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momta

(4,098 posts)
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:20 AM Jul 2022

They are NOT unintended consequences

Humans have known for centuries how dangerous childbirth can be. Modern medicine has given us the means to make it less so, allowing women to take more control over their lives and their bodies—control that many men are bitter at having “lost,” and that many unenlightened women believe to be a burden they would just as soon relinquish. (Lookin’ at you, Amy). But even so, pregnancy and childbirth are inherently risky.

So the horror stories that are making the news since the Dobbs decision hurled us all back into the dark ages were NOT unforeseen. Indeed, women more intelligent than I have been sounding the alarm about the dangers of overturning Roe since…well, since Roe was decided.

We all knew that rape victims, even ten-year-old rape victims, would be denied the chance to ever heal from the attack, and instead be forced to relive it over and over again, nurturing its result with our very blood. We knew that women would be forced into life-threatening situations where only days or even hours earlier, a routine surgical option would have been performed to the relief of everyone involved. We knew people would suffer excruciating pain, financial disaster, emotional agony, and even death. We all knew.

So I am forced to conclude that the five “justices” who have inflicted this new reality on us intended for it to happen, wanted it to happen.

Why? Well, that’s between them and their sick, twisted so-called “god”.

I, for one, am all out of fucks to give. I no longer feel compelled to follow the laws of a country that can so easily dismiss me as a person, endanger my life and the lives of my loved ones, and threaten prosecution—fucking CRIMINAL PROSECUTION—of those who would attend me.

They did this to us on purpose. I firmly believe that.

I’m not saying I want to burn it all to the goddamn ground. But I am keeping my matches handy.

54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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They are NOT unintended consequences (Original Post) momta Jul 2022 OP
Yep - I think of this whenever I hear the phrase "exceptional country" - exceptionally stupid walkingman Jul 2022 #1
Since everything trump touches dies, it would follow that his followers could too. And since housecat Jul 2022 #11
Problem is, he has a lot of young followers too. oldsoftie Jul 2022 #13
seriously? not disinformation? young and educated for trump? housecat Jul 2022 #47
Yes. I deal with them every day. Highly educated. Professionals. oldsoftie Jul 2022 #50
Come to think of it I dealt with them before I retired. They seemed so unhinged that housecat Jul 2022 #54
I think it will surprise a lot of people in the wider community (ie not activists) genxlib Jul 2022 #2
And even assaults & murder. To try to keep it quiet oldsoftie Jul 2022 #14
Your turning "outlaw" speaks to millions of citizens Eyeball_Kid Jul 2022 #3
Cruelty, pain, suffering, death are all part of their plan. Irish_Dem Jul 2022 #4
Sadly agree Timeflyer Jul 2022 #9
Agree completely. Their wrathful God of retribution demands harsh punishment. sop Jul 2022 #33
Oh yes. All of us non-GOP folks apparently are deep sinners who must be punished. Irish_Dem Jul 2022 #44
If (forced) pregnancy risks death, is that not attempted murder? Nictuku Jul 2022 #5
Yes! momta Jul 2022 #6
The digital age will insure the horror stories reach the general public, unlike the past. CrispyQ Jul 2022 #7
Only shithole third world countries do this shit. onecaliberal Jul 2022 #8
Shithole third world theocracies. sop Jul 2022 #34
👆🏻👆🏻 onecaliberal Jul 2022 #38
I do think that there are some older men who are totally naive regarding childbirth. milestogo Jul 2022 #10
She's probably thinking, "I got through this seven times, with no problem," Wednesdays Jul 2022 #12
Just like those who caught covid & had no problems. "Its just the flu". oldsoftie Jul 2022 #15
Its exactly like that. milestogo Jul 2022 #18
You'd think that TENTS in hospital PARKING LOTS would be enough. oldsoftie Jul 2022 #48
Well, people who live in rural areas didn't see the same things. milestogo Jul 2022 #51
I wish she would watch my video... momta Jul 2022 #23
They are human sacrifices to the Christian god Farmer-Rick Jul 2022 #16
Christians believe that the death of Christ was the only sacrifice required. milestogo Jul 2022 #29
All true but the case that they advocate "the potential for death by inaction" could be made. jaxexpat Jul 2022 #40
How are you so sure? Farmer-Rick Jul 2022 #42
Power. It's all about power. orthoclad Jul 2022 #17
THIS! momta Jul 2022 #19
It gave men the power to maim and kill us under the guise of "it's natural." Warpy Jul 2022 #20
"harshest their mellow" momta Jul 2022 #21
I stole it from "WKRP in Cincinnatti" Warpy Jul 2022 #25
In many ways it's actually worse than pre-Roe. Novara Jul 2022 #22
He issued a "guidance" saying that federal law trumps state law momta Jul 2022 #26
I know that. My question is whether this can be issued as an EO. Novara Jul 2022 #27
I'm with you. momta Jul 2022 #30
Exactly Novara Jul 2022 #32
I agree. momta Jul 2022 #36
He used his worst obstructionism on Obama Novara Jul 2022 #37
Amen, sisters Hekate Jul 2022 #24
Republicans know women will die dlk Jul 2022 #28
In fact... momta Jul 2022 #31
Yes, the cruelty is the point dlk Jul 2022 #49
Either they're cemented in denial, or they suffer from calimary Jul 2022 #35
Killing women is a given. It's a feature, not a bug. onecaliberal Jul 2022 #39
DEFINITELY! So they know what's possible to restore calimary Jul 2022 #43
K&R Solly Mack Jul 2022 #41
End game IMHO is dumb workers for the rich who will do anything even for scraps. Brainfodder Jul 2022 #45
The cruelty and the barbarity is the point...nt Wounded Bear Jul 2022 #46
pre roe, chicago's cook county hospital, the largest public hosp in the country had a whole ward mopinko Jul 2022 #52
The outlaw court, the Subversive 6, tries to rewrite the Constitution in their image Hermit-The-Prog Jul 2022 #53

