crap, it doesn't mean that you need to eat it.
but you emphasize that way smaller numbers of those who do not think abortion should be allowed-then they shouldn't have one. I don't give two fucks what they believe. Civil rights should not depend upon placating the small number of idiots who wish to strip women of their rights. And by the way abortion is not birth control...so that is rightwing bullshit anti-choice shit.
The idea that anyone ever used abortion as birth control is bs. Why would anyone want to plan having to go through that procedure, possibly a few times a year? That is ABSURD. The phrase "using abortion as birth control" is too absurd and too incredibly stupid to even articulate.
ensures no birth takes place. People get an abortion so they don't give birth, and in more than half of the cases, it's because a different form of birth control failed.
they mean using abortion regularly, in place of other methods, to prevent pregnancy.
You know, having abortions because they are wanton women who just want to kill babies that are the result if their sluttish and irresponsible behavior.
Mind. your. own. fucking. business. and. stick. your. opinion. polls. up. your. ass.
Never mind that it is sixty percent of the SCrOTUS.
It's no wonder they can't legitimately win a popular election... Ever.
Abortion should be legal in every state. The decision is up to the women, in consultation with her doctor if there is a health complication.
Enough with the "abortion used as birth control" BULLSHIT framing.
Dont frame the narrative as killing babies, embryos, fetuses, etc.
Show them the news stories from Ohio, Wisconsin, Texas and Missouri. Show them that because of this ruling, little girls impregnated by rape are having to travel out of state, women are in severe medical pain due to their ectopic pregnancies and women have died because they couldnt get the procedure approved in time.
Show them this cruelty, that fetuses are still dying and endangering or taking the life of the mother, that because of these restrictions, a mothers care is delayed to save her even if the fetus is not viable.
Complete abortion on demand. No restrictions.
The decision should completely belong to the woman who is pregnant.