walkingman

(7,997 posts)
1. Yep - I think of this whenever I hear the phrase "exceptional country" - exceptionally stupid
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:25 AM
Jul 2022

in the last few years.

housecat

(3,132 posts)
11. Since everything trump touches dies, it would follow that his followers could too. And since
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:21 AM
Jul 2022

Trump is a 100% lying monster, why believe anything his followers say, including SCROTUS

oldsoftie

(13,107 posts)
13. Problem is, he has a lot of young followers too.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:55 AM
Jul 2022

Educated ones at that. I can't figure them out but they are here

oldsoftie

(13,107 posts)
50. Yes. I deal with them every day. Highly educated. Professionals.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 06:04 PM
Jul 2022

One guy constantly posts "joke memes" about Biden and gas prices with the "but at least we don't have any more mean tweets" line. Thats their little dig. At least he's not a conspiracy guy though. Another one; software engineer, is totally down the rabbit hole. Thinks fraud has been proven in GA & AZ etc. Left FB because they are so "controlling" and their fact checks are fake. I think he resides on PArler now.
However, I also know of two (1 male, 1 female) who were definitely pro trump but the abortion decision has totally changed them. Even posting about it on FB; which was a REAL shock. I live in a pretty high volume "pro life cause God says so" area. And both are very religious people. But this set both of them off. I have a feeling there may have been some personal knowledge of a case or something. And if it happened with them, I think there are likely several others who will feel the same way across the country.

housecat

(3,132 posts)
54. Come to think of it I dealt with them before I retired. They seemed so unhinged that
Wed Jul 20, 2022, 07:10 PM
Jul 2022

I just ignored them for decades. i couldn't get it through my head that people with PhD's could be so stupid.

genxlib

(5,579 posts)
2. I think it will surprise a lot of people in the wider community (ie not activists)
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:26 AM
Jul 2022

Abortion has been the rug that a lot things have been swept under. I think people are going to be shocked how much unpleasantness is revealed.

More fully pregnant teens, pregnant children, pregnant mistresses, maternal mortality, addiction babies, etc.

A lot of it has been put out of sight and out of mind for fifty years. People aren't really prepared to see what is coming

Eyeball_Kid

(7,520 posts)
3. Your turning "outlaw" speaks to millions of citizens
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:30 AM
Jul 2022

who have lost confidence in the final arbiter of the Rule of Law. The USSC MUST have the backing of the nation in order to function. With the Dobbs decision, they clearly do not. The Court doesn't get respect because they don't deserve it. Christo-fascism has its problems mostly because it's not compatible with the Constitution. The USSC tried to shoe-horn their beliefs into settled law, and massive suffering and turmoil are the result.

Irish_Dem

(52,909 posts)
4. Cruelty, pain, suffering, death are all part of their plan.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:35 AM
Jul 2022

Just like the useless torture of suspects at Gitmo.

Like cops with knees on the necks of black males.

Letting people die of horrible Covid deaths.

Letting school children get mowed down with assault rifles.

Now letting women die of horrible complications from pregnancy.

The sociopaths who now make up the GOP are ruthless and sadistic.
They like to inflict pain on others, they get off on the pain and the power trip.

Terrorizing and inflicting pain, also serves to demoralize a population, to make them surrender, give up, makes them docile and obedient.

Same thing Putin is doing in Ukraine at a much more intense level.

Irish_Dem

(52,909 posts)
44. Oh yes. All of us non-GOP folks apparently are deep sinners who must be punished.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:48 PM
Jul 2022

And harshly until we see the light.

Why do I feel like I am actually living now in a bad movie script?

Nictuku

(3,713 posts)
5. If (forced) pregnancy risks death, is that not attempted murder?
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:39 AM
Jul 2022

Rape should be considered attempted murder.

CrispyQ

(37,039 posts)
7. The digital age will insure the horror stories reach the general public, unlike the past.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:44 AM
Jul 2022

It won't change the zealots minds, but maybe it will mobilize rest of us to fight this insanity.

Seen on FB: My favorite season is the fall of the patriarchy.

milestogo

(16,830 posts)
10. I do think that there are some older men who are totally naive regarding childbirth.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 10:57 AM
Jul 2022

They consider it womens business and they shut their eyes and cover their ears.

But since one of the justices who did this is a woman who has given birth 7 times, there is no excuse. She has to know the risks and complications that can happen with pregnancy.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

Wednesdays

(18,265 posts)
12. She's probably thinking, "I got through this seven times, with no problem,"
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:25 AM
Jul 2022

"So, everyone else should get through it with no problem, too."

oldsoftie

(13,107 posts)
15. Just like those who caught covid & had no problems. "Its just the flu".
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:57 AM
Jul 2022

I hate to say it but I have a list of people I know who really need to spend a few days on a ventilator with the shit they spout

milestogo

(16,830 posts)
18. Its exactly like that.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:02 PM
Jul 2022

I know a nurse who got pulled into Covid care because she had experience caring for patients on ventilators. A 15 minute conversation with her would cure anyone of their disbelief that this is a very serious disease.

oldsoftie

(13,107 posts)
48. You'd think that TENTS in hospital PARKING LOTS would be enough.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 05:52 PM
Jul 2022

All over the country. In red & blue areas. But nooooooooo

milestogo

(16,830 posts)
51. Well, people who live in rural areas didn't see the same things.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 07:18 PM
Jul 2022

But it was on the news, if someone was paying attention.

momta

(4,098 posts)
23. I wish she would watch my video...
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:16 PM
Jul 2022

I've posted it here a couple of times, but basically...

Many of the women in my family know (at least they've known since the nineties when we discovered it) that going into any pregnancy they have about a 70% chance of miscarriage. And most of them live in Texas.

In case you're interested:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017747058

Farmer-Rick

(10,648 posts)
16. They are human sacrifices to the Christian god
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 11:58 AM
Jul 2022

Ok, not in all cases will women forced into birth die, but a lot of them will, and a lot of them will be permanently injured and psychologically damaged. And this is NEEDLESS. There is no need to force these horrors onto women. The risk to a woman's life, health and sanity are much greater then Christians would like you to believe. Abortion use to prevent a lot of these very risky pregnancies from killing mothers.....not anymore.

"Every year in the U.S., nearly 4 million women give birth, the vast majority without anything going amiss for themselves or their babies. But more than 135 expectant and new mothers a day — or roughly 50,000 a year, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention — endure dangerous and even life-threatening complications that often leave them wounded, weakened, traumatized, financially devastated, unable to bear more children, or searching in vain for answers about what went wrong." https://www.npr.org/2017/12/22/572298802/nearly-dying-in-childbirth-why-preventable-complications-are-growing-in-u-s

There is no moral, scientific or social reason to prevent abortions. The only reason to force women to give birth is because some crazy preachers and priests think their imaginary Christian god wants it that way. It is ALL based on religion, the Christian religion to be exact. So this leads me to the conclusion that Christians believe that killing and hurting a human will please their super sky daddy.

They are promoting human sacrifices just like that human sacrifice practiced by hunter-gatherers in Europe back in the Upper Paleolithic (26,000 to 8,000 B.C.). The researchers found that the rate of multiple burials (two or more people buried at the same time) was unusually high during the Upper Paleolithic, about one in five.https://www.livescience.com/59514-cultures-that-practiced-human-sacrifice/3.html

So it seems American Christians today, with their female human sacrifices, are imitating the behavior of European savages from 26,000 to 8,000 B.C.

Talk about regression.

milestogo

(16,830 posts)
29. Christians believe that the death of Christ was the only sacrifice required.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:31 PM
Jul 2022

Yes, they are jerks, but they are not advocating human sacrifices.

jaxexpat

(7,226 posts)
40. All true but the case that they advocate "the potential for death by inaction" could be made.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:38 PM
Jul 2022

In my mind, that's like being an accomplice to murder by playing a supporting role in the actual homicide(s).
This whole thing is not too removed from the witch trials of colonial Massachusetts. They say it's the "evil" ones who deal in abortion who are at fault but the lethal consequences of their control are plainly evil.

Due to my plumbing, I have no right to an opinion on the issue of abortion but I can see as well as anyone. This will all go badly for everyone. To deny a human right that has become an accepted facet of society is tyranny and will not be long tolerated.

Farmer-Rick

(10,648 posts)
42. How are you so sure?
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 03:03 PM
Jul 2022

They advocate for policies that kill people because their God wants it that way. How is that not a human sacrifice?

orthoclad

(3,091 posts)
17. Power. It's all about power.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:00 PM
Jul 2022

Words that don't apply:
hypocrisy
pain
justice
honesty
principles
consistency
reason
law
equality
fairness
god
and many more high-sounding words

Words that apply:
money
ownership
power

momta

(4,098 posts)
19. THIS!
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:03 PM
Jul 2022

They don't hear anything we say. They don't care. Nothing about what they do is logical or even popular. They figured out how to rig the system in their favor, and they're gonna take all they can get before we have a chance to un-rig it.

Warpy

(112,208 posts)
20. It gave men the power to maim and kill us under the guise of "it's natural."
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:08 PM
Jul 2022

No, it is not. Women have always used abortion, the local midwife was usually pretty creative. I was women's business and women took care of it.

The main historical alternative to abortion was infanticide, also more widely practiced than has been acknowledged.

Most men have no idea what happens to us, they only know where to stuff it in. They don't want to know what happens to us, it probably harshes their mellow.

These laws are going to prove so disastrous that they will be challenged in court and they will be overturned. Lawsuits against doctors who failed to provide timely and appropriate care to women with lift threatening conditions will skyrocket and insurance giants will begin to shriek for an end to them. And since women mean nothing and money rules, that's when those laws will start to be amended.

In the meantime, vote Democratic and if you're a woman under 45, vote with your feet. Leave slave states to the would be tyrants.

Novara

(5,995 posts)
22. In many ways it's actually worse than pre-Roe.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:12 PM
Jul 2022

At least back then a woman could get a D & C for a dead fetus. A woman could get a medically-necessary abortion in order to save her life.

What happens when the first woman dies because she was not allowed a life-saving abortion and her family sues? The lawsuit would be an unintended consequence - for the hospital and doctor who treated her.

And that brings me to this question: why are we not seeing doctors and hospitals speaking out against this barbarism? They stand to be held liable when they choose not to save a woman's life, even in states where abortion is outlawed, because Biden said they have to give life-saving abortions.

Can he issue that in an executive order, does anybody know?

momta

(4,098 posts)
26. He issued a "guidance" saying that federal law trumps state law
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:22 PM
Jul 2022

and that doctors are protected if they perform life-saving, emergency abortions.

Texas is suing him over it...naturally.

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/14/texas-biden-emergency-abortion/

Novara

(5,995 posts)
27. I know that. My question is whether this can be issued as an EO.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:29 PM
Jul 2022

Guidance can be ignored. Well, it's obvious it is being ignored. I don't think guidance has any enforceable strength.

Hm, initial googling indicates he could issue this as an executive order. It's obvious it would be challenged, but he could issue it as more than "guidance."

DO IT.

momta

(4,098 posts)
30. I'm with you.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:37 PM
Jul 2022

And yeah, of course it will be challenged.

(But it would be a lot more legitimate that some of TFG's EOs that were specifically written to try to enrich him and his buddies, and to burn the planet to a crisp. )

Novara

(5,995 posts)
32. Exactly
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 12:57 PM
Jul 2022

Obama didn't push things and it doesn't seem Biden will either. At least he hasn't done it so far. The other side has absolutely no qualms against issuing illegal orders and then fighting over them. Even if this SCOTUS would eventually strike it down, even one woman's life saved would have made it worth it to issue this in an EO.

I'd like to see some goddamn fire for once.

Do it and then deal with the fallout. Maybe if Obama went around McConnell when he held up Garland's nomination to the SCOTUS, he might not have had the seat stolen. I think at the time the SCOTUS might have sided with him that the Senate relinquished its advice and consent role, so it would have been fine for Obama to go ahead with a nomination. Anyway, that's water under the bridge, but as you can see, I'm not over my resentment.

momta

(4,098 posts)
36. I agree.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:28 PM
Jul 2022

I hadn't heard that particular argument, but I wish the hell that Obama had done that.

I place almost all of the blame for our current problems--from the pandemic to the abortion ruling to the literal scorched earth--squarely at the feet Mitch McConnell.

Novara

(5,995 posts)
37. He used his worst obstructionism on Obama
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:32 PM
Jul 2022

And because Obama was way too cautious, it worked. And THAT set the tone for Rs obstructing every single thing just because they could. They used to at least attempt giving reasons for their obstructionism. Now they do it because it works.

I fear there's no shoving that back under its rock.

calimary

(82,619 posts)
35. Either they're cemented in denial, or they suffer from
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:24 PM
Jul 2022

an inability for objective long-term thinking. ESPECIALLY when it might mean accepting warnings or urgings or even just advice from a different mindset. If the Democrats are for it, then it must be anathema to everything they’ve been taught to believe.

And then again, with some of ‘em, they’re just content not to change any behavior to adapt - because when we’ve fucked everything up to a level of no return, then Jesus will come back and fix everything with just a wave of His hand.

onecaliberal

(34,344 posts)
39. Killing women is a given. It's a feature, not a bug.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 01:36 PM
Jul 2022

Young women should educate themselves about the days before Roe.

Brainfodder

(6,428 posts)
45. End game IMHO is dumb workers for the rich who will do anything even for scraps.
Tue Jul 19, 2022, 04:50 PM
Jul 2022

Way too many hard working but barely getting by people, and you want them to have MORE kids?

That comes off a bit sadistic?

mopinko

(70,980 posts)
52. pre roe, chicago's cook county hospital, the largest public hosp in the country had a whole ward
Wed Jul 20, 2022, 08:08 AM
Jul 2022

for 'septic abortions'. about 40 beds, iirc. it had a pervasive stench of rot and death.

even after roe- george dunne, a catholic, pres of the cook county board, woke up one morning, and decreed there would be no elective abortions at cook county, starting that day.
this is why the janes started.

we wont go back. illinois will be a free state, and open to all.

Hermit-The-Prog

(35,100 posts)
53. The outlaw court, the Subversive 6, tries to rewrite the Constitution in their image
Wed Jul 20, 2022, 08:45 AM
Jul 2022

Section 1 of the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. It is not written in mystic runes that only a select cabal can understand. It means what it says. By its Dobbs ruling, the Supreme Court elevated a parasite within a woman's body to personhood and endowed it with superior rights to her. She is held in indentured servitude to the state so long as that parasite is within her. Men do not have their rights subjugated to the parasite's newly created rights. This is undeniable unequal protection -- all persons who are not pregnant are better protected by the law, while all pregnant persons have their privileges and immunities severely restricted by law. The parasite is clearly not a citizen, as defined in the Constitution.

The Supreme Court is a rogue, outlaw court which is subverting the supreme law of the land and replacing it with extremist religious opinions.
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